Electric-man
476 posts
Aug 06, 2007
9:50 AM
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I have been told that the distance they tailride when their young is an indication of how far they will roll when they mature!
Agree or disagree?
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Val
"Wind Talker"
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Steve_uk
211 posts
Aug 06, 2007
10:08 AM
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Disagree
Last Edited by on Aug 06, 2007 10:08 AM
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
1485 posts
Aug 06, 2007
10:27 AM
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Redneckspeak = no bueno. Tailriders are culls.
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nicksiders
2019 posts
Aug 06, 2007
1:08 PM
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Do not agree
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Nick
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W@yne
593 posts
Aug 06, 2007
1:24 PM
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Never heard of that one before but i think its total BS.
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Regards
W@yne UK
Patience Perseverance Perfection
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Hayseedboy
41 posts
Aug 06, 2007
1:56 PM
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Kinda sounds suspicious to me. That said, I am looking for a hunting partner here at the end of the month when Snipe season opens. Any takers?
:)
Larry
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"Never Moon a Werewolf!"
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Electric-man
477 posts
Aug 06, 2007
3:01 PM
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Didn't say that I was agreeing with it either! I bought some ^%@^&s a couple of years ago that did this, and the seller assured me this was the case! Never came true so I got rid of them! Now a few of my Turners are starting this, so I thought, well, guess I'll ask, hope nobody makes me feel stupid! LOL
Sometimes these sellers will shovel us a little sh^$ to sell some birds. Sometimes I would rather ask than spend a couple years learning for myself! Even at the price of my own dignity!LOL
About that snipe hunt, do I need my gun? LOL
Val
"Wind Talker"
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Richard
49 posts
Aug 06, 2007
3:27 PM
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I think should explain Mr. MCCORMICKLOFTS statement that all tail riders are calls. I think he just did not finish his statement.
I have young that will ride their tail until they learn to go over the top. this is usually occures the first few times they are in the air. these are not culls. Now it is another storry if the birds is rolling some distance and at the end of the roll rides it tail, yes these are culls.
Richard
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spinner jim
136 posts
Aug 06, 2007
3:39 PM
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Guys ,just to throw in my penny worth, when they tail-sit cut half-an-inch off the tail feathers, no promises but i was given this information by a brummy who has had birds for donkeys years and it works,jim uk.
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sac_spinners
186 posts
Aug 06, 2007
3:46 PM
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I would disagree with that also...
Chor
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spinner jim
137 posts
Aug 06, 2007
4:03 PM
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Chor,i dont post to wind people up,i have seen this done,try it if it dont work what you got to lose,by shortening the tail feathers it enables the bird to turn faster,if the bird dont have it to start with it wont make no difference,jim uk ,Home of the Birmingham Roller.
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JMUrbon
288 posts
Aug 06, 2007
4:28 PM
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well Jim I can't say it won't work but sounds like it belongs with the snipe hunting gear to me.LOL
Val that is totally a false statement and you were definately shoveled some crap on that one. You will find however that some families of birds tail ride as young birds and some don't. However even those that do usually only do it for a short time. Good luck with them but dont cull them because somebody else says they are culls. Fly them out unless you are short on space or they are causing trouble. JMHO. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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SiDLoVE
30 posts
Aug 06, 2007
4:41 PM
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Depends on the family of birds....i wouldnt cull anything till it reached maturity!!! Due to the fact am low on birds anyway ...LOL
Last Edited by on Aug 06, 2007 4:42 PM
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Newflyer
134 posts
Aug 06, 2007
4:48 PM
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I was also told that after the tail riding, in a matter of time the roll will follow.. And it held TRUE for my birds.
Paul
Last Edited by on Aug 06, 2007 4:49 PM
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nicksiders
2022 posts
Aug 06, 2007
4:57 PM
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When they are real young part of trying to flip over backward is a tail ride, but the length of the tail ride has no bearing on the length of the roll when the roll begins to occurr.
My opinion.........only
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Nick
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ROLLERMAN
150 posts
Aug 06, 2007
5:10 PM
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Almost all my birds tail ride for the 1st couple of weeks then start to roll, I have found with my family of birds if they dont tail ride they come into the roll late.
AL
Last Edited by on Aug 06, 2007 5:12 PM
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MILO
389 posts
Aug 06, 2007
5:27 PM
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I don't like them really. The birds I have flip. They will clap a bit, and get sideways on their first few days coming into roll...but I don't like to see them tailride. I most certainly don't like to see them do it deep...lol It's not to say that it is a trait to get away from in all families, just that those don't develop into anything great in mine. The good ones over here, are snappy from the get-go. JMO
c
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
1488 posts
Aug 06, 2007
5:32 PM
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The only time I will ever see a tail ride is in the first couple of days the babies are flown, usually those first couple of days when they are scattered all over the sky. After that, not even when coming into the roll. Mine come in with flips, not tail rides. In the past I've had some that would tailride for 10 feet or so with some flips in the few days before they would start rolling. I should have clarified my statement that tailriders are culls by including that any bird that is capable of rolling, but tail rides is a cull. And I stand firm by that opinion. Once they are capable of turning over, I better not see a tailride from them. My best birds always come in with real fast flips or short, quick rolls. Usually the eventual dishraggers were the ones that did something funky when coming into the roll. But that's just my birds.
Last Edited by on Aug 06, 2007 5:34 PM
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1536 posts
Aug 06, 2007
5:54 PM
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Good birds in my family do not tail ride. I rarely see a tail ride (I do not remember the last time I saw one from my birds), I would rather a bird did not roll than tail ride.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Check Out Our Pigeon Supply Store
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dave
338 posts
Aug 06, 2007
6:18 PM
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Tony,
I believe that someone that started you with your family would cull any youngsters that would tail ride. He wanted liked them flipping only and no tail riding.
I think that some birds will tail ride at the end of a spin cause they don't really quite know how to come out of a roll properly yet or are freaked out. Some will tail ride and some will twist a bit. Some will soon sort it out while some never will. If they don't find a way to work it out then they are culls like Brian said.
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ROLLERMAN
151 posts
Aug 06, 2007
6:32 PM
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Looks like i need to go out too my loft a kill all my of my birds, Dont know how im going to tell them there all culls and i have to break there necks, or should i tell them there freaks because there not suppose to roll . because they were tail sitters, lol
al
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Missouri-Flyer
788 posts
Aug 06, 2007
6:44 PM
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tho there are some very knowledgeable guys posting on this thread, I have not heard 1 of you mention anything about the age of a bird when it goes on the wing.
My experience shows that the younger a bird is on the wing, the more tail riding I have seen, and for a very short time.
On the other hand, the few that I have placed into the kitbox at an older age for some unknown reason, were the ones that always skipped the tailriding/dish ragging and went right to the flips.
Soooo, it is my opinion that if you are one of those that get your birds on the wing at a later age, are the ones that skip the tailriding experience that you say your birds dont do...Hard to believe that you have birds that dont go thru that stage. Try getting them out of the breeder pen sooner if ya wanna know if they will tail ride..I bet ya they will.
Just my $.03
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Jerry
Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
Last Edited by on Aug 06, 2007 6:48 PM
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Electric-man
479 posts
Aug 06, 2007
7:55 PM
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My Turners are the ones that do this alot! Usually just for a few days then the start rolling early compared to anything else!Haven't noticed it with the others really!They are all started about the same age!After they do this a couple of weeks, they seem to tighten back up and wait for the later maturing birds to start! My oldest kit birds are just Jan/Feb so I'm not getting rid of anything yet!
My Urban line is even younger, but they seem to just start flipping! Just starting to get some short rolls out of a few of them! Won't be flying any Rubies or Higgins till next year!
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Val
"Wind Talker"
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pacos bill
7 posts
Aug 06, 2007
8:11 PM
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At the risk of looking very dum. I will throw my hat in the ring on tail sliding. Not all birds tail slide, but in my experience a young bird 60 to 90 days old the first 2 or 3 times up will tail slide, but once they do one flip they start perfecting the roll, and will be performing at 4 to 5 mo. and should never tail slide again, or its junk.
The ones that dont tail slide, do not come into the roll
untill 4 or 5 mo. old, and peak very late.
However I think it was on this site. I read of the Red Headed Hen after being retired, had never been flown, and was put in the kit to enjoy flying out her last years. It was stated that just like a young bird she started out tail sliding and developed into the great roller her 514 blood was noted for.
My birds were of old Pensom / Smith early 1950 stuff.
I am now starting with all new stock as I lost my entire loft in a storm some time back. The new birds Iam working with some of the young slide, some dont. Only time will tell on the new stuff.
PACOS BILL
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sac_spinners
187 posts
Aug 06, 2007
8:12 PM
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Jim Uk, i actually wasn't disagreeing with you...i was actually ansering to what Val posted, i don't believe that how deep they tail ride is how deep they're gonna roll...but i do believe that the shorter the tail gives them a better chance at velocity though JMHO....
Chor
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Donny James
12 posts
Aug 06, 2007
8:22 PM
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i've see birds ride their tails down and later on see that turn into the roller and how far they ride their tails down thats how far they rolled ...............donny james
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1537 posts
Aug 06, 2007
8:24 PM
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"Tony, I believe that someone that started you with your family would cull any youngsters that would tail ride. He wanted liked them flipping only and no tail riding..."
Hey Dave, you are right, from day one, my birds had a tendency to not tail ride at all, regardless of the age when they went to the air.
I believe it is a trait in this family and can be maintained or not, by breeding selection.
Sal Estrada and I have had this very conversation. We have both noticed that they tend to start with moderate to lightning fast flips.
The ones that have slow lazy rolling, rarely improve and are culled to make room for the others doing it right.
In my opinion, it is just a trait in certain families and can be maintained through proper selection.
For example, early on, I feel I had too many birds that bumped on landing so I began selecting breeders with more control of the roll, specifically on landing. So now, at this point, my birds have few accidents.
Training conditions and feeding can also influence the likelihood of accidents(especially when breaking down a bird for competition or to get maximum rolling performance).
In addition, breeding choices can also have an influence, for example, when I put successive generations of lavs together, I get a "juiced up" spinner that lives on the edge and has to be be managed differently than offspring from say red checks.
When I breed these back to my blues, it seems to put the control back into the offspring.
Now, I am only talking about traits and tendency's in my Ruby Roller family.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Check Out Our Pigeon Supply Store
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Dooleys rollers
13 posts
Aug 06, 2007
8:46 PM
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val dont listen to them if (your young birds) dont tail ride or flip or do some thing they are junk i would rather see something then racing homers fly in a damn circle and thats my 2 cents lol
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1538 posts
Aug 06, 2007
8:53 PM
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Dooley Said:
" val dont listen to them if (your young birds) dont tail ride or flip or do some thing they are junk i would rather see something then racing homers fly in a damn circle and thats my 2 cents lol"
Hey Dooley, as for me, I made the point that I am talking about my family of rollers, not ALL rollers. Every established family is going to have traits that are key indicators for quality or not.
I would rather watch a bunch of homers fly in a circle than watch a bunch of my culls doing tail-rides. LOL
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Check Out Our Pigeon Supply Store
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dave
339 posts
Aug 06, 2007
8:55 PM
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Dooley,
Of course some young birds (squekers) tail ride but not all. Some family of birds keep on tailriding til they come into the roll. All families are different but if they are rolling good already and tail ride at the end, they are not worth much. If they don't fix it then they become culls.
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
1489 posts
Aug 06, 2007
9:10 PM
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Jerry, as I have mentioned several times, I put my young birds in the kit box about when they can stand and eat on their own. They are on the roof by their own choice about 10 days later, and on the wing about a week after that. My babies will tail ride occasionally the first few days flown. Once they start to kit, you won't see it anymore. On my last squeaker kit that I got up flying, the second day they were out, and all over the sky of course, there was one I saw tail ride, then I saw it tail ride again and flip a few times. I have never seen it do it again since then. I'm sure every family and even every pairing will produce something different than the next guy. I don't want them really to do much of anything but start kitting and learn to butterfly in the first month or so. After that I prefer to see fast, zippy flips which is what I've seen lead to the better performers here.
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pacos bill
8 posts
Aug 06, 2007
9:11 PM
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Hey Tony I agree lavs are almost always as you say living on the edge. I have not noticed any other colors as hot as the lavs. Do you know of any. I know Hector Coya has a white to lav type colored lace, that is very hot and produces spining off spring of any color, also. I am working with a line off of this bird now, plus some good old Pensom 514 stuff from Gene G. and red head hen line from Hectors Bob scott blood. I would be interested in your thoughts on color breeding Hector and Gene G. have been a great help.
Pacos Bill
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Dooleys rollers
14 posts
Aug 06, 2007
9:35 PM
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I am just stiring the pot, If you all would of read his first post he just asked if that was a good indication of how deep they would roll? you all just got off the question , I was not saying your birds are junk Tony. just TRYING TO GET A FEW LAUGHS NO hard feelings
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Hayseedboy
42 posts
Aug 06, 2007
10:42 PM
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Hey Val,
To answer your real question. You won't need a gun and I'll provide the gunny sack, stick and tin can.
Hope this cleared that up....
Oh by the way, would love to see your birds. Spinners, Flippers or Tail Draggers :)
LR
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"Any place is walking distance if you have the time."
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1539 posts
Aug 07, 2007
4:36 AM
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Val Said
"I have been told that the distance they tailride when their young is an indication of how far they will roll when they mature! Agree or disagree?"
Disagree.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Check Out Our Pigeon Supply Store
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1540 posts
Aug 07, 2007
4:39 AM
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Dooley Said
"I am just stiring the pot, If you all would of read his first post he just asked if that was a good indication of how deep they would roll? you all just got off the question , I was not saying your birds are junk Tony. just TRYING TO GET A FEW LAUGHS NO hard feelings"
Hey Dooley, I did not think you said that at all. I apologize if you received that impression from my response.
Keep stirring! LOL
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Check Out Our Pigeon Supply Store
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motherlodelofts
1902 posts
Aug 07, 2007
7:42 AM
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Val, that old wives tale has been around a long time, I have also heard it as a way for them to measure thier depth LOL
As for my birds, they will do it the first few days of flying and then quit , although one time when I believe that Paul Fullerton was here I had a bird tail ride all the way to the ground from a couple of hundred feet, and then never tail rode again.
Scott
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MILO
390 posts
Aug 07, 2007
8:03 AM
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Let define the tail-rider, just so everyone is on the same page. In what I have seen, the tail rider is usually a young bird, that instead of putting it's head back and turning over into a flipping motion, is unable to make this flip, and falls straight down with it's tail feathers and rump feathers sort of "parachuting" and slowing it's decent. It almost gives the appearance that it is walking backwards. Like Marilyn Monroe with her dress blowing up and her trying to hold it down....LOL Is this an accurate description? Some can actually do this for 30 to 40 feet.
c
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SiDLoVE
31 posts
Aug 07, 2007
10:06 AM
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Hey Milo i liked your post...very creative..would be nice if Monroe could be in my yard and show me...LOL
Last Edited by on Aug 07, 2007 10:07 AM
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Santandercol
1311 posts
Aug 07, 2007
9:35 PM
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Marilyn Monroe,EH?Now ya got me thinking!!
Hey John Dooley.Don't knock the Homers,EH!!Them circles soon turn into zig-zags then straight lines all the way home.I live on the main road going round the island and I'm sure one of these days them tight circles low down is gonna give me some business!!!!You see,,,one of the hats I wear is burying human ashes in the cemetary and setting headstones.
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Kelly
Last Edited by on Aug 07, 2007 9:37 PM
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Otis
56 posts
Aug 08, 2007
6:37 AM
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OK, Is the tail ride an early indicator of resistance to the roll, or has that bird not yet learned that the culmination of a roll starts with use of its wings and tail feathers. (Good aerodynamics theory on the roll Pacos Bill)I don't prefer tail riders and my best have always started with a quick flip. Yes I have culled tail riders as old as 1 year, who were usually larger, stiff, roll resistant cocks looking to give me more space in the kit loft. To answer your question directly Val, tail riding a certain depth does not guarantee a bird will later roll that same depth. On the contrary, I believe a bird will never achieve that tail sit depth and leads me to see that bird being more towards stiiff than in control of the roll or unstable! Anyone have a tail sitter turn into a real good one? I haven't! Otis
Last Edited by on Aug 08, 2007 1:28 PM
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