motherlodelofts
1904 posts
Aug 07, 2007
7:54 AM
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What do you all consider a hot bird ? isn't that just a kind word for unstable (cull) ? Why would anyone put value into them ?
Scott
Last Edited by on Aug 07, 2007 7:55 AM
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W@yne
595 posts
Aug 07, 2007
8:56 AM
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Scotty
Could you please describe a hot bird?
It is not a word that we over here use describing a birds performance.
PS Where you been keeping yourself these days stranger Lol you come out of hibernation at last.
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Regards
W@yne UK
Patience Perseverance Perfection
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J_Star
1108 posts
Aug 07, 2007
9:08 AM
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Scott,
Good post. I consider a hot bird is the one who is easily stimulated. A bird that is not extreamly active but to the point when another bird rolls it easily triggers him to do the same. those birds also if you stimulate them a bit could become a bumper when leaving or landing.
If the bird is stimulated properly on a certain day, he could give the elusion of a champion but on an average day, he is not very stable.
Jay
Last Edited by on Aug 07, 2007 9:10 AM
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birdman
353 posts
Aug 07, 2007
9:36 AM
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A bird with a high propensity to roll with good velocity is 'hot'.
In my book that doesn't make it a cull unless it is has kitting problems or other issues.
I would rather have a few birds bordering on what I consider 'hot' than bordering on the stiff side.
Stiff birds = Boring.... zzzzzzz
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nicksiders
2025 posts
Aug 07, 2007
9:47 AM
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A hot bird to me is a bird who rolls excessively. It is the bird who seldom breaks with the kit. Because he rolls excessively he generally is an out-bird; unable to kit. He will roll several times per minute usually all by himself. The bird is a cull.
Stiff birds are boring and so is the hot bird. They both anger me.
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Nick
Last Edited by on Aug 07, 2007 9:50 AM
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classicpony
294 posts
Aug 07, 2007
10:09 AM
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I thought a hot bird was a bird that has kited and rolled, landing with it beak wide open and panting ready to get back in the kitbox for some shade, eats and cold wet drink before jumping on it perch for some good talk about how hot the day is.
My mistake, I was looking at this all wrong again. :)
Jim
@thebirdhouse
Last Edited by on Aug 07, 2007 2:40 PM
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1544 posts
Aug 07, 2007
10:20 AM
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To my way of thinking, a "hot" bird is one that is not for amateurs, it takes more experience to understand its needs and how to care for it. The amount of and the kind of feed may be different for this bird than rest of the kit, it kits well, it works harder and more often and does come down having given its all.
Its the one you couldn't take your eyes off of when it was in the air.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Check Out Our Pigeon Supply Store
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dave
340 posts
Aug 07, 2007
10:41 AM
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To me a hot bird can mean two things.
1. A bird that rolls too much and has a hard time flying with the kit. An unstable bird that will probably bounce also. I don't like this type.
2. A bird that is just smoking in the air but is stable. I like this type.
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nicksiders
2026 posts
Aug 07, 2007
10:49 AM
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dave(Mr. Vang),
You hit it...........that is what I was trying to say in my gobbligook way.
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Nick
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
1490 posts
Aug 07, 2007
10:50 AM
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I agree with Dave.
There are different types and levels of heat. "Heat" is anything or any level of performance that exceeds what we typically consider the managable ideal. I use the term Hot to describe a bird that rolls more than it should and has a fast trigger, they are typically pretty fantastic deep too. As long as they show the desire to return to the kit and don't go crashing into everything in the yard every time flown, I have no problem with them. Several of my very top producing birds were pretty hot birds in their youth, to the point I couldn't decide whether to cull them or try them in the stock pen. For some of them, I'm soooo glad I gave them a chance, they changed my program with those families ten fold.
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W@yne
596 posts
Aug 07, 2007
11:04 AM
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For example on the positive side.
I have a bird a yearling that can spin 3 times a minute every time i have it out and is one of the best quality birds in my kit of yearlings goes straight back to the kit every time and no kitting issues at all and is always picked out when friends come over watching my birds. It is also very stable bird and will still put the rolls in no matter if the rest aint working. The bird IS 100% Stable because i live in a built up area and unstable birds dont last long here .
The negative side of things i think it must wear blinkers because it will roll with or without the rest of the team is this a hot bird or not???
Because i wouldnt hesitate to try and get a round from it to see what it brings.
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Regards
W@yne UK
Patience Perseverance Perfection
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Last Edited by on Aug 07, 2007 11:34 AM
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
1491 posts
Aug 07, 2007
11:37 AM
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I wouldn't consider it hot until you got to the last comments. A bird which habitually rolls by itself is, yes, hot. That doesn't mean it wouldn't work out if you decided to breed from it. It all depends on what you need. If a person has stiffs that only roll now and then, a bird like this can add some spring to their kits, or there is a good chance it will. On the other hand, if you are satisfied with the frequency of your current birds, there is no point in trying to use the bird. I think this is where the fine line comes in. You have to put a value on what is important. And when you do, sometimes something that we really don't prefer has to become at least temporarily acceptable. There are no perfect pigeons, but some that come close. Yah, yah, I'm sure I'll get blasted by the knuckleheads who will say...."no, don't use anything that isn't perfect without faults or else you will raise nothing but fautly pigeons".
We all need something in our birds. No one has the perfect family and no one in there right mind is going to sell or give you their best birds. You have to take steps up the ladder and often a bird such as the one Wayne described can help in a stiff family of birds. You won't know until you try.
On the flip side the price for such an adventure can produce nothing you want too. I've tried some birds that were hot, rolled exceptionally well, but were always rolling by themselves. There performance was triggered in their own mind, regardless of what the kit was doing. For the most part, they produced similar birds. I did raise some that were great performers that didn't have this problem.
Nothing is really as taboo as we make it out to be. It all depends on what you need and if you are willing try something to see if it shows positive results. Breeding pigeons isn't like making a financial decision.
Last Edited by on Aug 07, 2007 11:41 AM
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dmitch
38 posts
Aug 07, 2007
11:56 AM
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Well what is hot kit?
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fhtfire
1076 posts
Aug 07, 2007
11:59 AM
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A hot bird...or even a hot side of a family. These birds tend to be LOADED with roll. Are NOT chronic bumpers but have made a mistake on occasion. In the kit they seem to be involved in every break. They show control but tend to have accidents. They have no trouble jerking the chain in the break. My hot birds tend to be a little deeper. My Hot birds tend to kit real good, they just tend to have accidents every NOW AND THEN. To me hot is borderline OVERCOOKED or Chronic bumper. Like Tony said...they need a little more care in feeding...NOT feeding by themselves...but more or less you have to be carefull if you get them in to good of shape...they would be the first birds to turn into a lawn dart....if taken "over the edge" in feeding.
A hot bird is not a Chronic bumper to me...that is an over cooked bird with lack of control. A hot bird is not a roll down...that too is an over cooked bird. A hot bird is not your ideal roller...your ideal roller is one that never bumps or makes mistakes. The hot birds tend to really work a little to hard. Not as mentally strong. My HOT birds tend to cool off as they get older and tend to be Hot when they are young.
I don't mind putting a little heat in the stock loft. I have found with MY birds that the hot bird do not usually pass it on and my ideal birds tend to throw more heat...as nick would say..weird ain't it..LOL
I have a hot bird that I put in the stock loft this year. He was a blue bar cock...He was in my A-team...was deep fast and jerked the chain in almost every break. Very high strung on the perch...but ALWAYS kitted and had a HEART...but he did crash on occasion...but those were few and far in between. He really straighted up when he hit the 1 year mark...but when he was at 6-8 months...I cringed when he would come in for a landing...He is very small and compact and was a top perch bird for his size. Even though he was HOT....I just had a gut feeling....still flying out his young.
I have really found that in the stock loft...you can have a Hot bird produce Top notch kit birds....Your best kit birds may produce over cooked or Stiff birds...and a "Good" kit bird...produce top quality spinners....it is all about finding what the bird produces and going with it...or recognizing a trend with certain pairs..or lines....within a couple generations you will see that certain lines or pairs continue to produce right on down the line and some produce so so and so on....those that continue to pass on the good traits...have the "strong" or "dominant" genes....
Anyway....I feel in my birds a Hot bird is not necessarily a cull...but if I have to feed a bird by itself...that is an overcooked bird and a cull...not time for babysitting...there are plenty of birds that can take that birds place....DON"T MESS WITH CULLS>>>they are a waste of perch space.....Hot birds are just that...Hot..or what I would call HIGH STRUNG!!! like me!!!
rock and ROLL
Paul
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J_Star
1113 posts
Aug 07, 2007
12:23 PM
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So Paul, can we equate you as a hot bird?
I read everybody's terminology in regard to hot birds, but reread my post, I summed it up all in one paragraph.
Dave, for number 2 in your post, we call those "on fire".
Jay
Last Edited by on Aug 07, 2007 12:33 PM
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Otis
55 posts
Aug 07, 2007
1:26 PM
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My 2 cents, Well there's hot- rolls with or without the kit, can be seen at times to roll behind the loft or a tree which will make you wonder if it didn't hit something. Most times you know it's time is coming when it will make that final mistake, because it is controlled by the roll, not in control of the roll. I don't like hot-too close to unstable!
Then there's heat...rolls with the kit and sometimes without it, making you wish the rest could and should have broke with that bird. If you just had 19 more just like it. Can alter it's depth from a fast, tight 30 ft. up high to a controlled 5 ft. right over the loft or any stationary object and make it look easy, as you can't even hear its feet touch when it lands. Birds with heat have inboard consistency that you can count on and are part of your first thoughts about birds that will eventually move to the breeder loft! I like birds with heat! Hot birds can depress you, cause somewhere, somehow-it's only a matter of time. I think we all should breed towards birds that have heat, but aren't hot! Otis
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nicksiders
2028 posts
Aug 07, 2007
3:49 PM
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Dwayne,
Are you going to the NBRC Convention? I am going with my daughter. I have the whole back seat open if you want to drive here and then with us the rest of the way. It is about 10 hours drive from here. I was going to fly, but my daughter wants to site see and she has vacation to burn.
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Nick
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Velo99
1248 posts
Aug 07, 2007
4:44 PM
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Hi Guys
I was waiting to see if anyone else would use the term "overcooked". I learned it and its definition from Paul a long time ago. Neither of which are desirable by my definition.
Since then I have formed my own defintion, I`ll keep it short and simple.
Hot is a bird thats just short of being stable. One might encounter mistakes and interesting sights from these birds as they perform. Generally decent enough to keep around if he doesn`t do himself in in an overexuberant moment. These are the ones that make it interesting.
Overcooked are the flippers. Consumed by the roll,can`t control it,usually exemplifies a weak bird. Sometimes will correct its performance to a degree but not likely.
Age is a factor in performance, and birds under eight months should not be judged too harshly. Personally I don`t cull except for stupid stuff till after the tenth month. When they get the adult plumage after the first seasonal moult there is a usually a change in some of the birds some good and some not. Then it is neccessary to sometimes retrain the birds and one has to figure out the new scheme to get them to co operate and become a unit once again. Otis had a great point in last sentance of his post.
I refer to a nice bird as having heat but not being hot.
Just my observations from my birds.
Good Luck
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V99
Flippin`The Bird!
http://www.bluedotloft.50megs.com
Last Edited by on Aug 07, 2007 4:53 PM
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Ballrollers
841 posts
Aug 07, 2007
6:32 PM
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Brian, Paul,List,
Excellent posts! Good topic, Scott. Your unstable culls, I refer to as the overcooked birds. Hot birds still have potential. Overcooked birds do not. It is apparrent that many of us mean different things when we speak of hot birds. The question for me is always how to handle hot birds. They are more sensitive to loft management...flying time....feed quality and feed amount....and age is definitely an issue. I have birds in my A-kit that bumped in their first year, but have not since their second and third years. But if I mismanage them, I can bring them crashing to the ground. Heat is necessary for work rate, but it can be heart-breaking. Those mistakes...your own and the pigeon's....can cost you good birds. It is exciting "living on the edge"! I'd much rather work with this level of performance than trying to starve a kit or break them down to get performance. You are correct, birdman...stiffs are boring...they are culls, and among the first to go in that 10-12 month stage at my lofts.
YITS,
Cliff
Last Edited by on Aug 07, 2007 6:40 PM
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motherlodelofts
1907 posts
Aug 07, 2007
8:14 PM
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Thanks everyone, `glad to see us back on the birds again which was my intent.
As far as my question , first, there is no doubt that stiffs suck so we need to throw that one out the window, besides this topic has nothing do with such birds, and it's interesting that some would even bring them up.
I disagree that birds have to be hot or borderline to be full of roll, or to have workrate , my goal in the breeding loft is to breed birds strong in charactor with a heavy impulse to roll.
I see it as a scale that is dictated by both charactor and roll impulse , and that scale slides, in other words a bird with strong charactor and heavy roll impulse is a bird that is solid as a rock that is loaded with roll.
That same bird with a low imulse to roll is a stiff ,but that low impulse on a weak charactor bird can be a problem.
FOR MYSELF I don't want birds that have to be babied (fed up) to keep from plowing dirt, nor birds with kitting problems or chronic bumpers.
Then we have those birds that fall in the gray area, that were a true pain in the ass(borderline) but tend to straighten out as they mature, when ever I get tempted with such a bird I think of those few that were just as good that never were a problem (strong charactor, heavy roll impulse), besides more times than not such birds were rolling when they shouldn't have been.
I think that we need to check our motives and think of what we are doing in the "long" term as to what we are building family wise , I might add that I every year I breed those birds that are borderline and birds that have to be babied .
Anymore the one's that I have to baby(keep fed up) are culled , sooner or later they allways disapear any way, the borderline birds I allways let them continue to tease me though, but whenever a bird screws me out of the blue more than likely it is such a bird.
In short, there is more to birds full roll than just needing to be unstable or borderline ,such birds are controlled by the roll , for MYSELF I will take a bird that is in control of the roll , which in turn makes it in control of it's actions , such birds can rip off 40 ft when at a safe ht. of tumble a few times when over the roof , in my book nothing else is worth making into stock.
Scott
Last Edited by on Aug 07, 2007 8:37 PM
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fhtfire
1077 posts
Aug 08, 2007
10:04 AM
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AMEN SCOTT!!!
Excellent post Scott...I think a lot of us are following your path and agree with what you have to say. Excellent post....you to Brian...
rock and ROLL
Paul
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smoke747
613 posts
Jan 24, 2008
3:24 PM
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Well put Mr. Cambell. I am trying tp breed a bird that as he gets older the impulse to respond to the kit increases, but with safety. have you noticed in some families the impulse to roll decreases? I am trying to avoid that completely.
smoke747
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Square
142 posts
Jan 24, 2008
5:22 PM
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here is my example of a hot bird, this bird is a excellent kit bird to date. however it is the last to trap everytime, unless it makes a cirtain approch to the splunket. the bird keeps me on the on the edge everytime it flys, this is a 07 bird and has been on the wing for a year never hit. its not a one legnth roller however it becomes a problem upon flying straight down off ledges.. kinda over weighs this when it is up with the kit, so i consider this a hot pigeon, however some would consider it a cull. I am a ferm believer in not wasting even a tablespoon of feed, however i will give this bird a chance..
Square..
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George R.
74 posts
Jan 27, 2008
9:39 PM
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Square
looks like that bird has some issues If it was mines I would cull it and the parents !
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SpinCityRollers
55 posts
Jan 28, 2008
9:08 AM
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lol
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Square
173 posts
Jan 28, 2008
9:18 AM
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LoL, yea what he said.. see you in the Vegas Roller Challenge, when it gets up and running, you and your little co-defiendant..
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SpinCityRollers
56 posts
Jan 28, 2008
9:25 AM
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lol
you guys are funny
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smoke747
677 posts
Jan 29, 2008
9:25 AM
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When I use the term hot bird, I am saying that this bird is a step above a rolldown. Hot birds have alot of roll. Be very careful when using them. Remember, what you put in them you will get out of them, and it does not always come when you expect it or how you expect it.
smoke747
Last Edited by on Jan 30, 2008 3:39 AM
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mcroller
99 posts
Jan 29, 2008
12:04 PM
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good posts guys.......jimmi
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