pacos bill
9 posts
Aug 07, 2007
10:52 PM
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I am sure most of us have seen the discovery video, of the Birmingham Rollers in flight taped in slow-motion.
This video has caught my interest as I am an aerodynamic aircraft design engineer and race car designer.
I won’t even try to explain why a roller rolls; maybe they just want to showoff like a peacock spreading its tail. Why they roll is not the subject here, this is about the aerodynamic control of the Roller.
The point here is to try and improve performance and control, by breeding with aerodynamics in mind.
I am most likely stepping in front of a MAC-TRUCK on this, but here are my views on the aerodynamics of the roller, and hope to get good experienced feed back, from good breeders.
After watching this video clip many times I do know a little more on how the aerodynamics are set-up by the bird to create the roll.
The bird slows in flight to almost a stall the wings rotate up and turn the lower side of the wing almost 90 degrees to direction of travel, at the same instant the tail fans out about 70% of its maximum spread, and up 130 degrees in the direction of the back of the neck, this putting the bird into a complete stall, the roller now throws its head back starting the roll, the wings beat in a reverse direction kind of like a man doing a back stoke at this point the bird enters the full roll position the wings beating rapidly as wing beat increases the roll velocity increases the roll becomes a spinning blur.
To end the rolling the bird fans its tail very wide maybe 90 to 100 %, it drops back into normal flight position or a little lower maybe 5 to 10 degrees negative this stopping the spin, at the same time the wings rotate back to normal position and stop the fall this is a typical good spinner as it appears to me.
An example of a poor roll is shown in the very start of the clip first bird shown sets up for the roll and is at the stall point but chickens out and pushes it’s head forward and blips its wings to try and break the stall to continue to flying forward and not go into the roll, but its just to late and the bird stalls anyway and does a sloppy half try tumble. (Don’t jump off track here we all know this could be a young bird just starting but lets say for the sake of learning that this is the way this bird performs and is a typical junk bird from a feather merchant.)
With this observation comes some rime and reason to a few points I have herd about good rollers body type and strength free tail movement smaller birds with shorter wing resulting in the bird be able to have a very high wing beat vs. a slower long wing a quick wing beat strong muscles in the tail and neck to stay balled up when the G forces are trying to pull the bird into the open position and strong back muscles to spread the tail to stop the roll, and rotate the wing to stop the fall.
A question if a bird uses up all its strength to stay balled up in the spin will it have the strength or tail spread to stop the roll, maybe this is why the old timers wanted a hard strong body and stiff dark feathers.
OH WELL TO SEND OR NOT TO SEND
(I THINK I SEE A TRUCK COMING )
PACOS BILL
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nicksiders
2030 posts
Aug 07, 2007
11:05 PM
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Fantastic post!!!Now I got to put together a thoughtout respose, but I think you are on to something. Put all the roll technics that you described the bird performs in the roll with the recommended body type to do this and you have it all.....I shall return as soon as I review the video a few more times and thumb through some reference material.
I don't think you will get very many trucks bearing down you for that post....fantastic
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Nick
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
1493 posts
Aug 07, 2007
11:56 PM
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Here's some much better than that video you mentioned Bill
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nicksiders
2032 posts
Aug 08, 2007
2:25 AM
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If you look real close you see the legs change during the roll. Extending to brake; retracting to lesson the brake....maybe, huh?
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Nick
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pacos bill
10 posts
Aug 08, 2007
7:12 AM
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Wow this is a great video Brian! You do see the legs protruding out I think it may be a counter balance action or even a kicking to add to the roll fallow thru?
This brings into play the drag that a muffed bird may encounter, or do the muffs in some way help. I have seen some real good muffed birds out of the smith line that roll well the muffs would make be great air brake, or even may help propel the Roll.
If you see the poor roll of the first bird in the video I saw from discovery the birds legs stay up, their may be good point to the leg extension.
Does any one else have some great video shots this may take some research.
Nick your insight on the keel is a good point I do like the apple shape keel your right a spinning mass must be balance to spin correctly. Pensom did say a bird should have a good apple shape keel and good back muscles.
I knew you guys would come thru on this. By the way Brian I Live in Canyon Lake Ca. near Temecula my old friends Jim and Terry Bishop think I should try to meet up with you, I think they are right also Nick are you in So Ca.
Pacos Bill
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birdman
354 posts
Aug 08, 2007
7:17 AM
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I think the bird's motor has a greater effect on how we view a roll than its physical make up does.
A faster spinning bird will appear more balanced than a slower spinning bird.
Also, Wouldn't the birds motor also control the start/stop of the roll more that a strong back?
Nick, I think the feet are in the same position but look like they are sticking out because the birds tail is bent back toward its head.
Russ
Last Edited by on Aug 08, 2007 7:24 AM
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
1494 posts
Aug 08, 2007
7:43 AM
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Then you aren't far down the road Bill. You should consider visiting Luis Lorenzo, he's practically your neighbor. Jim and Terry are great pigeon people, incredible embassadors in this hobby. Terry was who I looked up to the most out of everyone when I got back into the show birds. I learned a lot from him.
I am in agreement with Russ. I believe it is in the motor, not the physical make up of the bird. Granted, the more "ideal" the build, the more condusive the bird is to roll even better when coupled with the right motor. I am one who doesn't dabble with the never-ending search for the perfect feeling body. I really don't care. I learned to let the birds show me what is more correct. Like many, I've been amazed at the differences in type in really fast, knotted up rollers. I've seen some that were so fantastic looking and feeling birds, but they did nothing more than average speed X rolling. IMO, The speed and articulations during the spin are in the motor in the head. If the bird is built right for their particular motor make up, you get a great pigeon and a great show in the air.
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Gregg
149 posts
Aug 08, 2007
7:59 AM
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Brian,
Thanks for the video. It is continuous and makes it easy to study. My eye also catches the black mottle as the faster bird.
If you right click on your mouse and keep doing same while moving the mouse so that you are not clicking on the menu that it brings up, you can get a third of a second stop action on those birds. When you do you will see that the legs appear straight back all of the time in alignment with the birds body.
Bill,
Really enjoyed the aerodynamic perspective. You put into words what many of us have known for quite some time. That the right body with the right mechanism, be it mental or whatever, makes for a great bird. Brian hit on one point that I totally concur on, that I also have seen more types, sizes, lengths and looks ball up and roll like there is no tomorrow. That doesn't mean that there is not a happy medium, there is, that is what we are constantly endeavoring to create, the complete bird. There aren't too many of them around.
Gregg.
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nicksiders
2034 posts
Aug 08, 2007
7:00 PM
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Pecos,
I once lived in SoCa; moved to NoCa until retirement. I now live in Eastern Arkansas cause it is cheap and my daughter works in Memphis, TN.
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Nick
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nicksiders
2035 posts
Aug 08, 2007
7:02 PM
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I think the bird on the right in video has more velocity.
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Nick
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Velo99
1250 posts
Aug 08, 2007
8:00 PM
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Hi Guys
I equate the performance to an acrobat flipping across the mat during a floor exercise. The toes are extended to get a maximum arch from the back and the power thru the legs. The arms(wings) are reaching to the sky and grasping for more rotation. Notice in the olympics they get points deducted for the finer points like non pointy toes and flailing limbs.
The bird should be trying its best to use centrifugal force to its advantage.
Mother Nature did a great job enabling the little dino`s we call birds to fly.However we have them doing something only the pigeons from the X Games grandstands will consider. Back to the point. If an object is spun in free flight the slightly eccentric orbit will produce more centifugal force twice a rotation than a perfectly circular object. This is when the bird is stroking his wings to the back reaching upwards with the maximum arch of the back. The slight eccentrictiy of the orbit give him the added power to GAIN SPEED as he rolls. If the bird is working with the force as he rolls over the sweet spot he can gain speed. Any deviation from the central axis will result in a degradation of the orbit and its speed will considerably decline as the orbit slows accentuating the eccentricity as the roll turns into a twizzle and another cull is born.
Physics is easier for me to understand than aerodynamics.
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V99
Flippin`The Bird!
http://www.bluedotloft.50megs.com
Last Edited by on Aug 08, 2007 8:03 PM
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Velo99
1251 posts
Aug 08, 2007
8:10 PM
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Nick,
Both birds are A types. The bird on the right looks like it is roillng a lot cleaner.The other looks like he is fighting the roll a bit. Possibly because it has too broad a wing. The right bird has a more narrow wing and seems to have better form in the roll. Therefore probably more has velocity as well.
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V99
Flippin`The Bird!
http://www.bluedotloft.50megs.com
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pacos bill
11 posts
Aug 08, 2007
11:08 PM
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Brian and Nick and flipping the bird. Thanks for the input.
Hey guys this leg dragging shown in the clip by Brian has kept me awake all night.
I don’t mean to pick the fly specs out of the pepper, but if you look close at the original video I referenced to by discovery, you will notice that you only see two birds with legs out stretched in the roll, one puts them out at moment it try’s to stop the roll, the other is the last bird to roll on this clip and drops the legs right at the start.
It makes good sense that a bird would drop the legs down to break or stop the roll, but why would a bird drop the legs at the start of the roll.
Is it as Nick said about keel depth, that maybe the bird drops down the legs to offset the weight balance loss of a shallow keel?
Tail control we have a young Tort that was just starting into the roll maybe a week doing 3 ft rolls not real fast but smooth, this bird lost his tail in a mid air dog fight encounter a few day earlier, I watched this Tort for about 10 minutes, and it just could not roll try as it might, and all most did a tail slide into the ground, or should I say tailless slide I have never flown birds with no tail, or in heavy molt, this guy just got by when the kit box door was opened. To make my point it would appear that the tail is used a good bit for control.
Have you guys flown birds with missing tails and had normal performance.
I am not trying to take any position on this, just trying to build aerodynamic knowledge of these magnificent birds we all enjoy.
Pacos Bill
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W@yne
603 posts
Aug 08, 2007
11:19 PM
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Bill
Flying a bird with no tail is a bird on a suicide mission the birds tail is the brake n rudder.
Without the tail the bird will struggle to come out of a fast roll safely.
A bird with no tail will be an very unstable bird.
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Regards
W@yne UK
Patience Perseverance Perfection
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
1500 posts
Aug 08, 2007
11:24 PM
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I've had a few lose their tails and it didn't seem to effect their roll much, other than being different looking, it kinda messed up the roundness of the roll I suppose. They just sort of slid out of the roll if I remember correctly.
As far as the leg stuff, it is my opinion the legs are just along for the ride, kinda like when you are on one of those sit down spinning rides where it feels like your shoes are going to fly off.
Bill you can see what I'm talking about in some photos here.
http://www.pbase.com/bmc1/kitting
Last Edited by on Aug 08, 2007 11:27 PM
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motherlodelofts
1913 posts
Aug 09, 2007
5:51 AM
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Wayne , the tail plays no part in stopping.
Scott
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bman
345 posts
Aug 09, 2007
9:10 AM
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I just watched a kit last weekend that had a young bird with no tail feathers at all,looked like a bat,LOL.
It was rolling without any trouble although the owner said the quality wasn't there.
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Ron
Borderline lofts
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1548 posts
Aug 09, 2007
10:07 AM
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Scott Said:
"Wayne , the tail plays no part in stopping. Scott"
Hey Scott, that is so counter intuitive. I am sure there is more you are not saying.
WINNERS WITH SPINNERS II Page 187 in regards TAILS:
"...They should be short, relatively narrow and dip down when the bird is held in the hand so that the tail can go up or down freely. The downward dip is an indicator of back and tail strength that provide "stopping power" to help the bird cleanly snap out of the roll."
Myself, I see some birds fan the tail wide open and others not so wide at the end of the roll. Perhaps they are waving to me! LOL
Perhaps they are just using the tail to gain control of motion and flight direction as coming out of the roll?? Perhaps this gives the appearance of assisting in braking from the roll?
I have a cock I fly from a pair of Richard Apodaca birds and this bird will roll well over 50 feet. I have seen him lock up from time to time coming out of the roll with tail standing straight up offering no air resistance and he just falls (tail ride) so that sometimes he looks like he is going to crash.
He only pulls out of it when he appears to shift his weight forward and fans his tail wide open.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Check Out Our Pigeon Supply Store
Last Edited by on Aug 09, 2007 10:15 AM
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W@yne
604 posts
Aug 09, 2007
10:37 AM
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Scotty
I myself have never flown a bird with no tail because Ive always been told that a bird with no tail cant pull out of the roll at that crucial split second that it needs to do in a place as built up as mine.
I know it will still pull out of the roll just like a bird can with a broken tail but can it pull out and stop like at any given moment.??
Like Tony said the tail fanning out at the end of a roll must be a indicator of control of the bird.
So is the tail used to slow down or brake the roll?
Scotty i beg to differ.
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Regards
W@yne UK
Patience Perseverance Perfection
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Last Edited by on Aug 09, 2007 10:38 AM
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J_Star
1118 posts
Aug 09, 2007
11:23 AM
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I flew my kit yesterday while they are molting. One cock that is always in control was missing most of his tail feathers due to the molt. He couldn't get out of the roll in time because he couldn't stop his spin as usual and landed on the ground. For one because his tail couldn't provide him the strength to snap sharply out of the spin and secondly it could not provide him with the strength to push forward and continue flying.
Jay
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motherlodelofts
1914 posts
Aug 09, 2007
12:35 PM
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Wayne , it's a wives tail and nothing more , I know from personal experiance on more that on occassion , other than them looking like bats it has no effect what so ever on them coming out of the roll, the tail is used more like a rudder.
Scott
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motherlodelofts
1915 posts
Aug 09, 2007
12:37 PM
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Jay, the problem was instability due to the moult which is common, not because of the tail.
Scott
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motherlodelofts
1916 posts
Aug 09, 2007
12:41 PM
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Ok Tony , it is written so it must be true, the back does play, the back must unlock and have the strength to do so, it has nothing to do with the tail , no guessing or hearsay on my end, I know for a fact.
Scott
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Gregg
150 posts
Aug 09, 2007
1:15 PM
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Tony, et al,
Scott has it right. I believed as you for years even contrary to the evidence. Subject came up at a friend's house and he said "hockey puck" and "bull tweet." Then he threw a tailless bird into the air to join his kit. No problem picking that bird out and it had no problem pulling out.
During the moult the next couple of years, I played with the same thing. Proved myself totally wrong and Scott is right. Try it this fall on proven, stable twenty to thirty foot spinners.
Gregg.
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nicksiders
2038 posts
Aug 09, 2007
1:24 PM
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There has to be a reason for the tail. All flying birds have them...........so what do you think the purpose is?
Dogs have a tail and are often bobbed; conservatives have a tail and often placed between thier legs; why don't we just pluck all of thier tails and be done with it(the bird's tails, that is)
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Nick
Last Edited by on Aug 09, 2007 1:25 PM
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birdman
355 posts
Aug 09, 2007
1:40 PM
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Nick,
I'm not clear on what you mean when you say "..conservatives have a tail and often placed between their legs..".
Please explain without editing your comment or hiding behind an "LOL".
Thanks
Last Edited by on Aug 09, 2007 1:41 PM
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nicksiders
2039 posts
Aug 09, 2007
1:59 PM
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Come on, Russ. You gotta know without me justifying or qualifying it with a "LOL" in what light I said it. Some of my best friends are conservatives, even a couple of brothers are. I think all of us know a conservative or two.
LOL
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Nick
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Velo99
1253 posts
Aug 09, 2007
2:55 PM
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Nick
Better a tuck tailed conservative than a liberal with his hand in my pocket. With them you never know what they will grab next.
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V99
Flippin`The Bird!
http://www.bluedotloft.50megs.com
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Gregg
151 posts
Aug 09, 2007
3:39 PM
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Kenny,
That's what they make them big ole hickory sticks for!!!
I'm somewhere in the middle, I'm becoming somewhat of a tightwad with MY WALLET. I just think of all the new bridges pigeons would have to set under if our Bush Baby wasn't spending all of my money in other country's. Always think there's a cheaper way to accomplish the war...execution...ummmm...saving the oil companies.....from themselves...I know, if you don't see this in the first three minutes, it will be (moderated).
Gregg.
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Gregg
152 posts
Aug 09, 2007
3:44 PM
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By the way, the tail is the rudder. Not saying it doesn't help somewhat in the exit from the roll, just saying that it is not necessary. Without the tail the cheetah would never be able to corner with it's prey, ditto BOP's. Same situation for the pigeon. Watch a cat or a dog with a long tail and how they use them when they are moving at a quick clip. Watch your next BOP attack and you will understand.
Gregg.
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1549 posts
Aug 09, 2007
4:20 PM
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Hey Scott, I know that just because something is written does not make it true, but it doesn’t make it untrue either. A Spoken word can be denied; the author of the written word is accountable for all time to be praised or mocked and ridiculed forever.
The tail is a rudder, this we all know, (“Perhaps they are just using the tail to gain control of motion and flight direction as coming out of the roll??”) we also know that any wind resistance generated by the tail opening up when coming down from the hinged position is going to create wind resistance, thereby increasing drag (braking effect).
Why is the back unlocking? To bring down the tail. Why should the tail come down? To provide flight direction and wind resistance (braking effect).
The roll stops when the roller stops stroking the wings up and down. The tail is helpful.
Tail is NOT needed to STOP the roll. Just looks better with one.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Check Out Our Pigeon Supply Store
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Missouri-Flyer
791 posts
Aug 09, 2007
4:20 PM
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January 12th of this year I had a birds tail totally taken out by a BOP..I continued flying this bird until the tail grew back full...This is a very fast,controlled spinner and I seen absolutly no difference in this birds performance with or with his tail.
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Jerry
Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
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motherlodelofts
1917 posts
Aug 09, 2007
6:50 PM
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Tony, the tail doesn't create breaking in any way shape or form,nor does it play into the bird being able to snap out of the roll properly, I know this for a fact.
The back plays in due to it must unlock to come out of the roll and to continue flight, and that is why a strong back is important and why weak backed birds have a tendancy to bump.
Scott
PS as for that bird that you mentioned above, I don't tolorate such birds, for me coming out of the roll properly is of utmost importance.
Last Edited by on Aug 09, 2007 7:20 PM
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1550 posts
Aug 09, 2007
8:11 PM
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Scott, Okay.
Yeah, I keep that Apadoca bird cause its very deep and he only locks up once in a while. Its a blast to watch but he will never breed.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Check Out Our Pigeon Supply Store
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kcfirl
172 posts
Aug 09, 2007
9:00 PM
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I agree with Scott that the tail is not the primary stopping force - the wings are - in fact they are the primary force in every movement the bird makes.
I do think the tail can provide lift and stability and allow for a slower wingbeat. It is, after all, an additional surface by which to generate lift. I also prefer the looks of a bird with a tail. :-)
Firl
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motherlodelofts
1918 posts
Aug 09, 2007
9:48 PM
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Ken I had a bird a few years ago that was a real hotshot,faster than snot and frequent but with perfect control.
Her fault was very poor feather quality that couldnt hold up with her performance, all of her tail feathers were snapped off along with all of her secondaries and a flight or two.
Every fly I just prayed that she had enough primary flights to stay airborn, she was flawless from start to finish where the roll was concerned most of the time 3when in condiion .
I don't think that there is any thing breaking anything, I think that there is only a change in thier motor skills that involve the wings,back, and the mental state contols those moter skills , this is a very complex and facinating breed to say the least.
Scott
Last Edited by on Aug 09, 2007 10:14 PM
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J_Star
1119 posts
Aug 10, 2007
5:33 AM
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The roller fans its tail when getting out of the roll because it stretches its legs. Every time a bird when landing stretches it legs to land the tail will always fan out. The tail is a rudder and uses it for direction and to go up and down by tilting the tail slightly up or down. The tail is used for the bird maneuverability and at balancing the bird for its aerodynamic flight. By the way, can we take a tail out of an airplane or the back rudder out of a helicopter? Then what is the purpose for that tail?
Jay
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Gregg
165 posts
Aug 19, 2007
2:00 PM
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I managed to do a stop motion on the clip that Brian posted above. When I was able to completely stop the motion, and I did many times at many places on the clip, the legs are definitely extended straight back from the body. It may not appear so as you watch it 'at speed' but you must realize the tail is arched upwards and is not an indication of straight from the body. The black(after watching it a few more times I think it is a dun) to the right is still the faster bird but the red check has come up in my worth with the stop action. The red is viewed from the side and looks a bit skewered to one side and off with the wing beat. That is just a perception from the angle that he is captured on the film, his wing beat is right in sync and is an H pattern roller while the black (dun?) is a () roller. I would like to have seen both birds in person rather than rely on tape, but you have to work with what is at hand.
Gregg.
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1580 posts
Aug 19, 2007
7:28 PM
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The tail is a part of the stopping "process". I don't think that only it STOPS the roll. The fact that you can pull the tail out and the roller still rolls and stops does not mean the tail has nothing to do with the stopping process.
The bird without a tail, in my view, simply adjusts his body, wings and motion to compensate for the missing tail in order to help it stop the roll.
If you pulled 2 main primary feathers from each wing and it still rolled, does that mean it does not need the 4 primary feathers? Of course not, the bird will simply adjust or compensate for the missing feathers.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Check Out Our Pigeon Supply Store
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Gregg
169 posts
Aug 20, 2007
9:06 AM
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Tony,
Gotta always try to have the last word. There are times your worse than a woman. Big Smile.
Gregg.
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1586 posts
Aug 20, 2007
9:08 AM
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LOL!
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Check Out Our Pigeon Supply Store
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W@yne
614 posts
Aug 20, 2007
2:52 PM
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If the tail helps by stopping the bird say by 1 ft in a 30 ft roll that itself can make a difference of life and death of a pigeon in a built up area like i have. But i ain't no expert ill leave it to you guys its only what Ive been led to believe.
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Regards
W@yne UK
Patience Perseverance Perfection
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Thrace Roller
1 post
Aug 28, 2007
12:09 PM
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hello
I'm Koral ALTER living in TURKEY and deal with turkish rollers (thrace rollers,oriental rollers,jackal,alabadem)I hope to give information reciprocal and my english bad so
I hope agreement
best regards
Koral ALTER
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nicksiders
2108 posts
Aug 28, 2007
1:08 PM
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Koral,
Welcome to the site. Give us all the information you can and want. We will be glade to share.
Our English ain't good either...especially from the English guys so you will feel right at home here.
Welcome, my friend.
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Nick
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W@yne
630 posts
Aug 28, 2007
1:49 PM
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Nicksiders
We speak the queens English its you guys that have the problem lol
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Regards
W@yne UK
Patience Perseverance Perfection
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