Richard
52 posts
Aug 13, 2007
6:02 PM
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It sure would be nice if all pigeon flyers would not fly their pigeons for a year or so and then see what would happen when the hawks eat all the song birds. I bet the doo gooooders would cry. With the number of hawks there are now and what they will produce, it would be enough to make a sizable dent into the song bird population. as it already has. I know at my place there is hardly any song birds here compaired to five or more years ago. I bet the bird lovers would think twice about hugging a hawk while it is eating one of the song birds, Alive. Yes I said alive. they don't kill it with a club or wring its neck , they just start tearing off meat and if the bird is luckly it will die fast/
Food for though
Richard
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tapp
280 posts
Aug 13, 2007
8:04 PM
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Richard, I think most of us that have pigeons are wild bird lovers also. I know I am! Kim Tappenden
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Tapp
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splitter
15 posts
Aug 13, 2007
8:07 PM
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Tapp, you still going to convention
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nicksiders
2059 posts
Aug 13, 2007
8:41 PM
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Richard and List,
What I find ironic is those breeders who poke fun at the "tree huggers" and "Bambi humpers" and that is really who most of us are. We are the ones putting out wild bird feeders; planting habitats for small creatures and birds. We are the tree huggers and the Bambi Humpers.
We understand there has to be a balance to sustain all of what is nature around us. I would not have the heart not to fly for that long.....I would go insane(LOL)
I have made up my mind to not affixate on the BOP problem anymore. It does nothing for me to get upset over it and all it does is bring the breeders of Rollers under the wrong people's scrutney for the wrong reasons. Too many people still think removing BOP is part of the hobby both inside and outside of the hobby and it is not. Something we need to dispell; the sooner the better.
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Nick
Last Edited by on Aug 13, 2007 8:43 PM
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Electric-man
497 posts
Aug 13, 2007
10:15 PM
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I agree, Nick! With all except me and bambi, it was bambi's girlfriend, and that was just a rumor, I swear!
Val
"Wind Talker"
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classicpony
320 posts
Aug 13, 2007
10:23 PM
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Run Bambi run Electric Man is after you again! :)
Jim
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Electric-man
499 posts
Aug 13, 2007
10:44 PM
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LMAO, I swear, I wasn't even there that day!
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Val
"Wind Talker"
Last Edited by on Aug 14, 2007 8:02 AM
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Richard
53 posts
Aug 14, 2007
3:55 AM
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what I was getting at was that if enough people get together the law could be changed and just maybe we could protect our own. I am not advocating mass slaughter of the problem, just protect our hobby. Set back and relax all, enjoy the time we still have to fly them, because some day we will not be able to fly our birds. It use to be that we could fly all the time, then down to 7 or 8 months, then down to 4 or 5 months, now we are being hit almost all year long.
Don't want to be negative but it is a fact. I have flown pigeons since I was 7 years old. Things don't look good.
Richard
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1563 posts
Aug 14, 2007
5:19 AM
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Hey Richard, when I lived in California, I was once able to fly year-round, when I left it was down to about 6 months. In my opinion, better management and awareness will do more in the short-term to save your rollers and enjoyment of the hobby.
Since nature seems to always take care of the overpopulation of any species, my guess is that the bop will reach the tipping point and we will eventually see a decrease in their numbers.
But first they have to increase. Keeping your rollers inside during the heaviest months will do more to allow nature to run its course, but if you setup a year-round McFalcon's fast food restaurant, you will thwart natures inevitable correction.
Probably not what you wanted to hear, but it will eventually play out.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Check Out Our Pigeon Supply Store
Last Edited by on Aug 14, 2007 5:20 AM
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Gregg
157 posts
Aug 14, 2007
6:40 AM
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Tony,
Another item affecting the predator population is the warmer winter months. Most of the migration in the accipiter family are young birds as the adults tend to try to stay put and protect their territorial rights. They will stay all winter unless their food source dries up. That brings us to the warmer winters we have been experiencing with less snow fall. It keeps conditions favorable for the adult birds that stay on their territory.
I am curious if the wet year we are having also helped keep down this years repopulation. I haven't seen a young bird this summer and that is rare for my location.
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C.J.
1572 posts
Aug 14, 2007
6:49 AM
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I personally don't think every fancier locking their birds down would have any impact on the BOP. Its not likewhen ever we let our birds out there are 50 BOP's waiting to pounce. They are opportunistic and will attack the easiest seeming meal. Unfortuneatly when our birds begin to roll they look like an easy meal. If we learn when the BOP are most likely to be around in our area we are likely to have less attacks. Unfortuneately some of are too stubborn to not fly our birds and that is when you will have major losses.
C.J.
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1564 posts
Aug 14, 2007
7:21 AM
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C.J. said:
"Unfortunately some of (us) are too stubborn to not fly our birds and that is when you will have major losses."
You are right, some people open a McFalcon franchise and complain they have too many customers. lol
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Check Out Our Pigeon Supply Store
Last Edited by on Aug 14, 2007 7:21 AM
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C.J.
1573 posts
Aug 14, 2007
8:49 AM
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Exactly Tony. They refuse to learn from their losses but whine and complain because everyday when they open their loft at the same time everyday there is the BOP waiting for its happy meal.
C.J.
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kcfirl
173 posts
Aug 14, 2007
11:17 AM
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Tony,
in my view, the raptor population will never go back down naturally. I'm positive there were more raptors prior to Europeans setting foot in this country than their are now.
My opinion is that we have not reached equilibrium yet and we will continue to see increasing predation.
Raptors take a long time to build up populations since they only have 4-5 young each year with less than half reaching maturity.
Since DDT was outlawed in 1972, populations have increased dramtically but it is doubtful that they are at peak sustainable numbers.
Approximate Numbers of Breeding Pairs of Raptors
In the United States throughout the Century
BALD PEREGRINE
EAGLE FALCON OSPREY
1940 3,500 1,500 15,000
1950 1,000 750 7,000
1960 450 300 4,000
1970 400 225 2,000
1975 1,100 40 6,000
1985 2,000 450 7,500
1995 5,500 990 14,200
I see that the rise in popularity of Birmingham Rollers coincides with the low point of raptor populations. Thus, when I started with rollers back in 1972 or so, there were very few issues. Now we can see that we are back to appx. 1940 numbers but I suspect we are nowhere near the numbers it will be soon.
My view is we should be working within the law to mitigate the situation before it is lost and we give up.
Regards,
Ken Firl
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Richard
54 posts
Aug 14, 2007
5:07 PM
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Tony and all
You said flying was down to six months before you moved.What year was that? Better management and awareness will do more in the short term to save your rollers. Just how do you propose better management and awareness? I quit long time ago flying when they come in. I do not raise lot of rollers and can not afford to loose them just to see a kit fly or win a contest. I know some raise couple hundred and fly a kit to feed the hawks and hope they will let the next kit off scot free. All that does is draw in more. Not very good thinking. I have never set up a McFalcon fast food restaurant and never will. I like my rollers too much to just feed them to the hawks.
Yes nature does take care of over population. When is that going to be? The problem has been bad now for over 16 years. And getting worse each year. I use to be able to fly all year, then down to 6 or 7 months out of the year. Now less. I am hit almost every month of the year. Which I don't for see in the near future of getting better.
No the numbers were not as high back in the "40 as they are now. NO where near what we have now. I flew pigeons in the '40 and never remember seeing a hawk chase my birds. The first time I say a bird being chased and it was caught was in 1960. and nothing from them till the late '80 or early '90 Figures are fine but how did the come about them? Your figures only got to 1995, They were just starting to make a serious come back then. I would like to see some figures for 2000 or later. What a change I am sure we would see.
Yes Ken you are right when you said "we should be working within the law to mitigate the situation before it is lost and we give up." We can't do that alone but with all the bird lovers together we can succeed.
Changing the law to remove the Coopers from the endangerd list Is what I am suggesting. Never once have I advocated breaking the law. Laws are made to protect for what ever reason and with good common sense they can be changed when needed.
thanks everyone for your input. What will work and what will not is the question.
Richard
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
1508 posts
Aug 14, 2007
5:22 PM
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Richard, the cooper isn't on the endangered list.
In the time I flew birds, many times just free lofting them in my teenager years up to 1985, I never had a BOP hit any of my birds, none ever went missing and I never saw a cooper or even a falcon, anywhere where I grew up. Fast forward 20 years, guys who now live and fly in that area get decimated, lose large numbers of birds and have to shut down for months and months on end. You don't need a calculator to do that kind of math.
Last Edited by on Aug 14, 2007 5:23 PM
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Richard
55 posts
Aug 14, 2007
5:54 PM
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sorry wrong word. How about protected list.
Richard
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1565 posts
Aug 14, 2007
9:32 PM
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Hey Richard, I moved from Southern California in summer of 2005. Flew there since 1993. That's about 12 years. Lost less than 20 birds the whole time.
Been in Missouri 2 years and no losses, but a couple attacks.
Been through this on other threads...What do you propose as a solution then? Don't wait to hold your breath for pigeon people to organize and do something. Reality is, you are on your own...
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Check Out Our Pigeon Supply Store
Last Edited by on Aug 14, 2007 9:34 PM
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Electric-man
500 posts
Aug 14, 2007
10:18 PM
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Brian, you posted a picture once of a horse being whipped to death! LMAO- Sure wished I had that one sometimes! Do you still have it handy?
Val
"Wind Talker"
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Richard
56 posts
Aug 15, 2007
5:05 AM
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Tony
Can't say I tried. I just got reality.
Val
Hope you don't loose your A. Save the horse got the message.
Richard
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J_Star
1129 posts
Aug 15, 2007
6:42 AM
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Richard,
Don't let others discourage you.
Jay
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nicksiders
2062 posts
Aug 15, 2007
7:02 AM
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Richard,
Getting all the roller breeders together and on the same page or to follow a program is like hurding cats or democrats. Even when they understand the purpose and agree with it; getting them together and moving them in the same direction is vertually impossible. They seem to carry individualism and independance to a fault. Tony is right; you ARE on your own, but you never know. The problem may esculate to the point that a cooperative effort will be born out of it.....don't be too discouraged over this. I think you got a lot of people thinking.
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Nick
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Richard
57 posts
Aug 15, 2007
7:32 AM
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YOu are right Nick. I guess most AMERICANS have tendency to set on our hind ends until some one shove a stick into it.
thanks I am learning, well almost.
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1566 posts
Aug 15, 2007
7:52 AM
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Richard Said:
" You are right Nick. I guess most AMERICANS have tendency to set on our hind ends until some one shove a stick into it.
thanks I am learning, well almost."
IMO most Americans want to be "left the heck alone", until someone stupid enough tries to put a stick in.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Check Out Our Pigeon Supply Store
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Richard
58 posts
Aug 15, 2007
8:40 AM
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I believe the stick is already poking, just not enough have felt it yet, but we will. Your are lucky you are setting in the promise land for pigeon flying. that too will change. I will be watching you competition records.
Oh my gosh will I get kicked off?
Richard
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J_Star
1130 posts
Aug 15, 2007
9:05 AM
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Richard and others,
What do you expect to happen if we made a drive to save our birds by law? Do you folks honestly believe that the hawks will be taken off the protected species list? Or do you expect that the Fish and Wild Life will give people permission to relocate problem hawks? Or do you expect them to let us get rid of them as we wish? None of the above is going to happen, I assure you that. So, myself and expect the others to deal with it provided the best way legally possible, out smart them or what have you...
Even if the Fish and Wild Life gives permission to relocate problem hawks...you just moving your problem to other fanciers area and making it theirs...and they do the same back to you or others. So, in this regard, the ball just keep on roling from point A to point B and back to point A again. The hawks will out smart us in the future because they get accustomed to the way they get trapped and don't fall into that trap again. No use...
The Fish and Wild Life has to come up with a way to breed more Song birds...I guess.
Jay
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1567 posts
Aug 15, 2007
9:57 AM
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Well Richard, since you are watching, I guess I better "get on the stick". LOL
I fly roller pigeons for the love of the bird which started when I was a kid (1970's) and now its to breed the ideal roller as I understand it.
I can see you are concerned about the bop and its impact on the hobby since you have been into pigeons since 1945. We are all concerned. If you have been following the threads here you realize there are ways both legal and illegal to deal with bop.
The first and best way to deal with bop is to be a responsible citizen and follow the laws and do nothing that would cast your activities in a negative light.
Second, is to find creative but legal methods to work around the bop in your area. Ultimately and unfortunately, a person may have to get out of flying performance pigeons as the losses don't justify the effort.
======
As pigeon fanciers, it may be time to begin thinking outside the box.
I have shared by email, some correspondence with a "birder" with some insight into the real possible solution. I hope he doesn't mind but I would like to share a few lines from a recent email:
"...generalists like the American Robin are among the most preyed upon songbirds by Cooper's Hawks - robin numbers are increasing..."
"...Specialists, like grassland birds, which are also preyed upon by raptors, are declining. In both cases, both kinds of birds have been natural raptor prey items for tens of thousands of years."
The balance that has been tipped is the loss of habitat for specialists. Managing raptor populations isn't the solution, but restoring habitat is."
==========
So taking this as a cue: here is my "theory" why So.Cal. has a severe bop problem...
In Southern California back in the 1980's, 1990's and 2000's (when bop first became a really big issue), whole areas of open land once used for dairy's and farming (Ontario, Chino, Orange County, etc) were and are being developed with housing tracts, shopping malls, industry parks, etc.
This urban sprawl encroached and abuts on lands historically supporting bop and other wild animals. In order to remain in instinctual nesting territories, some percentage of bop were compelled to find other non-traditional food sources (Domesticated Pigeons Flying In Circles) and soon reaped the benefit of such ready food stocks that they have mushroomed in numbers.
Looking for reasons why, pigeon fanciers perhaps falsely concluded that the MBTA was responsible. But wait, the MBTA has been in existence since the early 1900's, why did it take all that time for bop to become an issue Southern California?
So, perhaps the long-term solution for the pigeon fancier's bop concerns is for us all to join forces with already strong, established and politically savvy groups to responsibly restore and maintain natural habitat.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Check Out Our Pigeon Supply Store
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Electric-man
502 posts
Aug 15, 2007
3:55 PM
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Richard, I want to apologise for my remark! I understand what you are saying and I probably lean towards your style of thinking!I've never had money so I have learned to fight if I want something, but sometimes I get beat down by reality! I personally don't see a change coming at this point! I guess I'm saying " I don't put much faith in the system anymore"! Until someones emerges in this situation we're in, that can lead us out of it, I'm gonna stand down and try to roll with the problem!
If it means anything, I didn't even look at the name in front of the initial post, my comment had to do with the repeated subject!
I got on to someone the other night for heckling comments made by good people trying to come up with solutions! Guess I should practice what I preach!
Once again, MY APOLOGIES!
Val
"Wind Talker"
Last Edited by on Aug 15, 2007 4:39 PM
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Missouri-Flyer
799 posts
Aug 15, 2007
4:41 PM
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Your a heck of a guy Val...That is MY opinion.
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Jerry
Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
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RUDY..ZUPPPPP
139 posts
Aug 15, 2007
5:29 PM
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I love to fly will be hard to stop...
Especially all the roller guyzzzzz
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kcfirl
179 posts
Aug 15, 2007
10:41 PM
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Tony,
it took that long because DDT was legal till 1972.
The idea behind the original MBTA itself isn't a problem in my mind. It is the application of it that is all out of whack with what the original legislators had in mind.
Read why it was passed here:
TITLE 16 > CHAPTER 7 > SUBCHAPTER I > § 701
The object and purpose of this Act is to aid in the restoration of such birds in those parts of the United States adapted thereto where the same have become scarce or extinct, and also to regulate the introduction of American or foreign birds or animals in localities where they have not heretofore existed.
FWS is not enforcing the intent of the law in the case of the Coopers hawk and Redtail. They are enforcing it to protect their own interests.
Ken Firl
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Richard
62 posts
Aug 16, 2007
6:29 AM
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Hi Val and all
You know I am not trying to start trouble on this list all I would like to see is all pigeon people band to gether and work out a LEGAL solution to the problem. This was done out west with the cattle men and wolves. As far as it goes with me how many years do I have left to fly birds. I have been flying them for over 65 years. I have been lucky, will you be able to say that with your back turned. Yes I understand there are lot of you out there that brag you have no problems. Well word of advice from an old codgerYOU WILL...... I do not have many, it is you guys who have many many year to fly them that tell me I am beating a dead horse. The horse is not dead but it could very well be in five to ten years. That you can take to the bank.
Val I accept you apology. It is little thingslike that which keep people from stepping forward to take the reins. For an example look at the guys who were arrested. we turned our back on them and threw them to the wolves. It all boils down to good common sense. I can kill a human that breaks in to my house. I am not allowed to protect my pets. Guys you better stand united,if you want your wonderful hobby to continue.
That said I think I better shut up
Richard
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bman
352 posts
Aug 16, 2007
9:16 AM
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I do think you will see the population level off but NOT in the near future.I sincerely doubt a few thousand pigeon people have the necessary clout to move the state and federal goverment to act in our behalf.I suppose their is the possibilty of financial compensation but you have to have proof which normally in our case doesn't exist.This isn't meant to disagree with any of the posts there are a lot of valid points being made.But even without MBTA all states that I know of would still list raptors as a non-game protected species.
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Ron
Borderline lofts
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wafer kits
44 posts
Aug 16, 2007
2:00 PM
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Richard;
I am enjoying your posts, No need to back out now. We all look for ways to outsmart the predators, which is why I fly mobile. Still lose a bird, occasionally, but nowhere near as many as I do in my own back yard. Al
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