MILO
415 posts
Aug 29, 2007
8:55 PM
|
This was from another thread. Good rule to follow Marcus. Let's take a look at that though. What does that really mean? In my loft many birds roll differently than others. There are so many variables that "best" could mean so many things. No two are identical. So, when we say best to best, what are we really refering to? How about balance in our pairings? Balance in body, balance in mental strength, feather quality, depth, style, speed, etc. Best to best is a very general guideline. What do you think guys?
c
Breed =====> "Best To Best"
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
|
DeepSpinLofts
130 posts
Aug 29, 2007
9:09 PM
|
What I like to do is breed donut hole to donut hole for a real sweet tight roll.
For instance:
You can mate a 20ft donut hole hen to a 15ft donut hole cock or a 40ft donut hole cock to a 15ft donut hole hen.
....or
You can take a volatile chance on hyper-volatility and breed a 40ft super fast donut hole to a 60+ footer. You pick the sexes for that particular mating.
Remember now.... only "Best to Best"!
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
|
MILO
416 posts
Aug 29, 2007
9:31 PM
|
I'm lost.
c
|
DeepSpinLofts
132 posts
Aug 30, 2007
12:02 AM
|
Keep in mind Milo that the presence of the hole (A.K.A Donut Hole) indicates true perfection on the spin..., and the tighter the spin the better it is for us to utilize the bird as stock.
NOTE: Without proper spinning, the roller is either rolling inappropriately (too slowly) or the roll is unsatisfactory for champion credentials and these rollers will never achieve championship status.
Allow me to reiterate:
====> "Breed Best to Best"
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
Last Edited by on Aug 30, 2007 12:10 AM
|
BigBob
6 posts
Aug 30, 2007
7:53 AM
|
How about breeding my best little black w/f hen to her daddy? I have never seen her daddy roll as he was one of my starter birds and I have never flown him. I'm not sure he can even roll but he and his mate have produced my best rollers to date. The little hen is a 2006 bird and is by far the best in my kit. She does everything the way I like it. Good kitting frequent fast and most of all she is reliable. By that I mean she performs the same day in and day out. I will fly her in the fall fly and then she goes to the breeding loft. I lost her full sister to a hawk last year and I don't want to take a chance on loosing her.
You could'nt say this is BEST TO BEST because I have no idea about the cock bird except by what he has produced. I do know that he came out of the first owners top pair and I was told that he performed well in his young bird year. But I never saw it.
I have only been breeding this family for 3 years and some have told me to put the hen back on her daddy and see if they will produce as good or better than her. But would this be BEST TO BEST?
----------
Big Bob
Fire Tower Roller Lofts
|
MILO
418 posts
Aug 30, 2007
8:10 AM
|
Yes Sir.
This is good thinking. She didn't get her rolling abilities anywhere else than from her parents. The fact that you never have flown the dad, doesn't really matter since he has produced your best roller. So in your case, ya, it's best to best. Best producer to best performer.
What I was shooting for in my starting this thread, and instead got a lot of fluffy donut talk, was pointing out how the term "Best to Best" is way to general. There are many other factors to consider. This was a serious question, and one that could have been of some use to the novice.
c
|
DeepSpinLofts
133 posts
Aug 30, 2007
10:40 AM
|
Bob, Milo and all....
Hey..., you can get roll from breeding a well bred roller than doesn't roll (but bio-gentically possesses the ro-gene) to one that rolls satisfactorily and still achieve positive results in training & flying out the young.
....however
If the goal is to breed champion spinners then I wholeheartedly recommend that you breed "Spin to Spin" & "Best to Best". Remember there are no shortcuts in this business and anything else in the breeding program will probably not yield the same performance qualities as simply breeding "Spin to Spin" & "Best to Best" together!
{P.S.} Bob... allow me to reignite the flame on your thesis.
====> "How about breeding my best little black w/f hen to her daddy"
Hmm.... sounds good to me.
In my humble opinion; "Best to Best" is basically what you put in the air. "Best to Best" can also imply which lines (or shall I say family of birds in your lofts) throws you out the best performers.
.....also
Some breeders feel that they don't have to fly a roller if it's from their very, very, very, very best stuff and is carrying the genes (the goods) & has that dynamic look as described by Pensom & McCully. But in order to evaluate the quality of the roll (or spin) you should fly birds out for at least 18 months or more.
Let's move on to Figure 1 below
Fig.1 BREEDING CHAMPION ROLLERS
Step 1: Start with the best cock bird you can get
Step 2: Pair it with a good hen (preferably same family)
Step 3: Produce many hens from this pair and fly them out
Step 4: Pick the best hen and pair it back to its father
Step 5: Repeat step 3-4-5
Capiche`
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
Last Edited by on Aug 31, 2007 5:59 AM
|
MILO
419 posts
Aug 30, 2007
10:42 AM
|
LOL
Now I get it.
c
|
MILO
420 posts
Aug 30, 2007
11:10 AM
|
Now that we are off donuts...
"you can get roll from breeding a well bred roller that doesn't roll (but bio-genetically possesses the ro-gene) to one that rolls satisfactorily and still achieve positive results in training & flying out the young."
This is an interesting statement Marcus. How would you know it is a carrier of this "bio-genetic" prepotency if it didn't roll or you never flew it? You have broken your own cardinal rule here. "Well bred roller" is a misleading term too. Sounds like a pedigree term. Yes, a trap term that old McCully birds fall into when people dont fly them. I should know, I have been through a truckload of them over the years. There is no "Best to Best" or "Spin to Spin" since it has not yet been identified. Bob's cockbird is a luck bird, a shot in the dark. He has gotten lucky, and struck some gold by mere chance. Now he can continue to mine it.
"If the goal is to breed champion spinners then I wholeheartedly recommend that you breed "Spin to Spin" & "Best to Best"."
Again...We must fly them out to see if they are even that.
"In my humble opinion; "Best to Best" isn't necessarily what you put in the air, but "Best to Best" implies which line (or shall I say family of birds in your lofts) throws you out the best performers. Sure... you don't have to fly a roller if it's from your very, very, very, very best stuff and is carrying the genes (the goods) & has that dynamic look as described by Pensom & McCully."
I couldn't disagree with you more on this Marcus. You can't pick a bird for stock without flying it if you expect to see greater percentages of spinners. You just can't. In fact, the "McCully" birds can trap you. If you start to pick them on the ground, you are doomed. They are too strong in character for that. Believe it when I say that you have to identify and CHOOSE weaker character birds in this line that you describe, unless you want to wind up with stiffs. Sure, they will be the fastest birds in the world, but that doesn't make a champion. Everything has to be considered, from things as subtle as wing butts, to the richness of the eye.
"Let's move on to Figure 1 below
Fig.1 BREEDING CHAMPION ROLLERS
Step 1: Start with the best cock bird you can get
Step 2: Pair it with a good hen (preferably same family)
Step 3: Produce many hens from this pair and fly them out
Step 4: Pick the best hen and pair it back to its father
Step 5: Repeat step 3-4-5 "
This makes sense. You can have hen lines too though. I'll buy this simple formula. If only it were this simple though. Remember, there are many other facets to breeding great rollers than a 5 step formula.
c
|
Ballrollers
865 posts
Aug 30, 2007
11:45 AM
|
Marcus,
So far, in my family of birds, that formula of hens back on their dads has produced a higher percentage of unstable birds...over frequent or rolldowns. It could be the originial hens, I guess. I have a few more this year, so if these do the same thing, I will go farther out on the pretzel next year.
YITS,
Cliff
|
DeepSpinLofts
134 posts
Aug 30, 2007
12:03 PM
|
Milo... it's okay to bend the rules just a little as long as you are going strictly by the book. To be honest with you.... I have no golden rule... except the Pensom rule.
I had my first roller when I was age 10 back in 1975 and fed, bred, trained and flew birds over the decades with a little success... not a lot. Growing up in the 70's & 80's I raised roller pigeons in everything from a tool shed to an old abandoned dog house. Now I have bigger ambitions & goals.
Me and the wife just purchased a 4 bed 3 bath foreclosure. There's a barn out back on a .67 acre lot. Can easily put 200 or 300 rollers in there comfortably. I look over my concrete wall out back and what do I see? Live Cattle graising. Ahh yes... I'm ready to do the darn thing (compete in the World Cup). No rear neighbors... so this will be my opportunity to shine with my family of performers!
I'm going all out with these additions:
1) A high-powered Electron Microscope for Biotechnological, Pharmaceutical & Agricultural research
2) Several refrigeration units strictly for feed & medicine.
3) NEMA 4X Infrared Turbine Flow Sensor --- Use these sensors for a wide range of industrial, commercial, and laboratory applications.
4) Master Meter High-Volume Turbine Meters -- Cold or hot water service meters; ideal for water management.
5) Cylindrical Bulk Storage Tanks -- These are containment vessels
========================================================
{P.S.} I'm running late to the gym (it's triceps, abs, obliques & calves today) so I gotta cut it short.
Let me just say Milo that you have the best hand my man..... and if I had your hand... I would just cut my hand off. And Cliff... try another breeding formula until you get it the way you want it.
Talk to you guys later....
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
|
Skylineloft
104 posts
Aug 30, 2007
12:13 PM
|
I have a scraper, shovel, shop vac and clean water containers.
I think I will go fly some pigeons.
Ray
|
MILO
421 posts
Aug 30, 2007
1:44 PM
|
LOL
Keep your hand Marcus. Congrats on the purchase. Sounds like you will have a factory in no time.
c
|
Steve S.
77 posts
Aug 30, 2007
2:26 PM
|
Milo,
Como esta Roman?
I been gone awhile.
I really got an education on this hole thing from this tread....LOL
I think I will go have some donuts now.....
later
Steve
|
MILO
423 posts
Aug 30, 2007
3:25 PM
|
LOL Steve. I thought you fell in a hole somewhere...LOL Welcome back.
c
|
Velo99
1284 posts
Aug 30, 2007
4:42 PM
|
I am in a similar predicament to Bob. I have been breeding several pairs I haven`t flown. I have hit a few good pairings, some not so good.
The "rule" is to fly a bird out for two years before even considering for the stock loft. Provided it has met all the flyer criteria it still has other tests to pass. Is it a breeder or strictly a flyer? Can it produce better than itself? Are you scared to put it on another cock if it doesnt work out with the patriarch?
When introducing a new bird into the program there are many variables to consider and these are just a few.
mtc
----------
V99
Flippin`The Bird!
http://www.bluedotloft.50megs.com
Last Edited by on Aug 30, 2007 4:43 PM
|
DeepSpinLofts
135 posts
Aug 30, 2007
5:40 PM
|
Ahh yes..., the Pensom Rule:
====> The "rule" is to fly a bird out for two years before even considering for the stock loft.
{P.S.} Keep flippin them birds!
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
Last Edited by on Aug 30, 2007 5:41 PM
|
MILO
426 posts
Aug 30, 2007
6:14 PM
|
Kenny.
You know, if you are in the same boat I would try to stay close to the high percentage matings. It's not a perfect world, and I realize a lot of guys get birds they have no idea about or spend some good money on them and prefer to try them immediately in the pen. So, having said that I would try to find what works for you. The birds that bum me out the most are the ones that explode on one mate and dud on another. I like the ones that click on multiple pairings. That is the way to go in my opinion. You will find in a lot of lofts, guys that are collecting families are the ones with the lowest numbers, and the highest frustration...lol The tight families, I am talking a whole loft you aquire from one guy, are the ones that pan out. All the hard work is done for you. You just have to identify the producers and go from there.
c
|
Velo99
1285 posts
Aug 30, 2007
7:27 PM
|
Milo,
Thats where I am now
Second season with different matings on the higher percentage producers this season. So far so good.
----------
V99
Flippin`The Bird!
http://www.bluedotloft.50megs.com
Last Edited by on Aug 30, 2007 7:28 PM
|
DeepSpinLofts
136 posts
Aug 30, 2007
10:22 PM
|
Good idea:
=====> "The tight families, I am talking a whole loft you aquire from one guy, are the ones that pan out."
It has worked for me.
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
|
SiDLoVE
68 posts
Aug 30, 2007
10:43 PM
|
Marcus....am in ur area can i go over and see your birds fly and your loft full of donuts....and your donuts in the air? i also would like to do video with top of the line equipment to record from far hieght. cant miss a roll....Thanks
Last Edited by on Aug 30, 2007 10:46 PM
|
DeepSpinLofts
137 posts
Aug 31, 2007
12:13 AM
|
Sid... I'm moving my entire set-up in about a week or two on over to my new place of residence.
I recently shipped a lot of birds off to Baltimore (due to problems with neighbors) and right now things aren't too cool around my current residence where I can have guests over.
I had to move my birds from the Travis Air-Force Base district to my in-laws home in Suisun City where there's no problem keeping my birds. As a matter of fact.... my in-laws spend Thursdays, Fridays and Saturdays with me and my wife at their home in Suisun City. The deal is that as long as my pigeons are at my wifes parents house I can not have any visitors over. Sorry about that Sid.
Email me @ =====> deepspinners@usa.com
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts.
Last Edited by on Aug 31, 2007 5:53 AM
|
DeepSpinLofts
138 posts
Aug 31, 2007
6:01 AM
|
Milo.... I edited the 8th message on this thread. It was last edited on Aug 31st, 2007 @ 5:59 A.M.
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
Last Edited by on Aug 31, 2007 6:02 AM
|
MILO
427 posts
Aug 31, 2007
7:12 AM
|
Ya.
Sounds better.
c
|
BigBob
7 posts
Aug 31, 2007
7:29 AM
|
Thanks guys for the input. I know you are supposed to fly a bird for 2 years before putting it in the stock loft but I think that rule was made way back when BOP attacks were rare or at least infrequent. I think if Mr. Pensom were here now he would adapt his breeding practices to fit the times and hazards that we are facing now. Especially if he was just starting out.
This thread has definately helped me decide what to do. With my family being very closely line bred to begin with has given me a little head start on developing a good loft of rollers. I am hoping that the comment of developing more roll downs from the father daughter mating doesn't happen. I am starting to figure out what breedings are producing roll downs and I sure don't want to start increasing that. All in all I would say this thread has been a help to the novice and that was why he started it.
----------
Big Bob
Fire Tower Roller Lofts
|
MILO
428 posts
Aug 31, 2007
8:02 AM
|
Good deal Bob. Glad you found it useful. You know, I never thought about Pensom and the BOP thing. I wonder what he would do today.
Good luck with the program, I'm sure you will have some good 'uns in no time.
c
|
W@yne
634 posts
Aug 31, 2007
9:00 AM
|
Good deal Bob. Glad you found it useful. You know, I never thought about Pensom and the BOP thing. I wonder what he would do today.
I think with all the BOP goings on and the problems over there regarding hawks etc.
I think Pensom would of gathered his family and belongings and moved back to sunny UK (Black country) Birmingham.
!!!!!!Just a thought!!!!!!!
----------
Regards
W@yne UK
Patience Perseverance Perfection
=====================================
|
MILO
429 posts
Aug 31, 2007
11:08 AM
|
I think you're right...lol
c
|
Skylineloft
110 posts
Aug 31, 2007
11:24 AM
|
In years past,
I lost too many good ones in the air trying to fly them all season.
It would get to the point where I had nothing for the stock pen.
The whole year would be lost as far as building my family of birds.
Just starting out this year, I remember that lesson well.
So far I have put three great spinners away.
Taking care of the stock pen first.
All these birds came from proven producers that where loaned to me by a good friend.
If I loose them, I can't replace them.
If you cant afford to loose a bird that your flying in the air.
Put it away. You will be glad you did.
Ray
Last Edited by on Aug 31, 2007 11:24 AM
|
DeepSpinLofts
139 posts
Aug 31, 2007
12:23 PM
|
I agree 100%
>>>>>If you cant afford to loose a bird that your flying in the air. Put it away.<<<<<
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
|
jay01
1 post
Apr 18, 2008
8:07 AM
|
hi every body im a roller man from South Africa,and i do not want to start anything, but i think we here in SA have some of the worlds best,but besides that i have been doing alot of reading othe posts you guyz have been writing and i have to say most of you have an obscure vision of what a champion is and how to go about getting more from the good-greet birds you have.on the topic of the "hole" it i a fact that not many show the hole, and the hole only denotes style and not speed/velocity.and i do not see the point or sense of having birds fly out of eye sight and then calling that a champ, like with one of your greats over there David Kowalski and his strain of birds those birds were in magority useless,but ther were a hand full of mediocre birds in that family(that was imported by K.G.Tommy to SA.sorry guys but bigggg ups to the breeders and flyers that truely breed the birmingham roller for what it realy should be, a top class breed. this is not meant to disrespect anyone, but it is meant to make breeders think about the standards that they are maintaining in their families of birds.
|
luis
810 posts
Apr 18, 2008
12:33 PM
|
So jay,to what standards do you and other SA breeders stick to that we don't,and what would you say separates your birds from ours?Please articulate,for i'm realy interested in your answer!
|
quickspin
526 posts
Apr 18, 2008
2:59 PM
|
The problem I'm seen right now is that all the good birds are stock and have nothing to show in the air. How many pairs is enough to have and not keeping adding more but replacing the old breeders with the better offspring. I think this rule should help many, replacing old breeders by the younger and better offspring. This is one way we are going to improve not by staying with the same breeders and producing the same thing every time.
Not all are breeders produce high % of keepers and we all know that there is a certain pairs in are loft that produces higher % than the rest. Why don't you breed more out of that pair and stock those birds and get rid of the other breeders?
Talking to many of the top flyers and all have said the same thing. Breed the best not quantity and this takes time. You will not have success or know all your pairs in one season, takes them a couple of years to know which direction you are going to go.
Also stop adding birds from some one else and go to your loft and pick from your own kit. Because you will find a better one out of your own line. Unless you are not happy with your results.
----------
SALAS LOFT
|
PR_rollers
905 posts
Apr 18, 2008
8:16 PM
|
Hey Jay, I agree with you on that judging a bird as a good bird because of the hole or calling it a champ is not a way to go ,where in fact a hole is just an illusion ,some birds you won't even see a hole especially if you standing in the wrong direction of the bird when he is rolling sideways which that is the only time you can see the hole from the side view.now as calling David Kowalski our greats over here.where you hear that from .David made his name from writing a good book. but we never call him our great . now W.H.Pensom he was great.not only can he write but he can breed, train and fly too...but I'm curious just like Luis is too tell us a little about your birds and there standards over there in S.A.
----------
----------
Ralph....
|
sippi
171 posts
Apr 18, 2008
8:31 PM
|
Milo you started a good thread. I believe in best to best but with balance. If a bird is a good fast spinner then I look for another good fast spinner to breed it to.
But I also consider balance as well. Is one a little long of cast? If so I dont mate it to another long cast bird. Balance.
I care not about color, at least not right now. I will have to play with the soft/hard color thing before I believe it. I am a little hard headed.
I started with all one tight family and have never seen half my stock birds fly. I will never fly them.
Dont fly what you cant afford to lose. I will switch them around next year and see who is prepotent with any mate and who is a one hit wonder.
In two years I hope to have a kit of all brothers and sisters. Then I will be ready.
Sippi
|
sippi
172 posts
Apr 18, 2008
8:32 PM
|
Milo you started a good thread. I believe in best to best but with balance. If a bird is a good fast spinner then I look for another good fast spinner to breed it to.
But I also consider balance as well. Is one a little long of cast? If so I dont mate it to another long cast bird. Balance.
I care not about color, at least not right now. I will have to play with the soft/hard color thing before I believe it. I am a little hard headed.
I started with all one tight family and have never seen half my stock birds fly. I will never fly them.
Dont fly what you cant afford to lose. I will switch them around next year and see who is prepotent with any mate and who is a one hit wonder.
In two years I hope to have a kit of all brothers and sisters. Then I will be ready.
Sippi
|
Joe K
3 posts
Apr 18, 2008
11:20 PM
|
Are You guys talkin about Winchells? MMmmm? Thats what Im gonna call My next good one "Winchell" LOL
|
MILO
914 posts
Apr 19, 2008
9:53 AM
|
Did I miss something here Jay? Who said Kowalski was one of our greats? Writing a book makes someone great? That's funny. I disagree that "most" of us over here don't know what to look for in a champion. Some of the best birds in the world are over here too. Interesting input, and welcome to the site.
c
|
PR_rollers
912 posts
Apr 19, 2008
12:02 PM
|
Milo welcome back too ///lol....and this time stay ..
----------
Ralph....
|
sundance
605 posts
Apr 19, 2008
12:14 PM
|
could "best to best" be a little too general a term.
Should Pensom have been a little more specific for the benefit of those not understanding already?
I see "best to best" being more things like....
best deep bird to best shallow bird.
best hard feather bird to best soft feather bird.
maybe even best kit bird to best performer.
all things over time breeding like this can create a family of best overall birds. hmmm. afterall , if you only breed your best to your best, do you only have 1 pair????
then what? second best to second best and so on..?
----------
Butch @
Sundance Roller Lofts
|
Velo99
1664 posts
Apr 19, 2008
1:56 PM
|
Butch
you foster and hope you have one good bird thats not related.
----------
V99
Keep the best. Eat the rest.
|
sundance
609 posts
Apr 19, 2008
3:14 PM
|
you lost me Kenny."one good bird thats not related"...Huh?
----------
Butch @
Sundance Roller Lofts
|
Velo99
1665 posts
Apr 19, 2008
8:20 PM
|
Butch
one good one besides the pair you intend to breed.for hybrid vigor.that should come pretty early when you run one pair.
got me now amigo? I was as clear as mud eh?
I do think that your previous post is the exact reason some guys have more succes with a particular line than other fanciers. They know or have enough experience,to make the proper adjustments in the early stages and minimie the amount of time expended on breeding worthless birds.
----------
V99
Keep the best. Eat the rest.
Last Edited by on Apr 19, 2008 8:23 PM
|
jay01
2 posts
Apr 22, 2008
3:13 AM
|
well luis, for starters we do not promote the high flying type dont get me wrong our birds do not hover over roof tops, but a reasonible hight that is judgable and if your eyes are in good shape you dont need a pair of binoculus to see if the bird is performing with correct style and not to mention velocity. secondly the thing about the hole in the middle, firstly its not a hole but it is a space between the small of the back and the head forcing itself towards the back and on that note for a bird to roll straight down in an line and not being loose in the roll just dictates style and not the velocity of that bird and further mire even the great Pensom said it, that roller men often axegerate about the depth of the roll and that after about 40feet(not to sure about the actual distance but it is round about that) the bird either begins to slow down(im sure anyone wouldnt want to say you have slow birds)or the bird begins to show improper form. and in South Africa we often see birds that roll about 40feet and landing but that is not a pretty sight, because that birds eyes is either raptured or bloodshot now i just cant believe that what most guyz say over there about 50-100feet, id hate to see a bird that rolls that deep when a 30-40footer lands with blodshot eyes. just a thouth on the standards how do you say it "home boys".
|
jay01
3 posts
Apr 22, 2008
6:39 AM
|
and is that a champ that cannot control itself so that it would not hurt itself. and i agree that you guyz do have some of the best birds over there, and like i said big ups to the guyz that know what the champ posseses, note note saying "true champ" because iv read you guyz writing about a blur and all that stuff
|