DeepSpinLofts
157 posts
Sep 13, 2007
12:02 AM
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NOTE: Bruce Cooper wrote an article after Bill Pensom visited the Northwest in November of 1963 and after Cooper visited Pensom in California. Below is a question that Bruce Cooper asked Bill Pensom and the answer Pensom gave him is what follows.
Question BC: Of what value is a pigeon that never rolls in three years of flying?
Answer WHP: This bird can be a good one still if it is bred off of spinners and it has the character and type. All birds must be bred to one ideal - that of high velocity spinning.
A bird of good stock may possess the character and expression, but never roll itself. Very few men can see the expression. The bird must be of ideal type if he is a nonperformer after three years and only if he is bred out from the best possible stock.
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deepspinners@usa.com
Last Edited by on Sep 13, 2007 12:05 AM
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MILO
454 posts
Sep 13, 2007
6:36 AM
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Fast forward to 2007.
No. I would never consider such a bird. Life is too short, and who has the time.
My question is this...Why would you ever put a bird into your program that would have the trait of non-rolling?
Could it produce? Yes. But why screw around with your percentages? It makes no sense to me. No sense at all.
Nevermind what Pensom said.
c
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crystalpalace
69 posts
Sep 13, 2007
6:38 AM
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William Bill Pensom knew that answer because of many years in the roller breed. A breeder with the experience that Bill Pensom possed can select breeders the same as Bill Pensom. The breeder has to know how to select the proper birds from expression and overal body type and sryle. Then it is important that you have experience breeding and flying that family too. But a breeder that is capible picking stock from the hand can do so succesfully. If you have a bird that is flown for many years and only flips or not mate it to a bird that does perform. This can be called challenged breeding. In the roller sport, Ray
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crystalpalace
70 posts
Sep 13, 2007
7:14 AM
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This is somemore information to think of Milo and fellow roller breeders. Herb Sparks has many non performers in his pedigree papers and he is a succesfull roller breeder. I did the same many years ago with success but i dont practise that method anymore. I think Kenny picks the majority of his breeders out of the air. Perhaps he will respond to this question soon. His birds are coming into the spin at a early age therefore this should tell us that his breeders performed within a year or less. In the sport,Ray
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3757
135 posts
Sep 13, 2007
7:35 AM
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Ray - I must add that Herb understands as Bill did that a bird has to be a producer. This is what we strive for the producers and if you have bred birds for years as I have you understand that not all of the great spinners are producers. 90 percent of Herbs birds today are off of top spinners. However, when you know your family you do not worry because you know the Gene pool. These individuals that bash Bill always try to say that people are living in the past this is hogwash. You learn from the past and move on but you do not bash one of the greatest. People only look at the now which is pitiful.
Last Edited by on Apr 08, 2008 9:39 PM
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MILO
455 posts
Sep 13, 2007
8:33 AM
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I know it can be done. I have worked with this family long enough to pick a good one very early in the box without seeing it roll. BUT, it is not the sort of advice I would give a new fancier. Never. For those that do not know the ins-and-outs of the family they are working with, it is a recipe for disaster, and can lead only to frustration.
I do not want to take anything away from the seemingly infinite wisdom of Pensom, but lets face it, there weren't too many birds the man hadn't either flown out himself, or at least had the chance to handle. Everything passed through his hands. You would be hard pressed to show the man something he had never seen.
Another point: If every bird off of the best roller in your loft was dead, and if that bird were so old that you were only looking at a couple rounds from that bird...Ya, stock everything you can. But if you have the means to make more, fly the darn things out...LOL JMO.
c
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kcfirl
200 posts
Sep 13, 2007
8:42 AM
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Ray/All,
I fully agree that a non-roller can produce good rollers. I would breed every typey, expression filled kit bird I have if I had unlimited time. I don't. I have very limited time. Therefore, I breeed only from birds that show it in the air and have the right type. Expression is something that I have yet to get a good handle on.
Furthermore, I know personally Don O, Heine B, Jay S, Scott C, Joe E, Ken E, KGB, Tim D, Joe Bob S, all of which recommend choosing breeding stock from performers primarily, only using type and expression as distant 2nd order criteria. OF course, all have used birds which may not have performed ideally but which had some performance feature they felt they needed in their families.
The idea that one should pick from type and expression primarily, is an idea that will only cause frustration and delayed advancement. The one time type and expression should be used is when the performance of thebirds is not known, but the family is well bred, such as when one is starting out and is able to get some squeekers but chooses not to fly them for fear of losing them. Let them grow up and use type and expression for mating seclection as a last resort.
Regards,
Ken Firl
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DeepSpinLofts
158 posts
Sep 13, 2007
9:02 AM
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Ken... I agree with you in general.
....however
What about roller enthusiasts and fanciers who buy young birds that have never been flown before or even had the privilege of seeing any of the young birds parents fly?
Quite often newcomers (and some roller folks that's been around for a while) will come across a breeder & trainer who gives them young birds that have never been flown only to say: "I would not fly these birds... I would stock them and breed them in a few months after the second moult."
What about that Ken?
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
Last Edited by on Sep 13, 2007 9:03 AM
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Alohazona
311 posts
Sep 13, 2007
10:45 AM
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Dr. LD,
I agree with you 100%!!!...It takes a while to fully understand something.I have been a cabinetmaker for 27 years,my partner and myself often look back at the patience that was offered up freely by our mentors.Living in the past is what some call it.Adhering to solid fundamentals is more along the lines of what I call it,that's not it's full description though.
Would I breed from a non or late performer,YES,and I would continue to,only if they produced.I have a hen bred by the late Dick Stephens a black badge, a grandaughter of #266 x"the polished cookie hen.She has gotten out of my loft on several occasions,never had I seen even a flip from her.She produces no matter who she is paired up with,just like her mother,who was never flown.This hen could win a show,it goes without saying she is my foundation stock along with her daughter.BTW,In Mr.Stephens declining years and after dispersing all of his birds,the only one remaining,that he would not let go of,yes, "the polished cookie hen",again,never flown.
Name all the names you want,you have to try for yourself,that is the point I am trying to portray,timelines and shortcuts aside,thats the fundamentals...Aloha,Todd
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3757
136 posts
Sep 13, 2007
1:59 PM
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Aloha Todd - Thanks and this is when you start knowing your family. My birds are from Bruce Cooper and I have a small line that I obtained directly from Herb Sparkes himself. Herb and Bruce are both dear friends and I have learned a lot from them. Could I bash them 30 years from now? No way!!!!!! Good luck with your family of birds.
Dr. LD
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Double D
354 posts
Sep 13, 2007
8:42 PM
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Deep Spin Lofts,
I did exactly what you described. I was able to get a kit of birds from Ivan Hanchett, whose family came to him from Bruce Cooper consequently.
I didn't want to take a chance on flying any of those birds out. I am in my second year of breeding though and it's taken a long time to find out which ones of the original 20 are consistent producers and honestly, there's only one cock that I think I've closed in on by flying out his young that could be a potential foundation cock for me. This certainly is the long road to get there but it can be done with the right family.
I think you're right though, many a new fancier has to start out just this way.
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Darin Olson
Checkerboard Lofts
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Electric-man
572 posts
Sep 13, 2007
9:23 PM
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This is my method as a new guy! I have Joe Urban birds, Gary Stephens birds, Dave Hendersons, Even some of Tonys Rubies! Surely, I have something that will pan out! I have to believe it, or there is no since in moving on!
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Val
"Site Moderator"
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