3757
138 posts
Sep 20, 2007
6:23 AM
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As many of you know I have raised roller for 39 years now and I believe in Velocity and Style first as did the originators of the breed in the Black Country. I would like to poll the group to find out the following:
If you had three things to choose only which would be the number one in stocking a bird for your loft?
Depth?
Frequency?
Velocity / Style?
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bman
387 posts
Sep 20, 2007
7:04 AM
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I would have to go with velocity.
But without the other two I think your in trouble.
Hey Doc how you feeling.
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Ron
Borderline lofts
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3757
140 posts
Sep 20, 2007
8:06 AM
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Thanks Bman and steve for the response. I am trying to collect data on this and then I will move on to other important Roller subjects.
Also - Bman, I am much better now!
Thanks
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SAT Roller
37 posts
Sep 20, 2007
8:37 AM
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Velocity would definitely be first in my book, followed by depth.
I think frequency comes into play if you compete a lot.
When I had birds years ago that would scream for 30-50 feet and were only spinning every 1.5-2 minutes I could stand it if they were as tight as it gets. The thrill/pleasure they provide is worth the wait...
Richard
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roll-n-4-ever
35 posts
Sep 20, 2007
10:42 AM
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...THE ONE MOST IMPORTANT THING IS A TIGHT KITTING FAMILY OF BIRDS. ONCE YOU HAVE THAT YOU CAN ADD THE DESIRED ROLL TO ANY FALIMY.. VELOCITY AND STYLE WOULD BE THE NEXT THING ON THE LIST.
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crystalpalace
89 posts
Sep 20, 2007
10:49 AM
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Velosity and style are the most important features in flying competition rollers. Then they have to spin straight whatever the depth is and break out of the spin clean and go direck to the kit. When the kit is in great flying condition along with a proper diet and rest the frquency will get better. Some families have more frequency than others but frequency can be achieved with most good families. Anyway that has been my experience in flying rollers and i have flown the best stock from the U.S.A. and Europe. Once you get twenty turns per fly you should get more turns and forty is a very good number or goal. When you get forty or more frequent turns the kit has a tendosy to fall apart. Ray
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Ballrollers
885 posts
Sep 20, 2007
12:20 PM
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4ever,
I'm not so sure I agree with "you can add the desired roll to any family". Kitting is important, but having the genetic package for rolleing is essential first and foremost. You can't just "add it", in my experience. Same with style...it's difficult to just "add it" if your birds are axle-rollers, and you prefer they be A-wing style. Velocity is a little easier to work with, because in any family, it seems like you get variable speed among the offspring and you can select for it. But awesome speed.....well again, I don't see how we just "add it". It has to be there in the package.
JMHO,
Cliff
Last Edited by on Sep 20, 2007 12:24 PM
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1631 posts
Sep 20, 2007
12:31 PM
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The desire and ability to roll frequently is the primary trait I look for, then it is velocity...
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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roll-n-4-ever
37 posts
Sep 20, 2007
12:59 PM
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MAYBE I'M JUST LUCKY.... If the bird rolls 25 feet fast, frequent, with A pattern but cant kit what good is it? I WILL NEVER EVER AGAIN BREED A BIRD THAT DONT HAVE ALL CHARACTERISTICS OF A GREAT ROLLER...
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3757
141 posts
Sep 20, 2007
1:35 PM
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Thanks all! And remember if they do not have hypervelocity (genetically) you are not going to get it! I am a velocity nut and thanks again for the responses.
Last Edited by on Sep 20, 2007 1:40 PM
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birdman
367 posts
Sep 20, 2007
4:16 PM
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Quote: "Thanks all! And remember if they do not have hypervelocity (genetically) you are not going to get it! I am a velocity nut and thanks again for the responses"
LD,
Based on your statement above I will ask you a question that was recently asked of me.
Question: If they do not have hypervelocity and are never going to get it then where did it originally come from?
Thanks,
Russ
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3757
142 posts
Sep 20, 2007
5:22 PM
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Russ - My quote was to get individuals to think about cultivating high velocity spinners as a first priority. Genetically we understand that it can pop up even from birds that are not bred for this purpose but statistically it becomes rare or lessened due to the fact that certain families are not cultivating birds for this purpose foremost. If you have blue eyes and your wife and grandparents etc the chances increase but the eye color Blue has appeared in all races of man because it is there genetically. So, it is within the gene structure but it can be increased if the understanding of breeding for it is understood.
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Mongrel Lofts
364 posts
Sep 20, 2007
5:38 PM
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3757,
I can tell you this, The hardest thing to breed in rollers is good style.. Great speed can hide a lot of faults if its fast enough! To truly breed the best of the Birmingham roller, you have got to go with style if you can only pick one of your choices.. If you have birds that roll with the {} wings up and bent in style you can easily add speed to this style.. It will almost come due to the style. If you have great speed with corn cob axle style >< wings straight out or low X.. You can spend a life time trying to correct and improve poor style. I love Speed as much as anyone, but those who really understand the breed, know that style is the hardest thing to breed consistantly.. Great style with great speed and you have got yourself a Birmingham roller.. Just my opinion,, KGB
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CSRA
268 posts
Sep 20, 2007
6:51 PM
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i agree with you kgb 100 percent
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Electric-man
589 posts
Sep 20, 2007
7:02 PM
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Go back to the first question, that is what Dr.LD stated in the first line:
As many of you know I have raised roller for 39 years now and I believe in Velocity and Style first as did the originators of the breed in the Black Country.
I'm with you, Doc!LOL
Val
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birdman
368 posts
Sep 20, 2007
7:34 PM
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3757,
I agree with you about velocity and style. If these birds weren't capable of the high velocity rolling then I would'nt enjoy them nearly as much. Velocity is a top priority for me.
Russ
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3757
144 posts
Sep 20, 2007
7:54 PM
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Val / Russ Thanks!
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Donny James
45 posts
Sep 20, 2007
8:27 PM
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hay 3757,
i have agree with kgb (kenny billimgs)he knows what hes talking about........take his avice........donny james
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3757
145 posts
Sep 20, 2007
8:41 PM
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Donny - I think Kenny agreed with me. Look at all of my statements including the first statement. But thanks for you comment.
Last Edited by on Sep 20, 2007 8:44 PM
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Mongrel Lofts
365 posts
Sep 20, 2007
9:16 PM
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3757,
I see where you are tying style and velocity together. The point to my post was they do not always come hand in hand.. I have seen many very fast axle wing rollers.. from the side they can be balling up hard,, but you see them from underneath and the truff comes out ><. Style does not mean great speed and great speed does not mean good style. I do see that you added your two favorites together. I guess I wasn't clear. Its harder to breed great style so it is first. Then great speed.. Its easier to breed them fast, than it is to breed them with {} wings up style.. Many of the English birds roll with very good style but lack hyper velocity.. Many of the Jacconnett birds I have seen over the years,, roll with high velocity, but low X wing poor style.. So lets be clear, what would you breed for first. Speed or style.. Leave the rest out, do you agree style is first then speed? KGB
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gotspin7
152 posts
Sep 21, 2007
3:55 AM
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VELOCITY/STYLE! GOOD POST!
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3757
146 posts
Sep 21, 2007
5:36 AM
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Ken - Great question. I have witnessed many birds through the years and a bird that rolls with its wings out etc, no matter how fast, is garbage in my book. I still believe that you have to have both hand in hand. But your point is well taking. If you have a lot of fast birds with horrible style (Wings out etc) they are no good in my opinion. There are strains with good style but they do not have velocity. They try and try to breed them faster but they do not get the speed we are speaking of. I have to tell you a quick story. I have a friend who judged the fly's here last year and a gentleman flew a kit with three awesome high velocity spinners. The judge almost fell to his knees when these birds spun but the crowd did not even pay attention and said that the birds were stiff. I could not believe that they did not see these birds. They were so fast it was like a UFO had passed by. These were the type of pigeons Howard, Bill Patrick, Richard Lowry, Doug Thorley and Bill Pensom always strived for. I was dumbfounded because I truly believe that these guys had never seen pigeons like this before but it did not impress them. These pigeons were not average speed but champion blinding fast with awesome style.
Last Edited by on Sep 21, 2007 5:37 AM
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W@yne
655 posts
Sep 21, 2007
6:41 AM
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This subject always seem to be raised time and time again and it sure is a very hard one. Me myself i would always go for speed slightly and i mean very slightly before wing position of a true Birmingham Roller i know a lot of you guys will disagree with me especially Kenny and Sccotty Lol and that is cool but to breed good fast rollers the bird has to have the motor and that speed factor attached to that particular family of birds in the first place. Getting speed into your birds isn't as easy as you think. I know birds over here in the UK from one area to the next you can notice considerable speed differences within different families of rollers around. Some great flyers over here cant seem to get that speed factor blur to their birds but the wing position and roll is faultless. I'm for having that speed factor to start with and i would work with the wing position over a period of time within that family of birds. But wing position is as much important in the roller as speed is its just that there is plenty of excellent quality birds over here but not everyone flys rapid speed birds.
JMHO
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Regards
W@yne UK
Patience Perseverance Perfection
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Last Edited by on Sep 21, 2007 10:34 AM
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gotspin7
168 posts
Sep 22, 2007
8:08 AM
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3757,any pics of those fine spinning pigeons?
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Electric-man
593 posts
Sep 22, 2007
11:59 AM
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Dr. LD, is a great person! He knows rollers, been raising them for 40 yrs! Were lucky to have him around! Hope that we all show him respect here!
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Val
"Site Moderator"
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belle
300 posts
Sep 22, 2007
12:24 PM
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Velocity first, and then a mix between depth and frequency.
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Justin
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roll-n-4-ever
41 posts
Sep 22, 2007
1:27 PM
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If you guys like speed wait until i can fly my kit again and i will show you PURE SPEED. We have a cock we call him TURBO, i will tape him rolling and up load @ real speed and you will see him rip it up... Ive been told by a few people that he is without a boubt the fastest spinner they ever seen.... I'VE HAD PEOPLE OFFER $500.00 FOR THIS COCK.
2 young off of him and my 101 hen both blew their asses out..
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3757
147 posts
Sep 22, 2007
1:41 PM
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Thanks Val and thanks to all who responded to the question.
Last Edited by on Sep 22, 2007 1:42 PM
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Skylineloft
173 posts
Sep 22, 2007
2:12 PM
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roll-n-4-ever,
I always enjoy seeing rollers on video.
Ray
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bman
392 posts
Sep 23, 2007
2:23 PM
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Gotspin here's one of Doc's
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Ron
Borderline lofts
Last Edited by on Sep 23, 2007 2:23 PM
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bman
393 posts
Sep 23, 2007
2:25 PM
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Here's one more.
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Ron
Borderline lofts
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3757
148 posts
Sep 24, 2007
10:44 AM
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Thanks Ron! Also, I will repond to your e-mail soon.
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bman
394 posts
Sep 24, 2007
11:27 AM
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Hey Doc,
No problem, I'm not the best with a camera.........by the way the youngsters have really come on in the last month.One ash/red hen (5 months old) is blistering fast!!!
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Ron
Borderline lofts
Last Edited by on Sep 24, 2007 11:34 AM
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3757
150 posts
Sep 24, 2007
1:18 PM
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Great Ron! I am glad you are happy with the birds I sent you. Keep the high velocity ones and go from there.
Dr. LD
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MILO
464 posts
Sep 24, 2007
5:14 PM
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Hi guys.
After much thought and consideration, I would rank speed first, then style second, before all others. I noticed a lot of guys put style first. Why is that? I put speed first because I want greater numbers of higher velocity birds. I feel that is the hardest attribute to capture and retain. Style is a slippery slope for me. A perfect () style roller in the air is not a lock, as far as being a producer of the same. It just isn't. I would rather take my chances with maximum speed birds producing a better style roll. It's in there, just that's the end of the rope I like to begin from really. Far too many times have I seen where a great style roller has produced just as many axle and X wingers as the next. At the end of the day it is what you want to see in the air. I would much rather see 75% of the group rolling with superior speed, than 75% H-() style rollers with average velocity. That's just my cup of tea...lol And yes, a really fast bird, on it's best day can very easily hide it's wing style flaws. In a perfect world we want both, but to give the thread some momentum, that's my side of the fence.
c
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tapp
327 posts
Sep 24, 2007
5:34 PM
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Guys and gals, if you have a bird with blinding speed wouldn't the style be about as good as it gets? It seems to me if the wing position was off it wouldn't be a fast spinner.I'll breed for speed first.PS, They have to kit first because if they are out in no mans land, no matter how good they are, they are useless to me.----------
Tapp
Last Edited by on Sep 24, 2007 5:43 PM
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birdman
369 posts
Sep 24, 2007
8:02 PM
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Tapp,
Speed and style are not the same thing. A fast bird can have poor style and a slow bird can have good style.
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bman
395 posts
Sep 25, 2007
6:26 AM
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The bird I mentioned above is 5 months old and just started rolling in the last two weeks.She is only going about 10 feet but is so fast I really can't evaluate her stlye. When she comes out it looks like you hit her with a tennis racket back into the kit.Style ?? I don't know but would like about 19 more like that.LOL
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Ron
Borderline lofts
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Otis
65 posts
Sep 25, 2007
7:02 AM
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I'm quite sold on you must have frequency (the motor) first and foremost, followed by a strong need to see ultimate style and to breed for both! The do it right bird....in all facets, especially the finish makes it right. I feel a better styled bird produces greater speed coupled with the right motor as it makes the spin a more effortless endeavor for the bird, hence the bird enjoys the roll more thus is more apt to execute it more frequently. I have this big ole' cock bird that I use as a pumper that rolled the most perfect style donut, 4 second roll I've ever seen with a superb finish. I refrained from using him because I thought he just didn't drop fast enough. I recently changed my mind, I'm gonna use him next year on the fastest little hen I can fly out, cause I just can't help believing thiers no substitute for proper style in the roll! What do you think? Otis
Last Edited by on Sep 27, 2007 7:19 AM
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