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The Original All Roller Talk Discussion Board Archive >
why did pensom get the boot?
why did pensom get the boot?
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hardtimekenl2
72 posts
Oct 11, 2007
4:11 PM
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just want to know why mr.pensom got kicked out of his on club .that keep his name?
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nicksiders
2287 posts
Oct 11, 2007
6:14 PM
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I don't think anybody wants to touch this one. He, J. Leroy Smith, Lutes, Baker, Vaughn, Plona and a few others that I am sure I missed went off and created the NBRC. From this you should be able to understand what was happening in the PRC. In 1961 I was in high school, so I can't tell anymore than what I have heard.
Nick
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BigRiverRollerLofts
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birdman
393 posts
Oct 11, 2007
7:01 PM
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It's not a big secret. He wasn't kicked out of the club, he resigned on his own accord.
When the club was formed it was for the cultivation of deep spinning, quality rollers. After some time there was a shift by some to breed for the showpen and dual purpose rollers. This shift in thinking caused a division in membership and the more informed TRUE rollermen started leaving the club. Pensom tried to educate the less informed in the errors of their thinking and imported some birds to demonstrate how they were heading down the wrong road. It didn't do much good though. In the end Pensom left the club when it became apparent that the majority of members in the club were not interested in cultivating quality performers and were only interested in breeding pretty show birds. Also,it was recently brought to my attention that there were some in the club that wanted Pensom booted out because he also kept modenas and homers, which was a violation of the 'all Pensom'rule at that time.
I wasn't there but that's the way I understand the story. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
Russ
Last Edited by on Oct 11, 2007 10:25 PM
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pigeonflipper
15 posts
Oct 11, 2007
7:28 PM
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hi all,,,im just wondering after reading this post,,what are you guys realy breeding for and is compatition ruining the real rollers,,here in austrailia a lot of guys are breeding very shallow rollers say 10/15 foot shortewr rolls =more rolls=more points,,,,i on the other hand prefer deeper birds,,,if you are only after shallow birds i have seen west of england tumblers that will fill this space,anyway,,its just a question
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Alohazona
317 posts
Oct 11, 2007
8:41 PM
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Flipper,
This is probably another thread,but I'll take a poke at it.What I would like to think I am breeding for is Quality of roll,frequency[at least 2 a minute],bouyancy,balance and heart[desire to perform with others].I like birds that can go deep without hinderence of return performance.I like seperation ,quality,unity and frequency.I have no quality 3 + a minute rollers,when one arrives ,and it will,I look to circle my bloodlines around it.I currently have 3 cocks that are 2 minute,shootback A-framers.It will take me another 2 years to lock this side of my family.I am very fortunate to have this quality,but only thing is it will take me a couple of seasons to see if the offspring can be as good if not better.Second in line are the Ruby rollers I got from Tony 3 years ago,the complete package is there,simply outstanding roller pigeons,especially the lavenders,they just keep getting better,my MAHALO'S to Tony.I've said it before and I'll say it again,once you have the quality learn how to hang on to it,LOL...Aloha,Todd
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nicksiders
2288 posts
Oct 11, 2007
8:51 PM
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Well, many competition breeders will deny that this be the case......because they are in denial. But, they are addicted to the large simaltanious breaks and a quick recovery to do it again. Like in a lot of addictions the people having the addiction are usually in denial. If every bird in the kit was kitting tight and doing 10 to 20 footers they can more quickly re-kit and do it again and again and again and they will still achieve a 1.4 or 1.5 coeficient. If their velocity is high and the wing position satifactory they can achieve 1.4 to 1.7 on the quality side
If you got some birds that are doing 50; some 60; and a few 80 footers it is hard to get them back together quicly to do it again and again.
A deep roller anymore, is 30 feet. Extremely deep rollers will cause kaos in competition. Now they do give a higher coeficient for depth as well as for quality, but the activity is what puts you over the hump.
Okay guys, now you can tare me up. Tape my mouth shut and bite on me if you will.
Am I competitor?......yes I am. Do I like it?.....yes I do. Big simaltanious breaks excits the hell out of me and if it is at least 10 feet I am good with it.
Nick
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BigRiverRollerLofts
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pigeonflipper
16 posts
Oct 11, 2007
9:08 PM
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ok,,i understand,,,well il just keep my backyard thing happening,,lol,,,i like things that fly like they are supposed to ,,,il keep breeding my birmingham rollers,,,you all keep breeding your birmingham tumblers,,maybe you could infuse some of that turkish tumbler blood in to them,,lol,,
ps,,this is all tongue in cheek,,so stop clutching your heart,,,,cheers
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FLY HIGH=ROLL DEEP
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3757
167 posts
Oct 12, 2007
7:16 AM
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Regarding the PRC, Bill did not get out of the club solely because Evans showed his birds and the other showmen. Evans was also a good fly man. Bill Pensom imported the competition badges both red and black to show fliers how simultaneous performance would ruin the true high velocity spinning qualities of the true Birmingham roller. The rules of the PRC stated you could only have pure Pensom rollers. Bill thought this was nonsense because he was edifying the roller men of the day. He resigned from the club and formed the NBRC, which was first a club he had started in England many years prior. It is not true that all of flying men left the PRC. Most left but some did not. Stan Plona was a member until he died in 1979 and there were a few others.
I joined late last year (Banding 2007 PRC) and have since taking over the club with the consent of Mr. Miles. We only have a few members left myself, Charlie and a few more. Next year the bands are gold PRC. Most of the other show members had to quit due to the fact that their birds were crossed and could not prove that the birds traced back to the original imports.
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MILO
586 posts
Oct 12, 2007
10:55 AM
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Most interesting. There are how many members?
c
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gotspin7
245 posts
Oct 13, 2007
5:20 AM
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3757, you have pure pensoms?
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3757
168 posts
Oct 13, 2007
8:19 AM
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Got Spin - The club rule still applies and has not changed which is you must have birds that trace back to the original Pensom imports known in America as Pensom's. My birds are from my mentor Bruce Cooper directly (who received his birds from Bill Pensom and I also acquired some that Bruce bred from another gentleman) and I have a sub-family from my good friend Herb Sparkes directly. Both are Pensom strain 100%. The other members in the club (which are only a few) have pure strain Pensom's also. Herb Sparkes received the last of the Pensom birds from Howard McCully when McCully died in 1975. The Pensom family of pigeons were bred for high velocity individual performance and that is why people do not have tbem today. Monty was one of the few who took hard core Pensom pigeons and won the world cup with them three times. Many people do not know that the Houghton's are Pensom pigeons also. Houghton used birds that he acquired directly from Bill Pensom, Hans Rottenbacher and Bruce Cooper.
Last Edited by on Oct 13, 2007 9:10 AM
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Phantom1
166 posts
Oct 13, 2007
12:38 PM
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Happy to see this topic being discussed and have been awaiting for some discussion on Pensom for a long time.
Now, in NO WAY am I participating on this forum or thread to breed bad blood. But I did have a question, based on something I "HEARD" from a cousin's nephew's best friend's girlfriend LOL. Okay, in other words, it was a rumor.
I had heard that Pensom commonly bought, traded, or accepted as free any roller pigeon from anyone's loft. Suddenly, it was a Pensom bird. Now, speaking of the dual-purpose roller that the PRC was evidently tracking down. If Pensom did practice this acquisition of stock, and the birds not being pure Pensom blood or even Roller blood, how is this any different than those seeking the duality of the roller within the PRC?
Just asking for some feedback and good discussion here. In no way am I intently slandering Pensom.
Thanks,
Eric
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MILO
589 posts
Oct 13, 2007
1:02 PM
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I am wondering why anyone cares? It can't be accurately known in this era anything that was common practice for Pensom, nor does it have ANY bearing on the families we breed today. How does anyone know that Pensom wasn't RE-collecting birds he had already loaned, or the offspring off those matings he liked? Let Pensom rest in peace, forget about his practices, and end the speculation. It really is a pointless search for information. It can't be confirmed or proven to show any relevance at all. Besides, most guys wouldn't even know a Pensom pedigreed pigeon if they were holding it in one hand, and the pedigree in the other. LOL I just don't get it.
c
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Phantom1
167 posts
Oct 13, 2007
1:19 PM
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Hey Milo,
I agree with most of what you believe. However, the topic is still alive and well. Maybe that should be the topic of discussion "Pensom - Why Should Anyone Care". I think what the man did for the breed, the hobby, and the sport is going to be a long-lived topic of discussion and rightly so. Many believe, to this day, that his writings are the Roller Bible. Without his foundation to both the PRC and NBRC, where would the hobby be? Personally I don't have a huge interest, but who am I? Evidently not one of the ones the seek his wisdom, experiences, and I don't own a single publication of his writings. Yet despite my voluntary blindness to the man, the name, and his history I'm often confronted with questions to the subject at hand.
I think what it boils down to is just conversation and to some - education. Me for one. No reason to shoot it down if one doesn't have a sound response to the position or question being proposed.
Again - I meant no disrespect to the man by offering up a rumor that I had heard. Merely seeking information, on the topic alone, to add to my knowledge of the life of the man. Not to discredit anyone, or anyone's birds.
Eric
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3757
169 posts
Oct 13, 2007
2:08 PM
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Milo - There are people who care and you are right most guys today would not know. However, there are lot of us who do and because you do not I respect your opinion. Who cares about King, George Washington, the founding fathers our civil rights etc? I have students who ask that question every semester and it is mind-boggling to me just as it is about the history of the Birmingham roller when someone says who cares?
Phantom - The rumors you hear are very skewed. Pensom did not take birds from anyones loft. His breeding records indicate a strong linebred and inbred family from the original imports. The birds he did take in were from other top breeders of the same family (Smith, Plona, John Spuria, Henry Lopez etc) except for the competition badges which he did import from England and a few birds that he imported from some of his friends in England that went back to the Bellfield or Richards birds.
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MILO
590 posts
Oct 13, 2007
3:27 PM
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You ENTIRELY missed my point. You are also mistaken about my dedication to preserving pure Pensoms. If you reread his post, he is asking questions about Pensom's practice of getting birds from other lofts...where he unknowingly, and innocently pokes holes is the purity argument. I love George Washington, but couldn't give a rats ass what kind of toothpaste he used.
c
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MILO
591 posts
Oct 13, 2007
3:34 PM
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I also find it amazing how even to this day, there are rumors still around about Pensom. I am only interested in the facts.
fact (f?kt)
n.
Knowledge or information based on real occurrences: an account based on fact; a blur of fact and fancy.
Something demonstrated to exist or known to have existed: Genetic engineering is now a fact. That Chaucer was a real person is an undisputed fact.
A real occurrence; an event: had to prove the facts of the case.
Something believed to be true or real: a document laced with mistaken facts.
A thing that has been done, especially a crime: an accessory before the fact.
Law. The aspect of a case at law comprising events determined by evidence: The jury made a finding of fact.
idiom:
in (point of) fact
In reality or in truth; actually.
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MILO
592 posts
Oct 13, 2007
3:56 PM
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Read this. Tony sells it for 12.50.
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hardtimekenl2
74 posts
Oct 13, 2007
6:20 PM
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MILO take a deep breath .. know let it out. is that better?
Last Edited by on Oct 13, 2007 6:22 PM
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Phantom1
168 posts
Oct 13, 2007
7:12 PM
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Folks, I'm not particpating in this discussion to breed bad blood. Between any other participant, potential reader, or the ghost of William H. Pensom. I've read his book. Cover to cover. And.....so?
I apologize if my question regarding a RUMOR....RUMOR...RUMOR....has caused the tension of this civil discussion to go off coarse. I was merely throwing it out there as a topic of potential interest, and possibly some good discussion.
However, my personal thoughts (based on the many old-timers that I've heard it from...and some new) he was what we'd call today "a pigeon peddler". It DOES NOT MAKE HIM LESS OF A MAN, NOR DOES IT NEGATE, ONE LITTLE THING HE DID FOR THIS SPORT, HOBBY, OR BREED!!!!!!!!!!!
Pigeon Peddler by my definition "A person that willingly distributes birds, either by his/her own breeding or not, as top quality stock. Also a person that accepts any bird from another breeder and turns it around for a profit". Of course there are exceptions...but for the most part, this is my personal belief.
Now - the PROFIT to Pensom, in my opinion, was the furtherment and promotion of the hobby. Based on what I've heard from those that knew him, he was an advocate of promoting the HOBBY FIRST, his birds second. This may be the simple truth to my proprosed rumor. Standing next to a man today that personally received a bird from the man himself is a rare experience. Walking away with the stories of that man is, to me, even more rare or not shared. But what if the "rumor" is true. Better to promote the hobby and plant the seed with any roller or pigeon, than to turn away a newbie to rollers because he didn't have any to part with.
I will never dis-credit anything about the man. Without him, I'm convinced the hobby, nor the sport would be where it is.
Eric
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MILO
596 posts
Oct 13, 2007
10:25 PM
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Pigeon Peddler...LOL Now that has a ring to it. Have fun with this thread.
c
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gotspin7
248 posts
Oct 14, 2007
5:44 AM
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3757, thanks for answering my question!
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3757
170 posts
Oct 14, 2007
8:40 AM
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Got Spin - Anytime! I have a question for you:What strain do you currently raise?
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gotspin7
256 posts
Oct 15, 2007
5:26 AM
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3757, my birds go back to Norm Reed thru Steve Smith, and Robert Parker. I have been working with this family since 1999.
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1717 posts
Oct 15, 2007
6:32 AM
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Let's see, Bill Pensom, what comes to my mind...VISIONARY, GREAT THINKER, INNOVATOR, PIONEER, RISK TAKER, PASSIONATE, ENTREPRENEUR, TARGET OF THE JEALOUS, GOSSIPERS AND NAYSAYERS...I could go on.
Everything we do or have accomplished with the Birmingham Roller is on the shoulders of W.H.Pensom.
The mere fact that we still talk about "Pensom" some 40 years after his passing is testament to his contribution to the roller fancy.
The term "PEDDLER" is unfair and meant to demean and put down, to minimize what he has done by those without the ability to understand and appreciate that if not for him, you would be raising the American Roller right now or probably not even have rollers at all.
Bill Pensom would have been a great poster on this site, who can deny?
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1718 posts
Oct 15, 2007
6:35 AM
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PS, Eric, I am not saying you are calling him a peddler, I do understand the context of your post. Thanks! :-)
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Last Edited by on Oct 15, 2007 6:35 AM
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3757
172 posts
Oct 15, 2007
6:36 AM
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Tony - Great post!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1719 posts
Oct 15, 2007
6:42 AM
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Thanks Ron. ;-)
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Last Edited by on Oct 15, 2007 7:11 AM
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pat66
26 posts
Oct 15, 2007
3:36 PM
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PENSOM BIRDS     
Last Edited by on Oct 15, 2007 3:37 PM
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nicksiders
2303 posts
Oct 15, 2007
3:43 PM
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If you fly Jacs your birds are Pensom based; if you fly Niebles your birds are Pensom based; if you fly Vaughns your birds are Pensom based; if you fly Contenentals your birds are Pensom based; if you fly Houghtons your birds are Pensom based; if you fly Norwoods your birds are Pensom based; if you fly J. Leroy Smiths your birds are Pensom based; if you fly Plonas your birds are Pensom based; if you fly Embertons your birds are Pensom based; if you fly Coopers your birds are pensom based; if you fly Navarros your birds are Pensom based; if you fly Lavins your birds are Pensom based; blah blah blah and so forth.
I guess your right, Pensom has no inpact on today's families of Birmingham Rollers.....so I am going to shut my mouth.
But, first.
Pull your head out of your asses; if you are in denial about the importance of Pensom and his continued importance even today,it makes you look silly and not credible.
Nick
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BigRiverRollerLofts
Last Edited by on Oct 15, 2007 4:24 PM
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SiDLoVE
78 posts
Oct 15, 2007
5:22 PM
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Heine Bijker birds Are they Pensom birds? ...
Pensom was visionary and knew quality of a roller and master in what he did.breeder,,developer,managment, inventor, salesperson,, etc.etc...
Monty Nieble used Pensom birds and was also visionary, inventor,developer to win 3 w/c the way he adjusted and bred them and knew how to build a team to work and win it . Heine is also a Visionary, developer in this time and understands it well considering his arent Pensom and continues to spank eveyone with his scores up to this date.He got his birds from others guys who fly rollers the same way pensom got birds from other guys who had rollers and had a plan and vision the way he wanted to develop a family of his own and set a standard like a software developer would do.or how a music producer would organize and have a goal and vision of a song ,,,effects..reverbs,,,,from sound that was invented already.... Pensom set a standard wrote books and bred good birds and left us to a great start in the U.S but where did pensom get his from? Its like a inventor of a idea not everyone has that vision or creative plan so that ONE person is the guy behind the plan . WHo is the next visonary,developer to take it further? Me , You, or Heine? The past history is Great now lets see what the future has in store!! Lets take it were we were left off from . The guys who invented the airplane. Look what we use now. State of the art stealth fighters jets. see you guys .. in the air.@@@@@@@
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classicpony
434 posts
Oct 15, 2007
5:34 PM
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Nick,
Is the Hardesty's Pensom based??
Jim
Illinois
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SAT Roller
53 posts
Oct 16, 2007
8:16 AM
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One thing I heard about Mr. Pensom was he could be at a strangers loft and go in and pick up the best bird he had even if he had never seen it fly.
I personally think Mr. Pensom was gifted and he tried to share his knowledge and promote rollers here in the US.
I'd have to say he did a pretty good job. He also never forgot about his homeland and where these great birds come from.
Richard
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birdman
398 posts
Oct 16, 2007
10:22 AM
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Nick, are you sure all those families aren't actually Bellfield based or Richards based?.....
Russ
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3757
175 posts
Oct 17, 2007
3:29 PM
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Sid Love - I would be willing to bet you the Heinz's birds go back to Ollie Harris or Bill Barrett! That would make them Bellfield and Richards base pigeons as Bill Pensom.
Nick - I would not consider the Continentals to be Pensom based. Simply because of the Fred Taylor background which were not Pensom. The other half of them is Plona but these are crosses. This does not negate the fact that they can or cannot spin.
Last Edited by on Oct 17, 2007 3:30 PM
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