elopez
29 posts
Oct 22, 2007
10:53 PM
|
Hello Everyone,
I was speaking with a good friend of mine and he stated that he overheard someone mentioning that they didn't care how a bird performed in the air, that if it didn't have the body/shape and look the way he thinks a roller should, it wouldn't make it into his loft. This person stated that in order for a roller to be a top performer it needs to have a certain body type to make it able to perform at its best.
I have always been told to stock on performance but should I also be looking at body type? What if a bird has a great look to it but isn’t performing? Please let me know what you all think.
Efren Lopez
|
RXR Loft
33 posts
Oct 22, 2007
11:33 PM
|
I say different strokes for different folks, it all depends on what that person is looking to accomplish.
I like performance and body style as equals. (I them deep & small)
Mix and match as you go. breeding pigeons is like a box of chocolates you never know what you are going to get.
----------
Rudy
RxR Loft
|
DeepSpinLofts
183 posts
Oct 23, 2007
2:14 AM
|
If the goal is to breed champion performers then you should look at the birds often while they are performing in the air.
....and
Only select "STOCK BIRDS" for breeding that look the best during aerial performance.
NOTE: This ideaology works for me.
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
Last Edited by on Oct 23, 2007 2:19 AM
|
gotspin7
302 posts
Oct 23, 2007
5:09 AM
|
Efren,I think that most of your best performers will have the look and the right body type, you will have some donkeys once in a while that will spin their buts of!
----------
Sal Ortiz
|
MILO
627 posts
Oct 23, 2007
7:24 AM
|
As a rule. Make your selections based on performance. If it is ugly, oh well. You will still have birds that roll. If you stock birds that are aesthetically pleasing alone, you will not have birds that role in great numbers. If you have both, then you are lucky. Pick them in the air and everything falls into place.
c
|
3757
178 posts
Oct 23, 2007
7:28 AM
|
The topic of judging rollers on the ground has always been one of difference of opinion ever since Bill Pensom wrote about the subject. As an Aerospace Engineer I know that aerodynamics plays an important part of objects in the air. If you have three pigeons that spin to the standard and two of them are genetically weak (Physically, not strong, etc) and one of them is a perfect apple body, strong muscle etc which bird are you going to use for your long term goals? If you continually bred those that are weak in structure you will end up with a family of pigeons that are genetically weak.
An individual should breed only those pigeons that spin to the standard and that have the physical characteristics to continue the breed. I believe first that individuals must know their family of birds. How could one have a breeding program without understand genetics and physical characteristics of a breed?
Dr. LD
Last Edited by on Oct 23, 2007 7:31 AM
|
Mongrel Lofts
405 posts
Oct 23, 2007
8:45 AM
|
An individual should breed only those pigeons that spin to the standard and that have the physical characteristics to continue the breed. I believe first that individuals must know their family of birds. How could one have a breeding program without understand genetics and physical characteristics of a breed?
Dr. LD
LD,
I can tell you right now what is being preached in many parts of the country to answer your question.. Just run around and collect up birds from many different family's and cross them up. Breed huge numbers and hope you hit on some hybrid vigor matings. Works like slot machine's! LOL Put another bird in from some where trying to cover up some fault and hoping for a JACK POT! LMAO Just an observasion after seeing the writings of many a roller man on these list.. KGB
|
elopez
30 posts
Oct 23, 2007
9:28 AM
|
I have found that most of top performers do have the right body type, but some don't look as good but spin their butts off.
I guess I'll pick from the air but if I have two equal ones I'll shoot for the one with the better body type.
I don't think I'll just stock on body type alone. I think it's just like saying every tall person will be good at basketball just because they're tall.
Efren Lopez
|
MILO
629 posts
Oct 23, 2007
9:31 AM
|
Dr. LD states, "An individual should breed only those pigeons that spin to the standard and that have the physical characteristics to continue the breed. I believe first that individuals must know their family of birds. How could one have a breeding program without understand genetics and physical characteristics of a breed?"
Absolutely! "Genetic and Physical characteristics" are not understood overnight. There IS NO formula. It just takes time and careful observation.
AS an example, I flew my FF qual this Sunday. I have three sisters in the group. At the end of the fly I was to put them away. All three are fast little birds and have the goods worthy of stock. I was 100% sold on two sisters. The third, and most physically appealing to me of the three had something that concerned me:
Her eye.
I know the eye.
I know THAT eye.
I have seen it time and time again. Can I describe it in this post? Not well most likely. BUT I KNOW THAT EYE!
So, having set this up, guess who came back at the end of the fly with a swollen head and wouldn't trap? LOL Yes indeed, the hen that left a question in my mind.
c
|
3757
179 posts
Oct 23, 2007
12:50 PM
|
Kenny - You are so correct. I have heard the same thing from some individuals and when I talk to them about what they want out of their birds the answer is "I want to win the world cup." This may be the reason why people do not want to work families anymore such as the Pensom strain etc and prefer hybrid vigor because it is the easy way out. Most people do not want to take the time to understand a particular line and just want to throw them in a cage a breed! But I often ask them where do you go once the highbred vigor comes along? Where do you take that bird? I guess I am from the old school but I will not comprimise my goals. Herb Sparkes and I discuss this issue all of the time. Kenny is there anyone that you know who goes after the standard first and foremost?
Thanks
Dr. LD
Last Edited by on Oct 23, 2007 2:33 PM
|
classicpony
470 posts
Oct 23, 2007
7:04 PM
|
With showing a car I have run into good judges,and bad judges, or a judge that was looking for the car that is the apple of his eye. Thats all part of the game, expect it, and when one comes to do his or her job you can bet you will get one of three, make the best of it. From what I've seen so far the NBRC judges seem to be better then most. I have hear very few complains about them.
Jim
Illinois
|
broadwaystar
7 posts
Oct 23, 2007
8:11 PM
|
one thing ive found out over the last 7 years is that every one has there own oppion of what the perfect bird should feel like and roll like i do both sides of this game i fly in my club every year every event,world cup,fall fly,local fly also ive qualified in the fallfly,ive judged both several times also show at local show and have done very well, my thophy room proves that alot of times ill ask a flyer to feel his best spinning bird to see if they all feel the same they dont,as a matter of fact i personaly know a few people that has a family of birds that they fly and another one that the show that have judged local shows a will tell people that this is the way a bird is supposed to feel like and know they dont have that garbage in there kit so i belive every flyer has to do his or her own home work and pick according to what rolls at your house becuse when there in there in the air and roll the lights out the score sheet doesnt say curved keel or straight keel all it says is who has the most points
|
nicksiders
2361 posts
Oct 24, 2007
2:18 PM
|
Performance; it is a perfornce breed and if I was in the pigeon hobby for another reason I would not have a performance breed.
----------
dSNICKERS Rollers
Last Edited by on Oct 25, 2007 8:47 AM
|
lionel
2 posts
Oct 24, 2007
10:03 PM
|
Dr. LD I’m a bit of a rookie when it comes to the rollers I met you a few months ago with my friend Spankey if a breeder breeds for the strong muscle and perfect apple body would you say that after a few generations you might encounter birds that fly to High or dot out? I have a few Scott birds and a certain person said that they grow to strong and fly to high.
|
CSRA
333 posts
Oct 25, 2007
1:47 AM
|
For it to have any use to me it has to have the right type on the ground 1st then 2nd it has to spin right in the air
by having the type it should spin right the type is 1st for me and that has to be chosen on the ground and that works for me
|
bman
461 posts
Oct 25, 2007
3:59 AM
|
Form follows function.........in other words if it does everything correct in the air the form will take care of itself.IMO......No one has mentioned what I have heard called the "motor" or in hunting dogs what I call heart or drive. The willingness/ability to perform regardless of conditions.....every time to give 110%.....thats what I want to see.
----------
Ron
Borderline lofts
|
gotspin7
316 posts
Oct 25, 2007
4:51 AM
|
List, it is all about percentages! how many good birds have the right type that roll right versus how many dont have the right type that roll right!
----------
Sal Ortiz
|
Ballrollers
920 posts
Oct 25, 2007
8:32 AM
|
Guys,
I want, very badly to believe that a relationship exists between type and performance, but the reality of the experience of most roller men is that quality performance comes from a variety of different types. Esthetically, we choose a particular type that we BELIEVE will enhance performance, but the the proof is lacking. At this year's NBRC Convention Lawn Show, the birds judged best type (Best Cock and Best Hen)were in the bottom 25 % of the performers in the Futurity Kit. Also interesting was the fact that not one member selected the Best Performer from the show cage, as it was later judged in the air by a panel of judges composed of Scott Campbell, Randy Gibson, and Brent Marindale. So much for our ability to establish relationship between type and performance!
YITS,
Cliff
|
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1796 posts
Oct 25, 2007
11:00 AM
|
Cliff Said:
"At this year's NBRC Convention Lawn Show, the birds judged best type (Best Cock and Best Hen)were in the bottom 25 % of the performers in the Futurity Kit."
So Cliff, by using this example and then following it to its logical conclusion, birds with "right type" are junk! LOL I think you would get some argument with that. ;-)
Cliff also said:
"Also interesting was the fact that not one member selected the Best Performer from the show cage, as it was later judged in the air by a panel of judges composed of Scott Campbell, Randy Gibson, and Brent Marindale."
Cliff, with this statement are you saying that these three judges at this event decided for everyone else that "type" plays no role in the performance capabilities in a specific family of rollers?
Without trying to sound disrespectful, I think, being human, they will see what they want. I think what is really interesting is that I was informed from a reliable source who will remain nameless, that he was at a fly were one of these judges, did not count breaks that were clearly breaks by definition of the rules at another fly!
So while I appreciate that judges are an under appreciated breed, they are still influenced by their own biases and prejudices and interpretation in spite of the rules.
Before I reach the conclusion you did with this anecdotal example (I am sure, those with the opposite view could come up with an anecdotal story to support their conclusion as well), I would have to see the study/s that demonstrate this, and there are none. :-(
I believe the true Birmingham Roller is the sum total balance of all its parts, not merely one featured and prized trait.
----------
FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Last Edited by on Oct 25, 2007 11:02 AM
|
3757
184 posts
Oct 25, 2007
11:27 AM
|
Tony - Great response.
Lionel - Give me a call!
|
sleepy1.don
34 posts
Oct 25, 2007
1:20 PM
|
Well heres my thoughts.if I had to start over and obtained two pair I would not fly them out. But breed them out swiching mattings half way through the breeding season and fly the offspring hard then pick the best from the air. then i would mate them back to thir perents.mother to son father to daughter.them fly out the offsping pick the best from them. mate back to the perents agian. type should present its self on its own. if you breed for performance alone. keepem spinin Don
|
MILO
643 posts
Oct 25, 2007
6:57 PM
|
Had to bring this back to the top. I think we have another winner here...LOL
Cliff, what do you think?
c
|
Ballrollers
925 posts
Oct 26, 2007
9:37 PM
|
Tony, Guys,
Just because the bird that was judged as best type (which happened to be a bird that I raised) and it happened not to be in the top performers....I don't think we can make the quantum leap to the "logical conclusion" that birds with the right type are junk. That was not my meaning, by any stretch. But as Kenny posted in the separate thread on this topic, type is in the eye and hand of the beholder. I don't believe that a clear association between the two has yet been established. As any experienced roller man will tell you, great performers come in all types. That's the more salient point to be made.....and that maybe we put too much emphasis on type alone. I happened to love that little cock and I put him in the Futurity Kit because I figured he might win the Best Cock Trophy. But he's 10-footer.....dime a dozen in my lofts. I gave him away, afterwards! LOL! That shows you how much stock I put in type alone!
Let me clarify my second statement. We had a competition where the members tried to pick the bird by type from the Futurity Kit on display in show cages that would be judged as "Best Performer" when the kit was flown. None of the NBRC members in attendance at the convention, selected the bird, a yearling dun bar hen, that the judges (and me, personally, as well) selected as the best performer. She was frequent, very fast, and 30-40 feet with excellent speed. I actually saw this bird shrink in her spin when I was training the Futurity Kit, so I had a lot of experince with seeing this bird fly over the summer. The point is that our association as roller men between type and performance didn't pan out in this blind test. And I suggest that we probably could repeat this many times. I hope they do it again next year!
So,no, Tony, these guys DID NOT decide for everyone that type plays no role in performance. That's not the way it played out. They weren't counting breaks etc. They only had to pick the best performer. These three guys know performance when they see it. That's beyond any doubt, in my mind. (There was a close runner up, however, with much the same style, depth, but not quite as frequent.)
I think the limited information that I gave you may have led you to the wrong conclusion. Make more sense, now?
YITS,
Cliff
Last Edited by on Oct 26, 2007 9:54 PM
|
Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1817 posts
Oct 27, 2007
6:20 AM
|
Hey Cliff, ahhhh well..., LOL Well, that your post followed the theme of the thread and seemed to be taking another position on the value of type and you mentioned that the "type" birds placed in the bottom 25% of performance contest, I think it was not a quantum leap in logical thinking, more like the next step. LOL
As for placing too much emphasis on "type", it is but one primary trait to consider along with others. To quote me from another thread regarding type:
"...my view is that a bird from my family demonstrating proper "type" can better apply all its energy to turning up the velocity and "snap, crackle, pop" into and out of the spin, not have to exert and waste energy to overcome a physical imbalance.
The goal in my view is the application of effort applied to the spin by a roller of proper type versus the roller that also has to overcome his physical shortcomings.
The fact the it can is testament to the mental and physical strength of the "breed" handed down to us by our forbears.
And even though it can overcome it's physical imbalance, it is no excuse to not breed for proper type. The answer is to raise the bar in our breeding programs so that we may give the next generation that follows what we have been given." End Quote
Cliff, debate tactics like: "...As any experienced roller man will tell you..." isn't going to work with me. LOL
It does not invalidate what I said in my quote above. Here it is again:
And even though it can overcome it's physical imbalance, it is no excuse to not breed for proper type.
The answer is to raise the bar in our breeding programs so that we may give the next generation that follows what we have been given." End Quote
Another quote by me I want to mention:
"I believe the true Birmingham Roller is the sum total balance of all its parts, not merely one featured and prized trait"
=====
As for the performance of that futurity kit; I shared emails with one of the judges at that event, regarding this thread, and I did learn that the whole set of circumstances surrounding that fly were not mentioned in your post.
The futurity kit did not want to lift, and it was extremely hard to judge a kit when all they wanted to do was land...in addition, did the best bird win? I was told it is difficult to say when they are only flying at 40'?
Does a good bird turn it loose at 40'? Not the ones I want to keep! LOL Anyway, I am also told by the judge that 2 of the birds in the running were not off type.
This is what one of the judges who was there judging told me. I feel like I have a more balanced and complete picture of that fly.
So really nothing was determined at that fly regarding type whatsoever. Thanks Cliff for discussing this. You can certainly get me thinking and churning over my mine and others views and opinions! lol
----------
FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
|
Velo99
1367 posts
Oct 27, 2007
6:47 AM
|
Type does(should) play a major role in the perfomance and breeding selection in the BR. Now exactly what the type is might be a rather fluid interpretation. I do believe it might vary some from loft to loft. Most of the traits discussed are veeery similar and the differences are not enought to get all that excited about but still enough to set an individual "family" type and make a difference in performance.
An easy analogy is this. In a gymnastic floor exercise, you want one of those willowy little girls that can bend herself like a pretzel. Defensive linemen are just frikking human monsters,6`6`` 300 pounders. Slap a body suit on Jevon Kearse put him on a mat and watch him tumble. Now that would be some kinda funny.
Point is if you want your birds to roll they have to have the right type for rollers. You just can`t pin the tail on the pigeon and say "this is a roller".The specifics are what we selectively breed for but the basics are what make the breed. No one has said EXACTLY what the type is. It is a broad interpretation. Its easier to say what it isn`t rather than what it is.
What works for each individiual in his program is what the type is for each program. Put em up, handle them after,and you`ll see several types very similar in performance.
yits
----------
V99
Flippin`The Bird!
http://www.bluedotloft.50megs.com
|
RUDY..ZUPPPPP
332 posts
Oct 27, 2007
7:32 AM
|
zupppppppppp kenny.
Jevon Kearse...lol
The Freak.lol
thats one hell of an example.dont get me wrong im a phili fan.
|
elopez
123 posts
Dec 04, 2007
12:56 AM
|
Bringing this back. Looks or performance?
----------
Efren Lopez
SGVS
|
PR_rollers
184 posts
Dec 04, 2007
5:33 AM
|
performance is first for me.. than looks on the ground ..if there are four that roll well out of that four i want the bird with the right body type first.performance first why because i will not look at a bird on the ground and say he has more muscle and the right body type i will keep that one to breed ,No, you will would send that bird up to do what it was born to do is that is roll with quality a spinning ball.. ,it better have that gene roll or heart to do what it suppose to do or he ain't worth a damn dime to me...
----------
Ralph....
Last Edited by on Dec 04, 2007 5:34 AM
|
J_Star
1383 posts
Dec 04, 2007
7:29 AM
|
Well, if you have a family that is inbred and enjoy a close relationship, then traits such as style, type, character or looks should not be an issue since the strain was developed utilizing the 5 primary traits we look for. All my birds look the same and behave the same in every way and lots of fanciers family of birds are the same. The only variable that is left is performance which comes in many different levels. Therefore, selecting the best performer out of the bunch would be the thing to consider if you have a well inbred family. If you have many families within your loft, then you have to match the pairs before mating them utilizing all the primary traits for best balance offsprings.
Jay
Last Edited by on Dec 04, 2007 7:30 AM
|
Mount Airy Lofts
303 posts
Dec 04, 2007
12:41 PM
|
EL,
If performance is what you are after then pick from the air. If show is what you are after then pick on the ground. If you want both, try a dual purpose family. Some times, we just need to keep it simple.
Thor
|