Santandercol
1565 posts
Oct 23, 2007
6:26 PM
|
Damn good question,Milo.Don't know why there hasn't been more responses.I have zip for experience on this but I'll tell ya what I'ma gonna do.When I first got Rollers,a bud gave me 2 pairs of decent birds 3 Monty birds and one hen that is 1/2 Monty-1/2 Barrett.The young off the pair with the Barrett blood hen has produced some real deep(60-80ft) spinners some of 'em good kitbirds but deep fast and breaking out of it clean.I'm real curious what the father mated back to the best daughter will produce but I do want to get them back to the Monty blood being stronger to hopwefully come up with a more stable strain that what the Barrett blood has brought in.Man,it's well past rum-thirty here so don't know if I've made any sense atall.
----------
Kelly
|
spitfire loft
1 post
Oct 23, 2007
7:19 PM
|
I agree with you, the problem with mixing is established familys perform differently based on care, Montys have to be broken down more than other birds for instance, and different familys require different methods, some respond well to a yoyo feeding system and so on, get good foundation stock and go with line breeding...
|
3757
180 posts
Oct 23, 2007
9:22 PM
|
Milo - It is good that you started this thread and the point that you stressed is a good one. A person should have a real good reason to cross and understand the reason. The individual should know that the cross may or may not work with whatever they are using the bird for. It could also create some undesired faults later on.
Also, many individuals do not understand that you can create a family within a family. I did this with the birds I have from Bruce Cooper. Even though all of the birds originated off of one cock when Bruce created the family I have 4 different families within the one. I can cross within my own line and need not go out. It takes years to understand a family and they can be ruined if the selection is not done properly. If you keep adding birds from here and there you will never really know what is in the birds!
Last Edited by on Oct 23, 2007 9:24 PM
|
diamondrollers
96 posts
Oct 23, 2007
10:42 PM
|
good stuff guys i resently crossed a joe urbon cock with a kenny billings hen but i have 14 pair of pure billing birds going the way you feed each family is diffrent. joes birds could get feed 14% no pop corn all the time and kennys got to be played with . I will try breeding the young back each way and see what traits stay with the birds i hope on kennys side will be the way joes birds are feed and on joes side the crazy depth kennys birds throw out but even though i tryed this cross i will continue to always have my pure kgbs as my main family unless out of the cross iam working on i can make somthing better but that could take a lot of time so i belive that if your going to cross anything you better i mean better always keep your main line pure so you never lose it
sal (diamondrollers)
Last Edited by on Oct 23, 2007 10:46 PM
|
gotspin7
310 posts
Oct 24, 2007
5:06 AM
|
Milo, this is a great thread, you have people always trying to re-invent the wheel! I made the mistake myself years ago, in 99' I was working with two families and decided to cross them, I had success the first year but the second year went flat on me! I got so frustated that I got rid of both families and now I am working with just one! They are easier to manage since they all tend to act the same to the feed can and fly patterns! 3757 I agree with what you spoke of! you can make your own sub families within the family!
----------
Sal Ortiz
|
J_Star
1207 posts
Oct 24, 2007
5:25 AM
|
What difference does it make? When you get birds from a well known breeder X which his birds are devoid of faults thru years of selection and then get birds from a well known breeder Y which his birds are devoid of faults thru years of selection, don’t you think that when you breed X and Y’s birds together, you will get XY generation still devoid of faults?
You have one family of birds for years and with all that proper selection, you still get the roll downs and the stiffs along with the good and the outstanding. Some say…well look at the percentage of good vs. bad…I say show me the honest to goodness numbers so I can believe you.
Maybe I am missing something!! I personally understand what you are saying but the argument and/or the basis of your argument, you are claming, is not convincing to why or why not.
Jay
|
3757
181 posts
Oct 24, 2007
6:51 AM
|
Jay - This is a continuation from another thread. Here is Kenny B original statement:
"LD,
I can tell you right now what is being preached in many parts of the country to answer your question.. Just run around and collect up birds from many different family's and cross them up. Breed huge numbers and hope you hit on some hybrid vigor matings. Works like slot machine's! LOL Put another bird in from some where trying to cover up some fault and hoping for a JACK POT! LMAO Just an observasion after seeing the writings of many a roller man on these list.. KGB"
I believe Milo's thread is to discuss with individuals about keeping only hybrid vigor crosses or eventually establishing a family. Individuals will not know the birds if they continue with hybrid crosses for no reasons at all. The original thread spoke about type and the thread change slightly to breeding and understanding a family or do individuals prefer hybrid crosses without ever creating a family/strain to understand them.
Last Edited by on Oct 24, 2007 7:18 AM
|
bman
440 posts
Oct 24, 2007
7:13 AM
|
"hybrid vigor" used in the context being used here......
has been utilized to create almost every breed/strain of cow,horse,dog.chicken etc. in the world.The cattle industry alone has created dozens of breeds this way.
The problem lies in most people do not have the expertise/knowledge to capture and reproduce what they created in the F1 generation.
----------
Ron
Borderline lofts
|
3757
182 posts
Oct 24, 2007
7:22 AM
|
Ron - You are correct! I also believe that most people do not even know what we are talking about and this is the reason this discussion should happen. Great point Ron! I must also add that these once hybrid vigors are now a purebred due to selection as Ron pointed out.
Last Edited by on Oct 24, 2007 7:24 AM
|
J_Star
1208 posts
Oct 24, 2007
8:43 AM
|
Your point is well taken and thanks for the clarification.
Any way, my take on this is that I believe there is a big difference between a fancier that collects birds from all over the board hoping for that elusive vigor than a fancier who only collects the outstanding birds from only outstanding fanciers to melt them together and try to establish a family made from birds that are best of their class and to move his family forward to the next level. This type of fanciers usually are well known among the roller hobby and enjoy the friendship of allot of the well known in this hobby to be able to do that. For those ones that don’t have that privilege, it is best to stick to one family and work from there.
The second fancier I mentioned above usually brings in a bird or two from certain well known fanciers to advance his family for things that he thinks are lacking such as depth or speed. Or simply to blend them in, knowing that they all have something in common in the gene pool to start his own well deserving family of rollers. This type of fanciers usually been in the hobby for a long time and know their birds and their friends birds in and out to be able to pull it off with good results. It is not for new comers.
Jay
|
3757
183 posts
Oct 24, 2007
8:48 AM
|
Jay - Thanks and your points are well taking.
Dr. LD
|
rollerman132
140 posts
Oct 24, 2007
8:56 AM
|
What are we talking about here continuously crossing new birds into an established family, or using more then one source to creating a family? If it’s to create a family, two or three different sources are more then enough. Most of the families out there were created from more then one source. If it’s the other, you should have started with a better family.
|
bman
441 posts
Oct 24, 2007
8:58 AM
|
Jay, I agree with you BUT the hidden pitfall is that many crosses are a blind alley that will result in a dead end in the second or third generation. The same holds true in a tightly bred family. If you are not vigilant in your breeder selection you will experience what is known as a "breeding depression". Inbreeding and line breeding for the sake of having a "tight" family will cause as many problems as an outcross. If you put your focus on adding a specific trait alot of people have the tendency to ignore the whole package. If I may give an example,many breeds of bird dogs have been bred for the field trial cicuit.They want a dog to run big at the expense of all else. The result is many of these dogs have to be force broke to retreive a bird which was a natural trait that was ignored.
----------
Ron
Borderline lofts
Last Edited by on Oct 24, 2007 9:01 AM
|
J_Star
1210 posts
Oct 24, 2007
9:04 AM
|
I agree with you. That is why I said this method is not for new fanciers, rather, for the knowledgeable fanciers who been at it for a long time.
Also, to get back to Milo’s post, I don’t think you will find people admitting to this practice. Just me thinking out loud…
Jay
|
Velo99
1363 posts
Oct 24, 2007
3:04 PM
|
The thing is selection. Some guys start off with one or two good families and do well with them. Other guys like me didn`t or don`t have the opportunity or the money to get first class stock to start with so they shop.
I have used a shotgun approach I guess. I was blessed with a bunch of breeders last season,I had 8 lines. I had enough to make a start, all of name brand families. I handled them, paired them as best I could. I bred from 8 pairs last season. Took the four best producers mixed em up and bred them this season. Next year I am going with the best two. I will probably keep the same pairings because I have offspring that I can put back on the final pair. I should have three generations from the No.1 pair when I finally pick them. This will allow me to have 3-4 year old birds from these pairs to assess for the breeder loft. I never thought it would really take this long. Billings and Jay both told me at least five years minimum. Gonna be right on the money it looks like.
There are several actions that will result from "The Pick". One is a huge cull,ridding my program of all unrelated lines and birds. Thats gonna hurt :( ,but its a neccessary evil.
From there I will get back to the numbers I want from within this line of birds. I should have enough birds in the kitbox that are immediate family to make a go of it. Am pondering keeping the No.2 pair in the foster loft as a backup. From there I do believe it will amount to more of the same as what I have been doing,just with one familiy of birds. Breed em fly em breed em fly em breed em fly em.
Some of us still have some work to do to get to the point of having any actual experience on this level of the subject. I feel I have a grasp of the theory.
----------
V99
Flippin`The Bird!
http://www.bluedotloft.50megs.com
|
birdman
409 posts
Oct 24, 2007
4:06 PM
|
Paul, that was a great post!
Russ
|
bman
448 posts
Oct 24, 2007
5:58 PM
|
Paul.good post..........but a mule is a perfect example of hybrid vigor.And breeding depresion is the result of continued inbreeding in an isolated group(same family) producing among other things lack of fertility.As you stated when you cross a donkey with a horse you get a mule which is superior to both parents as a draft animal THAT is HYBRID VIGOR. What they are really talking about as you said is an outcross which is a tool used in all facets of animal husbandry.
----------
Ron
Borderline lofts
Last Edited by on Oct 24, 2007 6:00 PM
|
bman
449 posts
Oct 24, 2007
6:03 PM
|
Milo, the melting pot you described is nothing more than a crap shoot by continually crossing in new blood.At best I beleive the percentages would be very low.But if you took the best offspring and crossed babk to parent or grandparents you MIGHT see more consistent results.
----------
Ron
Borderline lofts
|
nicksiders
2363 posts
Oct 24, 2007
6:12 PM
|
Paul,
I enjoyed the post....I think it is a re-read of yours(LOL).
Paul, you used the word "myth" appropiatly. I used to believed in that myth, as you probably remember. I still try to function within the confines of the myth because I am stubborn and a little slow. Remember, my third grade teacher told my mother that I was slow, but not retarded.
Families; strains; what does that actually say. My comglomeration of shit don't look or perform much different than other peoples conglomerations; thier strain or family.
It all gets complicated, sometimes in our minds. How often do you make changes evan within the family you have? How many breeders because they insist in tight breeding produce web feet and half ass feathering? What do they do to correct that problem? I think they reach out and find something to melt in the pot to correct it. They usually do this in back somewhere out of site; not wanting to be shamed or something that they have told themselves would happen if someone found out(LOL).
Nick
----------
dSNICKERS Rollers
Last Edited by on Oct 24, 2007 6:19 PM
|
bman
450 posts
Oct 24, 2007
6:22 PM
|
Milo,best to best in the melting pot would work "eventually" LOL....the problem arises that starting with such a large gene pool makes that a long road.Too many variables too be weeded out.With a well bred family some one else has weeded out alot of the undesirable traits. Let's face it all todays great familys came out of a melting pot at some point........I just don't want to wait that long.
----------
Ron
Borderline lofts
|
bman
451 posts
Oct 24, 2007
6:31 PM
|
Milo,let me play the devil's advocate and pose a question to you. Everyone is a proponet of the "tight bred family"
but when you read alot of posts everyone is crossing this family to another. I would take a wild a$$ gues and say 80% of the folks posting here have more than one family and have experimented with crossing them.So if the tight bred family is the only true path why is everyone taking detours.lol
----------
Ron
Borderline lofts
|
diamondrollers
97 posts
Oct 24, 2007
6:35 PM
|
hey b
your off the hook man
|
fhtfire
1151 posts
Oct 24, 2007
6:39 PM
|
Just because you have a lot of different genes...does not mean that the road will be longer. It is all based on how quick you get those dominant genes to shine through.
Think about it....you can have a lot of families a whole melting pot.....you could shot gun blast it like a lot of people do...and you may get your gold nuggets in the first generation. You could find just the right mix and start you family that quick of you have a couple birds that do it AND have the dominate gene. It is a game of luck just like when you breed tighter families with new pairs.
You can say well the odds are better to have good offspring from a tight family...but who really knows....you could also produce a couple of birds that are REAL dominate in just a few generations and they may produce better % then the tight knit family. You are talking "LOTS if genes with a million different formulas you can make.
I think it all has to do with the dominate genes in a certain family that pass it on. For example...Morts bird are all over the board in different color patterns.(not rare colors..LOL)....where Tony's birds are more red and lavender...well in the first generation of my crosses...Most of the birds looked like Ruby Roller color patterns..LOts of lavenders and mealy bars.....Those genes are dominate compared to Morts genes...so the color came through in one round...those same genes could be the roll genes too.
I have pairs that are of three different families and they produce some of my best birds and they are second generation crosses,,,IT is more so the managers eye for good birds and a whole lot of luck!!
|
bman
453 posts
Oct 24, 2007
6:40 PM
|
diamond.........naw just love a debate
----------
Ron
Borderline lofts
|
diamondrollers
99 posts
Oct 24, 2007
6:42 PM
|
this topic looks to be a long one lol i think its ok maybe to have one or two families but mor then that is asking for trouble
|
fhtfire
1152 posts
Oct 24, 2007
6:44 PM
|
I don't think that tight families are the TRUE path...I think they are one of many paths to take...some are smooth paths and some are rugged...the path you take could be based on experience, lack of money or lots of money for birds, knowing the right people...and just plane trying something different and seeing if it works...those are visionaries...you know the ones that tried to fly...LOL...Now we fly all over!!
rock and ROLL
Paul
|
bman
458 posts
Oct 24, 2007
6:52 PM
|
Qoute"IT is more so the managers eye for good birds and a whole lot of luck!! " Paul you as usual hit the nail square on the head with that one.
----------
Ron
Borderline lofts
|
diamondrollers
101 posts
Oct 24, 2007
6:55 PM
|
hey paul
i cant agree with you for exsample joe urbon wins your guys region alot and he only flys his tight family year after year so to me it show a greater chance of winning dealing with a tighter family verses a bunch of them
sal (diamond)
|
fhtfire
1153 posts
Oct 24, 2007
7:49 PM
|
I am not saying that one way is better then the other. You are right about Joe Urbons Family. He took that path and it has worked for him....I was saying that it can be done the other way with success too. Remember...I did not say people buying birds all the time and mixing different strains is going to work...only enough strains to keep your arms wrapped around them...two many strains and you can't go in any direction...it would be like ...a compass spinning and you don't know which way to go.....that will not work.....But having enough to manage and weeding through them to develop your own family will work too.
It goes both ways...I have seen crossed birds win comps and I have seen cross birds do nothing....I have also seen the Tight families take a crap too.
Management is where it is at.
rock and ROLL
Paul
|
diamondrollers
102 posts
Oct 24, 2007
8:19 PM
|
paul its not that it wont work but a tight family got a better chance of winning it my opinion
sal (diamond)
|
Velo99
1365 posts
Oct 24, 2007
8:21 PM
|
For the most part the guys that win consistently have bred their birds to the point of having superior percentages. Therefore better birds to work with,your standards go up and before long you have a heads up on the competetion.
I would also hazard a guess these guys have been working with these family(s) a long time. You find what work for you and your birds.
Some guys get it sooner and have quicker results some guys have to work a little longer and a little harder to maybe acheive the same results. There ain`t no magic pill. Ya gotta breed and fly and breed and fly and breed and fly....
Then you have to learn the exceptions.
----------
V99
Flippin`The Bird!
http://www.bluedotloft.50megs.com
Last Edited by on Oct 24, 2007 8:24 PM
|