nicksiders
2375 posts
Oct 29, 2007
11:51 AM
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Many of us think we know all the tricks about feeding your kit birds in preparation for a performance day or competition.
Some use straight wheat all of the time; just start feeding down until the performance day. Others will use a wheat and milo mixture and do the same. Others contiue using a mixture of several grains and start feeding them down (lesser and lesser amounts) until performance day or comp. day.
I have often heard of the various ways; what I am after here is to hear from those flyers who have used all of these ways mentioned and tell us if there is a difference in the results after using the different feed.
OR,,,,you can say anything you want about feeding to performorm or compete. I don't care(LOL).
Nick
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dSNICKERS Rollers
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J_Star
1218 posts
Oct 29, 2007
11:56 AM
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Nick,
Can we say how we compete with ourselves in the back yard and to trigger the birds to perform their best? Or does it have to be a competitor who pays his $35 fee?
Jay
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Electric-man
748 posts
Oct 29, 2007
1:26 PM
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Lay it on us Jay!!! LOL
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Val
"Site Moderator"
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nicksiders
2376 posts
Oct 29, 2007
2:38 PM
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Jay,
It doesn't have to be a competiter. I want to know how you feed to get the best performance out of your birds.
Nick
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dSNICKERS Rollers
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Skylineloft
275 posts
Oct 29, 2007
4:02 PM
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Nick,
For me I have always fed my birds according to what they are doing before a fly. If there flying to high, I will cut the feed just a hair, to low, I will feed them up. The family of birds I work with need allot of feed so I try not to mess with it, but just get them in shape for there big day. I feed a 12% mix, thats it. I like my birds to have meat on there bones and try to keep them flying 45 min to 1 1/2 hrs. This year I stopped pulling the water before fly day. They seemed to fly to low for me when I did. As always, Im still learning and learned allot my first year back. Being out of the hobby for so many years it was like learning all over again. I seemed to make all the rookie mistakes, Just to name a few, overfeed, underfeed, fly in fog, overfly, loosing to many young birds homing them in, etc, etc, etc. I feel I have allot to learn and that it will take me years before IM satisfied with what I know about these great birds.
Your Friend,
Ray
Last Edited by on Oct 29, 2007 4:07 PM
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hardtimekenl2
76 posts
Oct 29, 2007
4:59 PM
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skyline what all you said that is me to we have a lot to lern, what kind of rollers do you have .what blood line?
Last Edited by on Oct 29, 2007 5:00 PM
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Skylineloft
278 posts
Oct 29, 2007
6:51 PM
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hardtimekenl2,
I Have birds from Johnny Smith.
Ray
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J_Star
1220 posts
Oct 30, 2007
7:24 AM
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Nick,
When people are preparing their kit for competition they follow the basics as they were told but never have taken into account several variables that would affect the kit negatively. One of the variables is that people who prepped their kit fail to tell you the full scope of how exactly they prepped their kit. What you hear is that I practiced the yo-yo system feeding them this and that. When some one follow this practice, they sadly find out that their birds, on many occasions, act in several ways such as don’t fly the 20 min and DQ or the birds just shut down after 5 to 10 min and go around in circle. Some might find that their birds fly out of sight and become unscoreble. The time of year and the weather climate plays a big roll into how the birds act and behave when you open the door.
Each one of these cases can be remedied and corrected but the issue is to find out or suspect it way before you open the door at comp day.
When your birds don’t do the 20 min, is most likely due to some birds in the kit, if not all, lack the stamina and effected negatively by your feeding ration which tends to keep the birds in a broken down condition. Face it, you simply failed to bring their energy level up to sustain equilibrium between stamina and their mental awareness. I hear allot of DQs happen in comp days.
What I found is that allot of competing folks tend to forget or find it least important to practice rule number one which is to gradually brake down the birds to a point which I call “Ground Zero” to be able to bring them all back to equilibrium as I explained above. If you find my analysis is worthy of continuing then I will go on, otherwise, I will shut up.
Jay
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Electric-man
757 posts
Oct 30, 2007
5:25 PM
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Don't stop now, Jay! It was just gittin good!
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Val
"Site Moderator"
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Ballrollers
928 posts
Oct 30, 2007
5:42 PM
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Jay, Guys, Gals (?),
Great post, Jay, especially in view of our national championship that is in progress, and with all the competitors dealing with exactly this issue. I think our Southeast Regionals, that were just completed, were a perfect example of what you are saying. Personally,I use a modified yo-yo system that Guil Rand, published in the Roller Journal, as I posted on another thread, here, so I won't bore you with the details, again. I posted a 485 and then my friend Charlie Stack posted a 1029, taking the 1-2 positions as we did in the Spring World Cup qualifiers. Joe Bob, flying a kit of young birds after loosing is old bird competition kit in an overfly, tried to tweak his birds for everything he could get out of them and went to 50-50 wheat milo. (They were trained all summer on straight wheat.) He said that he figured that the rising air in the high pressure that had just moved in overnight, following a week of rain, would keep the birds up, and he wanted to avoid them skying out, which they are prone to do. The change in feed, plus a 35 degree drop in the temps, resulted in his kit flying 13 minutes and landing early. Handling the birds, afterwards, we found several were extremely light. Joe Bob kicked himself, because he knew he had pushed his kit too hard, and they couldn't handle it. They didn't have the stamina, where an old bird kit might have been fine. I know that he wouldn't mind my telling you, as a learning experience for all. I like the feeding system that I am using because the birds are not "broken down". They are fit, muscular, lean, and you have them on edge on fly day. I compensate a little on amount, based on the weather, but not signifcantly.
YITS,
Cliff
Last Edited by on Oct 30, 2007 5:49 PM
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bigwilly
23 posts
Oct 30, 2007
10:42 PM
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Does anyone have any Paul Gomez birds of Los Angeles? If so, How are the doing?
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J_Star
1221 posts
Oct 31, 2007
8:17 AM
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Well, let’s start with breaking down the birds because I believe it is one of the most important steps to prep the birds.
For me, to break down the birds is to feed them either Wheat/Mile or Wheat alone but every day you take out a heaping table spoon of feed. That means, one day, for 20 birds, you feed 2 measuring cups, the next it is two measuring cups minus a table spoon, the following day it is two measuring cups minus two table spoons and so on until your birds will beg you for feed. When you shake the feed can, they will want to land immediately and once landed and you keep shaking the feed can, they will hover around you, like bees on honey, no matter where you go in the backyard. That is the power of feeding and you , at that time, got their attention.
To tell that the birds are broken down is when the birds will only want to fly for 10 min or less and they won’t go way above the tree tops. Also some of the birds will bump upon release, which normally don’t do….That is “Ground Zero”.
Once that is established, they are ripe to being built back up within three days to be ready for the day to open the door for comp day.
In my next post I will talk about the preparation for the kit, but right now I gotta go to a meeting. Later.
Jay
Last Edited by on Nov 03, 2007 7:03 PM
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nicksiders
2388 posts
Oct 31, 2007
12:27 PM
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One final thought about feeding for performance.
Is it WHAT you feed them? Is it HOW MUCH you feed them? Which one is the more important; the "how much" or the "what"?
Make it simple guys and to the point....no "buts" and "yeow buts".
Nick
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SNICKER Rollers
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Skylineloft
288 posts
Oct 31, 2007
12:42 PM
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Nick,
You asked,
Is it WHAT you feed them? Is it HOW MUCH you feed them? Which one is the more important.
I think its a tie.
Thats as simple as it gets for a answer.
Ray
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MILO
664 posts
Oct 31, 2007
12:48 PM
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Is it WHAT you feed them? Is it HOW MUCH you feed them? Which one is the more important.
Those are very important yes. I think there is one more part. WHEN you feed them. Does anyone think there is any importance on the time of feeding? I think there is.
c
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Skylineloft
289 posts
Oct 31, 2007
1:07 PM
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Milo,
You bet. when prepping a team, I always try to fly & feed the birds around the same time I think they will be flown when the Judge comes.
Ray
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quickspin
13 posts
Oct 31, 2007
1:21 PM
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Like MILO said, It all matters and you have to know the consequences of each one.
What you feed them: Let's said only feeding them pure corn, how are they going to be and the effects on performing also.
How much you feed them. 3 TBS per bird 3 times a day. they are going to be some big birds that only want to be in the pole or in the wire.
When time: After 6:00 pm this will affect the next day because they are going to be full. Will not want to go in when you call them in.
I don't do this for any one that might think. Just a scenario
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Skylineloft
290 posts
Oct 31, 2007
1:21 PM
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One more thing,
There is nothing that will replace putting the time into your birds.
The person that knows his birds the best, (the guy that is in his back yard watching his birds every move, from release to trapping) is the guy that understands what his birds need the best. He is also the guy that seems to do well in comp fly's overall. Not too many weekend flyers do well with there birds, it does not matter where he bought his birds from.
Ray
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nicksiders
2390 posts
Oct 31, 2007
1:42 PM
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WHEN is a key issue. Do you always have food for them when they return from a fly or do you feed at a certian time?
I once thought I had to have feed upon thier return; I am rethinking it and I am going to feed them same time everyday.....my schedule will be to fly in the AM and feed in the PM until I see failures arrise from it or a negetive change in the performance.
Nick
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SNICKER Rollers
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Skylineloft
291 posts
Oct 31, 2007
3:57 PM
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Let us know what happens Nick.
Ray
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tapp
434 posts
Oct 31, 2007
5:45 PM
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Nick, I would wait till there are no hawks around before trying that. I thing you will find that at first they will trap thinging there going to get feed. Once they figure out that it's latter when they get feed, they will hang around on the roof longer and play around. Theses little buggers learn quick! The good and the bad.
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Tapp
Last Edited by on Oct 31, 2007 5:47 PM
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black_hawk_down
42 posts
Oct 31, 2007
10:48 PM
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Yes nick they learn fast and when you will feed them. They will try to find food elsewhere like on the ground. And don't let that happen because they'll get a habit of doing it especially when they do find it elsewhere. Good luck on it though. Jay....we are all still waiting for your next post. Good posts you guys.-joe
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fhtfire
1165 posts
Oct 31, 2007
11:44 PM
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Feeding for performance is something that can't be taught by posting how to do it. Every family is different on what they need. Where you live makes a diff...time of year...birds condition...etc etc.
I gave my comp prep feeding to Cliff about a year ago and it did not totally work for him..so he had to change some things...But he had a base to work off of.
You can feed straight wheat...milo...mix etc. It all really depends on how you look at your birds and how you get to know your birds. There is so much more to it then throwing in some wheat or giving them a tablespoon each....If I gave my birds a table spoon each they would be down in about 10 minutes.
It is all about trial and error and taking lots of notes. When you try something you must try it for at least two weeks so you can see the true affects. There are also lots of wives tales on what to feed and what you can and can't feed. For example....I feed my kit birds a mix with pellets....and they fly just fine on it. I was told when I first started that pellets will NOT work..that is wrong.
Just remember that you have to learn your birds and handle your birds. It is not just the feed. It is also rest. You have to know when your birds need rest....how they feel in the hand...Light or heavy....how they flew...fast...slow...high...low....weather conditions...is it hot or cold....age of the birds...young or old. There is so much more then just giving them the feed.
But most of all it is how your family will react to the feed and the rest. My birds will do just fine with a couple days rest and mix with some wheat and milo the day before they fly....how much feed is based on experience ....I know my birds and I know what they need and what time they need it...why...because I took LOTS of notes and did some trial and error...and had patience.....that is the key....if something did not work...I did not continue to try it.
Other families will fly for 3 hours on two grains of wheat..some need to be broken down..some need to be fed up...some are good on the down swing and some are good on the up swing of being broken down.
You also have to realize at certain times of the year...it does not matter what you feed them...they will suck...plain and simple.
My advice to anybody is to try different rations, types and let them fly. Pay attention to how they fly and feel the birds...handle the birds...make sure they are all getting enough grub after feeding and if they feel like they need mix. I never feed the same thing over and over...it is all based on how the birds act and feel...some weeks they get mostly mix some days mix and more wheat and milo...then I add in the suplements like Red Cell...ACV etc etc. I try and keep my birds happy and healthy and they usually put on a pretty good show everytime I open the door...
I have no problem..posting my comp prep schedule of feed, rest and suplement for you to try..but you may have to tweak it just a little....one thing when feeding for performance and getting the best out of the birds...you have to let the plan take its course....when I am about three days from a comp...my birds will not roll hardly at all..I get them a little strong and then I rest them for 2 days..throw the mix to them then...cut the rations and the type of grain...most would think that they screwed up if they judged the birds two or three days before the fly..because when my plan works...my birds are a little stiff....just an example of letting a plan play out and have patience.
rock and ROLL
paul
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ICEMAN710
10 posts
Nov 01, 2007
11:00 PM
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excellent cant wait, as im sure everyone else is....
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Gregg
223 posts
Nov 02, 2007
6:45 AM
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Normally when most of the salient points of a post are well covered, I tend to not add just for the sake of being heard or read. But two points are hanging that I want to touch on.
1) Jay, I'm not so sure that I want to take my birds down to the "ground zero" level that you described. That is a bit on the extreme. If you get a couple of birds that bounce upon release or shortly there after just because you took them so far down, aren't you risking screwing up the mental attitude of an otherwise solid performer? Or worse, injuring that bird thus making it of no value whatsoever? Seems like carrying the point just a bit too far and for what? Not trying to irritate, just have a real problem with taking birds down to the point where they are too light to control their performance. Good birds don't come that easy for many and that extreme may well ruin them.
2) For the average fancier, there is one aspect of feeding that has to be learned. But there are smart ways to learn and there are not so smart ways to learn. All rollers are not born "equal." What Joe or Jim or George or Ken or Gregg feed their birds for high quality and a good work rate may differ significantly. The major reasons for this include the factors already mentioned; weather, season, location,etc. But in the process of building each of their families, they tended to go with differing feeding programs. Their birds many years later reflect those differing feeding programs. What would be a stiff on Joe's feeding program would be a very good spinner on Ken's feeding program.
Baseline: Provided that you started with quality birds, the feeding program that you fly their youngsters on will in a large way determine their flight patterns, their level of performance, their frequency of performance, roll down percentages, stiffness, etc. That in turn affects your selection process and the whole direction that your loft is going. Thus the importance of this subject cannot be emphasized enough. That is why everyone suggests when you get a family of birds, find out everything you can about them, including the feeding from the man you recieved the birds from Then experiment, but do it carefully, with some consideration for the birds.
Have to stop and do some errands. Will be gone for a few days. Have a great weekend.
Gregg.
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Santandercol
1588 posts
Nov 02, 2007
6:50 AM
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Cool Jay,
Keep it coming.
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Kelly
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J_Star
1229 posts
Nov 02, 2007
7:34 AM
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Greg,
Good post. For your first point, Ground Zero is not an extreme. It is a base line to know that all your teammates are in equal weakened footing so that you can bring them all back up at the same level of performance equally. If you want all of them to perform with equal standards, the ground zero has to be the platform to start. Some birds will bounce upon release due to their excitement mixed with their hunger and broken down physically but not mentally. If you keep your birds locked up for a week in the kit box due to sever weather, and then you release them, you will risk a teammate or two to bump. Bumping is different than rolling down. Maybe the misunderstanding is that I am not explaining myself in writing in terms of thinking.
For the second point, if I feed my birds like I was told by the original well known breeder, then I will only be feeding them Wheat and I will risk them flying out to an extreme heights and coping with overflys. The reason I have some of Paul’s birds because I lost some of my best to overfly due to listening to the original breeder. I’ve learned my lessons, but trial and error will get you a step ahead, but I am not afraid to go out of the box and try new things.
I will tell the list how I come up with my way of prepping and I hope others will see that to post their way of prepping their kit with full explanation to rational and reasoning just the same I am doing to give the newbie and the experience alike a good view of ways that they can take with them and enhance their knowledge and gain a few tricks an techniques to share knowledge and advance this hobby to the next level.
I emphasis to you all that you need to practice prepping your kit as much as you can during the summer months to learn how to tweak your preparation facing all kind of weather or environment challenges and the curve ball that mother nature will throws at you. Plus it will create the Thick Skin feeling and mentality that it is not new to you and can scramble at the last minute.
Jay Alnimer
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MILO
712 posts
Nov 02, 2007
9:08 AM
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Reading Jay's posts, it is clear to me that he is very capable of make the necessary adjustments on the spot just days before a big fly. This is something a lot of fanciers have some diffculty learning.
I am one that handles the birds (each bird individually) often. I like to see the physical condition of each member of the team. Knowing how your family will react to different feed grain is also a tremendous advantage.
I have tried many different systems from many fanciers over the years and have found them to be very good guidlines. However, I have often found myself saying, "What the hell happened?" I think following the formula to the exact plan is static and making the necessary adjustments is what sets certain flyers apart from the rest.
I compare prepping your teams for fly day to cooking a meal. You find yourself over a hot stove, adding a bit of this, throwing in a pinch of that, turning up the heat...taste, nope, needs salt! There is a recipe, but it is only a guideline. Each individual team is different. Each individual bird is different. Much like cooking, every meal is unique in it's own way, and it was the chef that took the ingredients and led everything to the desired outcome.
I hate to simplify it, or compare it to cooking...but it is almost the same. For the novice fancier, the obvious is not obvious at all.
You guys talked about ground zero. I agree that you need a reference point. From there you can see cause and effect. I can't stress more the need for regularity in flying and routine (Off-prep-time). This includes rest days, to see how rest effects performance. This is where you can learn the most about your team and how different outcomes can be obtained by different feeding regimens and fly techniques.
Anyway, carry on. Good posts. Just thought I'd add a few thoughts.
c
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Bill C
38 posts
Nov 02, 2007
10:27 PM
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Hey Nick, long time no see! I read here alot late in the evening and catch up with what the topics are.
You mentioned you might fly in the morning and feed in the evening? I have lost two kits over the past five years by doing that by accidently flying and fed them too much and flew again the next day too early. I know you said fly in am and feed in pm but they might build up too much energy if flown say 12 hours instead of 24 after feeding. Remember Pensom said the best way to lose your birds is to feed them too much, I found out also by flying too soon after not giving them 24 hours time between feeding. So just make sure you use caution with them, no high pressure days ect. Enjoy your humor, keeps things casual. Bill in Sacto.
Jay thank you for all the time you put into giving that kind of information, It is very well written. Email me if you will I have one small question for you Cridercrader@aol.com Bill
Last Edited by on Nov 02, 2007 10:47 PM
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nicksiders
2407 posts
Nov 02, 2007
11:24 PM
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Bill Crider, good to see you in here. Don't make yourself so scarice.
Yah, I have re-thought the AM/PM thing because of that. If my life or work schedule provides I am going to feed them after they trap from the AM fly. This is enlue of having feed available right after release. More work, maybe. What I am trying to do is make sure they break the habit of desiring to land early knowing they will have food waiting for them. I am also going to re-institute the whistle when it is feed time. The reason I am picking AM for flying is that's when my best time to avoid the BOP. If I fly later in the day, the hawks hit me.
Change is good.
Nick
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SNICKER Rollers
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quickspin
33 posts
Nov 03, 2007
12:00 AM
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Hi Nick,
Have you try different kinds of see? I have found that food is one of the most inportant things on how to control the time of flying.
My birds with 1 tbs / bird of Winners Cup 15.5% will make them fly for hours. Each famliy of birds is different but is all on the food on every one. You might want to try different sees and note the effects.
Lock the birds in for 3 days while changing the new see. This helps my birds and helps me know the difference right a way.
You might want to start feeding around 2 tbs / bird and then dropping the food at the 2nd to 3rd day.
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RUDY..ZUPPPPP
355 posts
Nov 03, 2007
2:50 AM
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Hey Jay good post ...
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W@yne
719 posts
Nov 03, 2007
4:21 AM
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Jay
Good post and well written a very thorough post that goes into a lot of detail.
Its a hard question really whats good for one strain or family doesnt work for another family.
Wheat is the main ingredient and staple diet for most flyers in the UK who compete in competition.
Correct tweaking feeds here and there depending on how their birds are performing adding vitamins etc.
Every family reacts different to another family of birds but if you follow Jays post i don't think you would go far wrong and learn a thing or two at the same time its a post that goes into more detail than i use myself. Well done Jay.
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Regards
W@yne UK
Patience Perseverance Perfection
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Double R
150 posts
Nov 03, 2007
5:40 AM
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Jay,
Good post I am enjoying it very much and I appreciate what your doing here. Being a newbie I know what it's like trying to figure out where to start, what to feed, when to feed and so on. I know what works for one may not work for another but it's a place to start, then tweek to fit your setup and situation. Thanks and keep up the good work it is appreciated....
Robby
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Double R
151 posts
Nov 03, 2007
5:59 AM
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Hey Rudy,
Things are so far so good around here. I had a good time last month at Jerry's. He has a young bird kit that looks like it's going to make him a good competition kit. It looked good and by spring will be even better....
Robby
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RUDY..ZUPPPPP
361 posts
Nov 03, 2007
6:04 AM
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Well Good deal Hope he does well and u too..
All Misourri flyers are excellent contenders...
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Missouri-Flyer
889 posts
Nov 03, 2007
9:31 AM
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Thanks Robby and RUUDDDYYY,
I prepped that kit the past 3 days in a way that I have never tried. Upon release, they gained altitude faster than they ever have. They rose to 500 feet, and started the best show I have seen from this young kit. They flew for 43 minutes..I had 9 in there that were kicking A@#..Wish I had more like that on a daily bases. My birds react differently than others I have seen to food and training. Mine would not fly off the kit roof if I tried as what has been posted..Different strokes for different folks..Find what works for your birds, and play with that program, switching often as to not have them peaked or broken down to often..Rudy, you need to come up and watch some birds fly my man!...I emailed ya also..check it.
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Jerry
Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
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RUDY..ZUPPPPP
370 posts
Nov 03, 2007
12:07 PM
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OH...iAM DEFINETLY WILL GO............
Visit you all just give me time to save some pennies.lol
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RUDY..ZUPPPPP
373 posts
Nov 03, 2007
4:56 PM
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HEY JAY...
Does tony care that Top plus???
the stuff u put in water ???
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J_Star
1232 posts
Nov 03, 2007
5:25 PM
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I don't know ask him. I would like for him to carry this stuff. It has many uses around the loft. I got it from Foys a while back.
Jay Alnimer
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RUDY..ZUPPPPP
374 posts
Nov 03, 2007
5:53 PM
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THXXX...JAYYYYYYYY
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Electric-man
786 posts
Nov 03, 2007
6:05 PM
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Please contiue, Jay!
Don't worry about the being too "lengthy" part! I've got 13 hrs of blending oil tonight!Your doing me a favor in more ways than one!
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Val
"Site Moderator"
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Skylineloft
310 posts
Nov 03, 2007
6:11 PM
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Yes Jay,
Good stuff.
Ray
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nicksiders
2412 posts
Nov 03, 2007
6:21 PM
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Jay,
Vast amount of information and I appreciate you going into detail. I am going to print your response......it is good stuff.
Nick
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SNICKER Rollers
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Ballrollers
936 posts
Nov 03, 2007
6:53 PM
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Good work, Jay. I appreciate hearing your philosphy behind what you are doing. When you finish, do you think you could distill it down into:
Preparing the kit_____________
_____________
_____________
Day 3_____________
_____________
_____________
Day 2_____________
_____________
_____________
Day 1_____________
_____________
_____________
Fly day_____________
_____________
_____________
I want to make sure I've got it right when I test drive your system! LOL! Then send me a bird box. I've got a Christmas present for you!
YITS,
Cliff
Last Edited by on Nov 03, 2007 6:54 PM
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Velo99
1377 posts
Nov 03, 2007
7:22 PM
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Jay,
Really good stuff bro.
Some of the things we have to do certainly are`t very enjoyable,and breaking a kit down is one of them. There should be a plan in place to immediately get the birds some relief when you get them down all the way. When they are stressed in that way bad things can happen. Thats another reason we should have our birds healthy enough to endure some of the things we will deal out.
I would like to touch on a few things about why kits don`t react the same to feeds and handling.
One is inattention to details. You don`t have to spend super enormous time with your birds unless you wanna be single. So maximize the time you do spend with them. Notebooks and a little paint go a long way. After I had rollers for a few months I could tell by the way a bird flew and rolled,which one it was,and if it didn`t something was wrong.
Hint no.1 take it and apply it to different situations.
Overall health of your birds.
Worm a couple of times a year. Give em the usual vaccinations.Keep your stuff clean. Feed a balanced diet. W/M are fine with some supplemental seeds from time to time. Frequent bathing with insecticide will keep em parasite free. Sunlight is important. Access to an aviary is so very important.Common sense stuff.
Don`t go overboard.
Fly time. Some guys say the best time is in the morning. If that were the case I would never fly. I almost always fly in the evenings. My birds like it. I like it. I can sit down and have a beer and a smoke check out my birdies and chill.Just be consistent. Then you can take a slot noone else wants and kick em in the shin.
I think this is the most important thing of all.
These birds cant be ON all the time. Give em a break. Do maintenance flying. Find what mix of fly time,rest time and feed gives them the best DAILY PERFORMANCE.
That is the baseline of what you really have to work with. Weather and the season will change the fly but you can get an average of what you have. If your all over the place look at your program and reassess what you are doing. Once you get the average, you won`t be shooting in the dark when it comes comp time.
If you are doing these things or something similar you should be able to apply J`s techniques with a degree of success.
yits
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V99
Flippin`The Bird!
http://www.bluedotloft.50megs.com
Last Edited by on Nov 03, 2007 7:25 PM
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RUDY..ZUPPPPP
381 posts
Nov 04, 2007
2:46 AM
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Keep on posting Jay very interesting post...
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gotspin7
344 posts
Nov 04, 2007
4:46 AM
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Ok Jay, you got my attention! Jay just finish us of already!You are killing me on the waiting!!LOL, Jay thanks for sharing this is what is all about!
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Sal Ortiz
Last Edited by on Nov 04, 2007 4:47 AM
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CSRA
367 posts
Nov 04, 2007
5:20 AM
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Real good info guys
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CSRA
368 posts
Nov 04, 2007
5:21 AM
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Real good info guys
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