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The Original All Roller Talk Discussion Board Archive >
True Spinners
True Spinners
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MILO
810 posts
Nov 07, 2007
8:24 PM
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That's it?
LOL
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Mongrel Lofts
425 posts
Nov 07, 2007
8:28 PM
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Milo, LD, Jerry, Ray,
My guess we are all talking around the same circle, but different directions.. Milo, the best kits I have ever flown, were loaded with many of the best rollers I have ever flown. You pushed a square peg in a round whole on that one! LOL I think the point I was trying to make, was most real roller men are breeding for speed! I can still remember my last WC prelim fly, I had that son #11 off your #604 hen X #1488 flying in that kit.. He was hitting 40+ time and again.. Fast as they get and not no wimpy 20 foot! Every man standing in the yard had a hand in the air pointing him out. The kit was working and some others were doing a good job but #11 was a star. Now, I would say he was second to none. He had it all, speed, style, depth, frequency and worked like a mad man to get back to the team after a deep roll. Do you think this bird is any better than the best many others have flown and stocked? Outstanding he was, but he was not the first great roller ever bred. I don't feel like I have seen or bred something most have never seen. Many others around this country and others have seen and flown their own mottle of #11. Not just in the last 10 years, but over the last few 100 years. As King Salomon would say, there is nothing new under sun! There is no few men who have all the truly fast birds that most of us have never seen! When anyone makes the claim to have speed most have never seen It's a great myth that many a reputation has been built on! The truth is, Many, if not Most who have been in this breed for many years and breeding to improve the roll in the air, have seen birds equal to anything any one of you have ever seen! I mean anyone of you, Great old timer or WC winner!
All that just to say, No one has the secret speed weapon. Roller men can spin a yarn that would make an Irish Leprechaun give up his pot of gold. At time's I think some roller men really think they have found the end of the rainbow. They have some outstanding speed that few have ever seen before. I have heard it for so many years, from so many different roller men, It sounds like a used car sales man to me anymore.. Show me, the tell me days are long gone!! OK,, I"m done with this topic,, LOL KGB
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MILO
811 posts
Nov 07, 2007
8:31 PM
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So Kenny. Why do a lot of guys think there is a difference breeding for comp kits and individuals? It's the same thing. I don't get it. What's the diff? I don't understand the argument.
c
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Skylineloft
327 posts
Nov 07, 2007
8:56 PM
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IM with Milo,
IM having a hard time understanding this as well.
Not to be controversial, I just want to understand the difference.
Ray
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Mongrel Lofts
426 posts
Nov 07, 2007
8:57 PM
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So Kenny. Why do a lot of guys think there is a difference breeding for comp kits and individuals? It's the same thing. I don't get it. What's the diff? I don't understand the argument.
c
Milo,
If I maybe brutally honest here. It's because most can't or won't work hard enough to compete with top quality spin.
It's true some just want to win and they will breed common roll that is short and can turn to win. We ignore these tumbler breeders. Good judges won't score crap!!As Birmingham roller breeders, we want it all, Not one great roller but 20 great rollers working as a team. What a challenge!! A team made up of birds like your speed hen. That is what the Birmingham roller breeder is reaching for right? Guy's like 3757 surely are not comparing Birmingham's to common competition tumblers. We are all talking about breeding true quality. Great kits are made up of 20 great individuals and its no small feet. One of the hardest things in animal breeding to achieve.. That is what keeps us trying! WE ARE JUST A LITTLE CRAXY!!! LOL KGB
PS. Milo, what I want to fly is a kit made up of 20 birds worthy of the stock loft. I mean birds that roll like #11 or your speed hen. Its a goal, but most kits are full of good rollers and a few stock birds. Do you think the best Bruce Cooper breeds rolls any faster than the best you breed? The best rollers I have seen in the air, were flown in competition kits. Never seen a back yard loner fly the goods. Not saying they can't, I just have never seen one. But they always tell me they don;t fly competition because they fly for the true champion, not competition rollers. BS they just can't compete and its a good sounding excuse to be a loser!!!!!!!!!!!!!!My point, No one has a lock on the goods. Some just work harder if they have the gene pool. If they work hard and have the gene pool, they aren't scared to fly competition, becuase they know great rollers can win!!
Last Edited by on Nov 07, 2007 9:18 PM
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Skylineloft
328 posts
Nov 07, 2007
9:28 PM
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Kenny,
I think this is the type of conversation that LD wanted to see. I did as well. What you say makes since that many just breed for comp and do not worry about the true quality of the spin or the speed that will result in the true high velocity performers. But I do think that there are many more that do take this serious then we give credit. LD mentioned a 1 to 10 scoring system, I would like to hear more about this scoring system LD if you could take the time to post it. I love flying competition, but at the end of the day, its that high velocity performer that gets me excited. I believe that you can breed a Family of birds that can do both.
Ray
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MILO
814 posts
Nov 07, 2007
9:38 PM
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Nice post Kenny. Ballsy. Thanks for your honesty.
c
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GREED FOR SPEED LOFT
202 posts
Nov 07, 2007
11:05 PM
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Ray (SKYLINELOFT),Laron may not come back to discuss on this post as he wrote, but here is the1-10 scoring system the SBRC had-has #1- being the velocity of the roller 1 through 10, the faster the bird the higher in number. #2- being the style 1 through 10, the tightness and wing positon. #3 being the frequency--- 1 through 5, the bird would score not just for mere sake of just working but for the working of quality action. #4 would be 1 through 5 for depth factor (1-- starting about 10-15ft) the depth not being more important the #1 and #2. It is total of high score of thirty points total, when a bird that had scored 26 points or higher we would get that bird certified . One person did not judge but all the members did and believe it or not the scoring of all of us came very close to coraborating.
There you have it.
Richard Luna
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quickspin
50 posts
Nov 07, 2007
11:59 PM
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I agreed on this post.
I feel like competition has done more to destroy the quality than anything. Like the English birds.You don,t see that much color in their birds but look at what all they do(as well as many others) to try and get the edge to win in competition.Most are breeding to produce what the judges like to see and what will score points.I like the single bird point system.If the roller can do it it gets the points.You get these 20 bird kits and there is no one around who can judge them correctly when 10 or 15 roll at once.They are scored according to what the judge thought he seen.The more the competition thing grows the less quality rollers you will see.I have always wondered why Pensom never competed in this country.I think he knew this very thing.
I liked the shirttail thing.I agree a good roller with great velocity is a sight to behold.I don,t get to make many runs a year to my stock loft.LOL. David
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bman
486 posts
Nov 08, 2007
5:09 AM
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Milo,Kgb,list, I have a question.No one has used the term "smooth".I have YB that can only be desribed as smooth.She has good speed but not what I would call super fast but when she rolls (20 footer) it looks like a ball bearing on glass.It just looks effortless.I have a few birds that appear faster but she really stands out to me anyway. Where would you place her in the context of this discussion ?
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Ron
Borderline lofts
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GREED FOR SPEED LOFT
204 posts
Nov 08, 2007
6:45 AM
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Bman, yes this bird would fall into this context, birds like you described were flown in our club(SBRC) and they were scored according to the club score system.
R-LUNA
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Skylineloft
329 posts
Nov 08, 2007
7:20 AM
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Thanks Richard,
I like how the scoring is done for individual competition.
I can see how this would help improve the breed.
If more clubs would add this to there club events,
I think that it would help improve the quality of everyones stock involved.
Thanks for sharing,
Ray Fisher
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Gregg
246 posts
Nov 08, 2007
8:26 AM
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First, Nick, Great to hear that you wife is home and recovering. That is good news and we are all thankful for that. All the prayers you guys said were a request to God. Now be sure to tell him thank you.
Second, just had the opportunity to read through this thread, albeit a bit faster than I would like. I really believe that you guys are splitting really fine hairs. Yes, an exceptional pigeon is going to be noticed. We are all human. The only person who has to concentrate totally on the whole kit is the judge. The rest of us are free to ooh and aah as we please. But I also believe that anyone oohing and aahing should have enough respect to seperate themselves from the immediate area of the judge so as not to distract him in any way. I really believe there should always be some seperation between the judge and timekeeper and the gallery. After your fly you can find out what it is that he saw, good or not so good. And if he is a good judge and fancier, he will be able to constructively critique your birds for you. JMHO.
Third, if you are completely satisfied with your breeders, you are standing still. You should always be striving to improve your overall quality, both the kits and the breeding loft. It's like which came first, the chicken or the egg? Do you want a better chicken or a better egg. They go hand in hand and again, if you are not trying to improve both, you are standing still. Time to start over.
Fourth, most of the posts here are showing me a truly dedicated group that are continually seeking improvement. That tells me that this hobby is alive and vibrant. Without dedicated roller fanciers there are no improvements. Doesn't mean that we all have the greatest birds or are the best managers. But it does tell me that there are a lot of fanciers on here that are trying and are headed in the right direction. I fit in that group.
So I really did enjoy this thread. Will come back and read it again when I get a bit more time.
Gregg.
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Gregg
247 posts
Nov 08, 2007
8:35 AM
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Oh, and one more point. C.H. made it a long time ago. You all know who C.H. is. I don't think he is on here so I will abide by the rules and not mention his name:>) His simple point: Every team is built one bird at a time.
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CSRA
419 posts
Nov 08, 2007
8:27 PM
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Thanks Guys for all you comments
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