rollerman132
147 posts
Nov 08, 2007
5:41 PM
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Whats the difference between a competition roller and a non-competition roller?
Last Edited by on Nov 08, 2007 5:42 PM
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MILO
817 posts
Nov 08, 2007
7:19 PM
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Absolutely nothing.
c
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nicksiders
2434 posts
Nov 08, 2007
7:27 PM
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A Birmingham Roller is a Birmingham Roller. It does not care that it is competing or not. Same bird.
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BigRiverRollerLofts
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rollerman132
149 posts
Nov 08, 2007
9:18 PM
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I feel the same way .With all the talk of competition breed rollers,Is there anyone that feels that the competition roller is in a class of its own? just trying to get some feed back
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MILO
818 posts
Nov 08, 2007
9:21 PM
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No.
c
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quickspin
53 posts
Nov 08, 2007
9:32 PM
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A roller is a roller, you compete if you want to and it will not change your roller.
Some guys that do not compete have some excellent birds.
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fhtfire
1171 posts
Nov 09, 2007
12:50 AM
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There is no such thing as a competition roller. A Birmingham roller is a special bird that some just choose to compete with.....If you compete or not they are the same birds. Competition just seems to bring out the best in the fancier and the best in the birds.
You have your pride on the line so you work with the birds more....But there are some who do not compete and work there birds hard too....Just like there are competitors that do not put the time in to there birds and have mediocre birds.
What I am trying to say is that weather you compete or not..they are rollers.
I will use this as an example....If Scott Campbell or Even Joe Bob decide to quit competing...are they still competition rollers...or are they just rollers....They are rollers either way.....or how about someone that is in there first year...does that say there birds are competition rollers....so .....they are all rollers....some compete and some don't.......
That was just about as clear as mud..!!!
rock and ROLL
Paul
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J_Star
1253 posts
Nov 09, 2007
4:43 AM
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I think there is difference in the way they are prepped but not in the birds themselves. “Competition Rollers” is a term used to identify a group of rollers that were breed for certain performance such as fast, not too deep and without major faults. People tend to select the best they have and put them in a kit of 20 based on performance traits and behavior. Even Competition Rollers on days when they are not prepped, they are just B. Rollers but the birds performance not hitting on all 8 cylinders.
Jay Alnimer
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SAT Roller
67 posts
Nov 09, 2007
7:05 AM
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I would have to agree with Jay as I think the birds are all basically "Rollers"; however, folks that are serious about competition do not want the deeper birds even if they roller with true style and speed as it takes too long for a 60-80 foot roller to return to the kit, if you have 3-4 of these birds in your kit then your scoring could be stopped and started, stopped & started etc.
Personally I like deep birds as a 50-60 foot spinner that is tight and right is a site to behold. So if and when I do compete in the future as I am just getting back I want to see deep & tight & right. If I am not competitive, oh well, I am sure they will like what they see. This has always been my goal. Some folks believe that deep birds are sloppy, this is not true. They may not be as often but in my book they are well worth watching and a thrill each time they roll.
JMHO
Richard
Last Edited by on Nov 09, 2007 7:06 AM
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Ragin Rollers
21 posts
Nov 09, 2007
7:38 AM
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Iam pretty new to the roller hobby, but i think you guys are wrong. the reason is because a comp roller and a show roller are not the same bird, this is the reason the show rollers are bred for show an the true birmingham bred for comp. they have moved away from rolling to bred show rollers, show rollers though the same type of bird, i think now has lost most of its abilty to roll. Just my opion what do you think....
Russ........
Ragin Rollers
PHx, AZ
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3757
225 posts
Nov 09, 2007
7:56 AM
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Ragin Rollers - Excellent!!!! You are thinking outside of the box!
Last Edited by on Nov 09, 2007 7:56 AM
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W@yne
747 posts
Nov 09, 2007
8:04 AM
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Ragin Rollers
You are absolutely right ,Show rollers and competition rollers are miles apart. A different bird altogether
Regards
W@yne UK
Patience Perseverance Perfection
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J_Star
1254 posts
Nov 09, 2007
8:05 AM
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We are not talking about rollers and show rollers. We are discussing the same old Birmingham Rollers that are used for compotation purposes or used for backyarding purposes.
Jay Alnimer
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GREED FOR SPEED LOFT
209 posts
Nov 09, 2007
8:12 AM
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RAGIN,I believe that from the beginning the BR was the same but as years went by there was fanciers that had to try to make the perfect BR as in looks, feathers, length,head ,shape,beak, beauty, and so on and so on,,, and the show roller was in focus and bred for,,,, and through that,,, quality traits of the athelete were lost and confusion still is amongst us.
R-LUNA
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rollerman132
151 posts
Nov 09, 2007
8:54 AM
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When you look in the back of the nbrc bulletin, you see ads that state that birds they are selling are breed for competition. Cant you just get any ones birds that do it right in the air and compete? Or would a person have a better chance of winning, by getting birds from someone who competes?
Last Edited by on Nov 09, 2007 8:55 AM
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Ragin Rollers
22 posts
Nov 09, 2007
9:28 AM
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Hey guys, Now check this out. I have a question? Rollers Didnt all These birds come from the same place,How can we have so many different birds from the same place with diff names(i.e. Jaconett,Pensom,Higgins,Plona Ect) What im trying to say is that i heard that u shouldnt mix diff, names Of birds. Can anyone explain why?
Russs.........
Ragin Rollers.
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ROLLERMAN
163 posts
Nov 09, 2007
9:31 AM
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They are the same bird . with a different standard set for competitive flying
al
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quickspin
56 posts
Nov 09, 2007
9:40 AM
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Rollers are Rollers to begin with. If you want to compete you can compete with any type of roller. If you want to win you have to have bred them for short 10-15 feet rollers, frequent 3-6 times per minute, with quality, speed, kit excellent, regroup after the break in seconds. This is my goal right now.
If you breed 40-50 feet rollers that take 30 seconds to regroup you can still compete but you will loose many breaks that you could of got by having short rollers.
You can also compete with tumblers which now in days is popular.
You have to know what is your goal first, then you go and visit many lofts and see which ones are the ones you like and you buy those birds.
If you buy rollers from the best guy that has rollers it helps a lot but if you don't know how to manage them it will not make any differce.
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Alohazona
341 posts
Nov 09, 2007
10:03 AM
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Guys,
We are definetly talking about the same bird,[competition/hard backyard flying].What the major difference is the agenda.Do you think when Rick Mee was in the Middle east and not competing he was any less of a flyer?There are things that come up in life that do not afford the extra effort of competition guidelines.Sometimes, the time that you have is the difference between keeping the birds and totally giving them up.
There are some out there that portray if you are not putting up your birds for the world to see,that your birds are junk and you are a panzy for not competing.When the truth is peoples reasons for keeping BR'S vary,year to year,month to month, at times.Believe me,this is a voice of a small minority and a selfish one.What gives any one the right to put their methods and agendas over the next mans.Years of flying experience?....Aloha,Todd
P.S.They are the same bird if they are bred with performance as a top priority.Many fanciers have short sides to their familys,and DEEP sides to their familys.Once they have locked in those attributes,they usually at some point integrate the two.
Last Edited by on Nov 09, 2007 10:10 AM
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Electric-man
822 posts
Nov 09, 2007
10:19 AM
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Rollerman, I think the answer is in your own question, you asked; Cant you just get any ones birds that do it right in the air and compete? The birds that do it right in the air, would probably be good candidates for a compitition kit!
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Val
"Site Moderator"
Last Edited by on Nov 09, 2007 12:18 PM
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3757
226 posts
Nov 09, 2007
10:34 AM
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All newcomers to the forum do not assume anything! If a question is open ended you answer it to the best of your knowledge. Never make assumptions until you have any data to come up with your conclusion.
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fhtfire
1172 posts
Nov 09, 2007
3:35 PM
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First off...Those who say that comp people want 10-15' rollers are full of crap. Comp guys that don't want deep rollers...that is wrong too. Do I want a 60' roller...NO becuase they usually fall apart and quality goes. If I had a 60'roller that kept the speed up and returned to the kit...HELL YES>....My multipliers would shoot up.
Most comp guys do not want shallow roller...or what I call POPCORN kits...meaning they are BORING>>>unorganized no seperation of mass confusion breaks...Most comp guys that I know....love to have the deeper birds in the kit and they do not mess the kit up at all.
There have been some on this site that have seen my birds fly and I fly deeper birds...35-50 and they return just fine..and hold it together...They are few and far in between(50')....Remember...the breaks are just your RAW points...your mulitipliers really jack up the score...so having DEPTH is a plus...along with quality.
Nick Siders will tell you that a deep bird can still hold it together and fly back to the kit like a rocket....he witnessed his SUPER CHICKEN do it over and over even in the wind.
If you are breeding for 10-15' rollers...you better go back to the drawing board...what you want is a mixed kit of deep rollers, active rollers....basically TEAM players...
There is no difference between the two....comp and non comp...and non comp ARE NOT SHOW ROLLERS>>>WHERE THE *#$&# DID THAT COME FROM>>>LOL>> Again..COMP rollers are ones that one CHOOSES TO COMPETE>..the second you compete...they are comp rollers wheather they are good or not....same goes from non comp rollers.....if I sit out a couple years...my birds are no longer comp rollers...not hard to figure out guys....My birds would not lose anything if I quit competing...all that means is that I did not pay 35 bucks and enter a fly and get a pin for my hat.....my birds could tear it up or choke regardless..
FOR THE LAST TIME...Competition flyers do NOT want 10-15' brids....those birds get culled at my house......20' is my minimum.....no maximum as long as they can hold the quality together and still return to the kit.
Just remember if your deep birds went real deep and scored together and held the quality and speed...well you just caught the judges eye for higher multiplier points....and deep birds do not hurt scoring...while they are RETURNING to the kit and the birds break again...the new break gets scored...so as long as they are returning from a roll they are not hurting the kit....It is not hard to pile up a bunch of raw points...they don't mean shit if you have a 1.1 depth and a 1.1 quality.....as compared to a 1.5 depth and a 1.5 quality....
for example.....160 points raw for the popcorn kit....1.1 depth and 1.3 quality=1.43x 160= 228.8 points...now 160 raw is a lot of breaks...for example 8,5,5,7,10,9,5,12,8,5,5,5,9,8,5,6,6,10,5,5...160 Raw is VERY DAMN GOOD SCORE ...that is what the score card would read...for the popcorn kit....You have a lot of breaks but you get a 1.1 for depth..a 1.0 is 10' for me the minimum. I gave a 1.1 for the 10'-15' birds
So lets just say that you only score a 138 Raw with my kind of kit (Less breaks then the popcorn)...so your score card would not have as many breaks...then you get a 1.5D and 1.3 quality...which I have had this very score before...except the quality was 1.4..but I will keep the quality the same on both..soooo
1.5X1.3=1.95X 138Raw= 269.1.....
So your more active shallow kit...just got WHOOPED by my less active deep kit with quality being the same...to barely beat the "shallow kit" All I would need is a 119 raw..and that is not hard to get at all with a "ok" team of birds....So you can keep your shallow 10-15' birds and I will keep culling them and I will fly my 20-50' birds...
SHOW ROLLERS ARE NOT PART OF THIS POST PERIOD>>>NOBDODY SAID ANYTHING ABOUT SHOW ROLLERS>>>>DIFFERENT BREED ALL TOGETHER>>>THEY CAN'T EVEN FLY!!!
rock and ROLL
Paul
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fhtfire
1173 posts
Nov 09, 2007
3:44 PM
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As far as birds that are being sold "bred for competition" does not mean that they are better then a non-competitor...it just means that if a person is breeding and competing(and winning...or coming close)...then they may have some good birds...usually competition brings out the BEST in everyone...the birds and the fancier....so the odds of getting better birds from a competitor are higher....but not all competitors have good birds.
When I see bred for competition and it is from a legitimate breeder who is competing and has some good scores to prove it..as well as word of mouth from people who have witnessed the birds first hand...then you are pretty safe....to me it means that they are striving for excellence due to competition....when you compete in anything you let it all hang out and human instinct is NOT OK with losing....competing does not mean that a bird is shorter or deeper or not as good...it just means that the odds are better...
for example...I ride ATV's///when I am riding for enjoyment...I still ride damn good...but I take my time and just enjoy the ride....but when I am competing in a race...it is balls to the wall.....You are on the edge of out of control..you take the jumps with the throttle pinned...you pay attention to every lap time...practice more..and buy the best equipment to help you win....wether I compete or not...I am the same rider...but if I am competing I naturally take it up a notch.
Rock and ROLL
Paul
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rollerman132
152 posts
Nov 09, 2007
3:56 PM
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Paul
Good post, you pretty much summed it up.
Milo
It all depends on the individual skater, and not the sport lol.
Kid
Any horse that races can be called racehorse, it might not win but its still a racehorse lol.
Last Edited by on Nov 09, 2007 4:05 PM
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quickspin
62 posts
Nov 10, 2007
12:19 AM
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I have 25-50 feet rollers to begin with. The point of having short rollers is to have more breaks per minute not ones or twice a minute like some say.
If you can only breaks twice a minute is better to have deep birds but if you can double or triple the brakes even better.
By the time a bird that is 50-60 feet a kit could of done 2-3 times more breaks already.
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MILO
827 posts
Nov 10, 2007
12:21 AM
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How do you really feel Paul? LOL
c
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fhtfire
1174 posts
Nov 10, 2007
1:12 AM
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Quickspin,
I totally understand what you are saying...but it is all in what you pick....You have to have the deep birds that are strong...that can hold it together and have HEART! they slingshot back to the kit like their tails are on fire.. You must also remember that your deep birds can be returning to the kit and if the kit dumps again...the score counts...as long as the birds are on there way back to the kit from a roll. You have to find the birds that roll deep and get back...Some of my best deep birds...return to the kit fast...like they only rolled 20'...I pulled a lavender cock last year that would hit 40 pretty consistant and would be right back to the kit.
You also have to pick the right birds that make a good team...some of my best teams actually kind of "hover" or wait for the birds to return istead of flying away.
I totally get your point...but you can have the best of both worlds with proper selection. I am not saying to have a kit of all deep birds that only roll twice a minute...I am talking a kit that works together....
And Milo...that is how I feel...LOL
rock adn ROLL
Paul
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GREED FOR SPEED LOFT
210 posts
Nov 10, 2007
4:50 AM
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Sorry guys ,what a pendejo I am ,I misunderstoond the context..LMAO
Thanks Paul(fhtfire)
R-Luna
Last Edited by on Nov 10, 2007 4:50 AM
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Santandercol
1612 posts
Nov 10, 2007
7:27 AM
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Milo,
Figure skaters train all their lives to do pirouettes and all that fancy stufff.Can you imagine Todd Bertussi dancing like that??Now,,,can you imagine a figure skater taking a hit in the corner from Bertussi?The figure skater would be all broken to hell.----------
Kelly
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Velo99
1388 posts
Nov 10, 2007
8:09 AM
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Quickspin,
The judge I was talking to the other day said he doesn`t like short rollers. He likes a few good deep rollers in the kits to add to the multiplier. He said a kit of shorties is as exciting as watching paint dry. No depth no multiplier no bonus points no win. :(
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V99
Flippin`The Bird!
http://www.bluedotloft.50megs.com
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quickspin
64 posts
Nov 10, 2007
9:09 AM
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What I want in a kit is great #1 speed, #2 great quality, #3 great style, #4 big breaks, #5 good frequency, #6 Kit good, in that order. Just my opinion. This is what my breeders do right now, but was thinking to shorter them out to have more breaks. I really didn't wanted to do this because I like deep birds.
I do have some deep birds in the 40-80 feet which are very fast and return to the kit in seconds, but ones they past 40' they seem to change wing at the end. I don't like this, so I want to stay bellow 40'. This might not be the case with others.
If you have more than one bird out of the break it will not count the break. My question is how many birds do you need to have your multiplier jump for depth and for quality. If I only have 1 deep bird which I think is the most you can have and be ok or have 3 but not to frequent?
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MILO
830 posts
Nov 10, 2007
9:16 AM
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I'd sure like to see that Kel...LOL
c
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Velo99
1389 posts
Nov 10, 2007
9:17 AM
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Quickspin,
Check the rules bro.If a bird is returning directly to the kit after a break,it isn`t out, provided it doesn`t roll again.
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V99
Flippin`The Bird!
http://www.bluedotloft.50megs.com
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fhtfire
1175 posts
Nov 10, 2007
4:38 PM
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Velo is right,
If you have birds out that just rolled...then they are not considered out birds. So if you have a 8 bird break and 4 roll real deep and are returning and the kit dumps again...then they are scored....the rules are set up to allow birds to roll and and return to the kit and still score.
Depth has nothing to do with out birds unless they turn the wrong way or make a loop to catch the kit...so if they roll deep and then shoot back to the kit...they are not out...
rock and roll
Paul
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