Windjammer Loft
29 posts
Nov 14, 2007
4:33 PM
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Question....First, what are the advantages, if any, between the open breeding system and the locked down system?? When using an open loft breeding system how do you keep records of what pr produced what youngster? Or isn't this taken into consideration? Iam having a brain fart when it comes to this system....LOL.Iam use to paring up my birds myself. This way I know what is what. I really would like to try this system out this breeding season but, not to sure of all the difficulties,if any. Sure could use some much needed ADVICE.
Fly High and Roll On
Paul
Last Edited by on Nov 14, 2007 4:35 PM
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RXR Loft
62 posts
Nov 14, 2007
4:57 PM
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what you must do first is make breeder boxes to fit two nest bowls,a removable front and room to get it on...
I lock my pairs up until the eggs are laid..
than the face/front door comes off.
now, normaily this is done to all of my pairs at once..
so no hanky-panky go's on yes, cocks will strut on other hens, but the hen's will not squat for them.
I can post some of my photos for you to see..
hope this helps
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Rudy
RxR Loft
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spanky
79 posts
Nov 14, 2007
5:18 PM
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i breed in INDIVITUAL pen's thats the only way you really know whos the real parent's are. would never do open loft again!
SPANKY
SGVS
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Windjammer Loft
32 posts
Nov 14, 2007
5:38 PM
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Rudy..........I have 2 breeding rooms 6x8x10. One is equipped with an 8 pen individual breeding compartments already.(Like the ones that Tony uses.) The other room I was thinking of doing the open loft system. But, do I still need the nestboxes with the fronts on? Yes, maybe if I saw yours it might help me out.
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Fly High and Roll On
Paul
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3757
248 posts
Nov 14, 2007
5:39 PM
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Individual pens all the way for the last thirty five years. How can you truly have a breeding strategy with an open loft knowing the high percentages of mishaps and illegitimacy? Some studies show high percentages of illegitimacy when breeding in an open loft.
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nicksiders
2478 posts
Nov 14, 2007
6:06 PM
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I lock 'em up for a couple of weeks to make sure the mating bond takes place. I then open it up one nestbox at a time per day. The birds tend to be happier and more desease free then when I individualy cage bred them. You cannot guarantee the parentage of the offspring, but you can be pretty well assured that is will be close. There are a lot of check offs you can make to have an understanding of the true parents of each offspring.
This does not mean I am particularly sold on one type vs the other. For 2008 because I am using only two cocks for 6 hens in my breeding system they will be kept isolated in individual breeding cages.
If knowing who the actual parentage is important to you, then you will need individual cages or inclosures of some kind. If pedigrees are important for you, again seperate inclosures is required. If you are needing to observe which pairing is producing the goods and which is producing junk you will need the individual enclosures. If you are confident in all your breeders and the other things are not desired, then an open loft will do just fine.
Nick
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BigRiverRollerLofts
Last Edited by on Nov 14, 2007 6:06 PM
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RXR Loft
64 posts
Nov 14, 2007
7:24 PM
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Paul/Windjamer
here are some photos for a better idea..
these boxes are not all fancy like some, but do the job..
photo # 1 breeders locked up and doing the deed.
photo # 2 a look in side the breeder box
photo # 3 the door is open, to come and go.
photo # 4 the front panel is taken off, make it easer to push out the squab's
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Rudy
RxR Loft
Last Edited by on Nov 14, 2007 7:27 PM
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Fire Brewed Rollers
20 posts
Nov 14, 2007
7:30 PM
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The open loft system is a little easier to maintain, feed & water. You only fill 1 water bowl & 1 feed bowl. You scrap and clean only 1 pen. If your family is real close then not a big deal if 1 or 2 breed wrong. If you have different families then you have no guaranty to the breeding. I use individual pens but used open loft breeding for many years, it was a lot less time consuming. When I got Pedigreed birds then I set up individual pens so I know the Pedigrees are correct. Bottom line is how much time you can spend on the birds. If you can afford the time go for the individual pens.
Robert Miller
Fire Brewed Rollers
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Skylineloft
354 posts
Nov 14, 2007
7:37 PM
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I agree With Robert.
This is my breeding set up.
16 holes
Ray
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Ray
Breeding Quality Spinners,
"One Roller At A Time".
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spanky
82 posts
Nov 14, 2007
8:31 PM
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NICE SETUP RAY.
SPANKY
SGVS
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luis
321 posts
Nov 14, 2007
8:38 PM
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Ray do you keep any birds in there? LOL..Awful white and clean.Real nice Ray!Maybe someday i'll build one that nice.
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trevsta65
224 posts
Nov 14, 2007
8:39 PM
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ray i hate you lol .cheers trev
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Skylineloft
355 posts
Nov 14, 2007
9:28 PM
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Thanks for the comments,
You guys crack me up. Thats just after I built it. Sure glad I took photos. They crapped all over that nice white paint...lol. I sure like the set up though. It is working well. I can get in there and scrape everything down in 15 minuets, once a week. Easy clean up.
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Ray
Breeding Quality Spinners,
"One Roller At A Time".
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milan rollers
7 posts
Nov 15, 2007
2:37 AM
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hi breeding individualy is a good idea cos then you no xatly whats from what but it boils down to the amount of time you have feeding and watering them individualy.it is time consuming may b a good idea when you retire
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gotspin7
466 posts
Nov 15, 2007
4:41 AM
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I will chime in with Robert as well.
Nice set up Ray!
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Otis
81 posts
Nov 15, 2007
7:17 AM
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I also concur with Robert! I am a firm believer that IBP's are unhealthy and unnecessary, especially if you are dealing with a family of birds. Yes, I think it's bonafide overkill and takes away valuable time from our loved ones, that take care of us, so we can care for our birds! I have a few that are now abandoned, so I speak from experience. Pigeons are gregarious creatures that thrive in communal setups, are we out foxing ourselves to think that we are insuring proper parentage? Statistics show that illegitamacy rates are only 11% in most open loft setups (close to 1 out of 10 pair).I also believe the cocks in some families mind thier business when mating whilst other families have cocks or hens that attack any pair mating within thier vicinity! I used to have a family of birds like that with the end product being that it was difficult to get all pairs down at the same time for fostering out to pumpers! Look at how messy it is in the pics with the hens having to hold thier feces-why -because it's quite natural to eliminate outside the nestbox and holding in feces inhibits the fertilization process! Plus I'm not afraid of the results of a topping as I am strict as to what goes in the Breeding loft...JMO! Otis
Last Edited by on Nov 15, 2007 7:25 AM
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GREED FOR SPEED LOFT
227 posts
Nov 15, 2007
7:32 AM
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Ray that is an awsome set up. It would make a lot of us envious LOL it does me.
R-Luna
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Windjammer Loft
36 posts
Nov 15, 2007
5:04 PM
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Thanks for all your in-put. Ray, the set-up I have in my one breeding room is simular to what you have. So, I guess Iam not too far off track
Thanks again
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Fly High and Roll On
Paul
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Windjammer Loft
37 posts
Nov 15, 2007
5:05 PM
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Thanks for all your in-put. Ray, the set-up I have in my one breeding room is simular to what you have. So, I guess Iam not too far off track. Basically I do use an open loft set-up at times.
Thanks again
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Fly High and Roll On
Paul
Last Edited by on Nov 15, 2007 5:06 PM
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Missouri-Flyer
938 posts
Nov 15, 2007
6:58 PM
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Open loft versus Indy pen breeding has been kicked around many, many times. There are those that feel that it is the worst way to go, because of the doubt that could arise, and those, like myself that breed open and would never do Indy pen breeding. I would love to see some type of facts, a real study, that showed some type of percentage wise of cocks treading other hens..I have never seen it in my loft.
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Jerry
Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
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3757
252 posts
Nov 16, 2007
3:10 AM
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There is tons of research on other birds and animals regarding infidelity and selective breeding. In Quinn's original genetics book he goes in detail on the subject also. I will search for my old copy and post his findings. My father pointed out to me in the early 70's regarding infidelity in an open loft and I have bred in individual pens ever since. The argument of time, and cleanliness is only an opinion as individual pens are easier to clean with my set up (especially with an automatic water system). Selective breeding has nothing to do with pedigree. If a person is pedigree breeding he or she does not know anything about rollers or genetics. Below is an example of studies among wild wren. Many individuals, who breed open loft, and has a truly great producer will put this bird in an individual pen. Why? I think everyone knows the answer.
DISPERSAL, PHILOPATRY, AND INFIDELITY: DISSECTING LOCAL GENETIC STRUCTURE IN SUPERB FAIRY-WRENS (MALURUS CYANEUS)
M. C. DoubleA, R. PeakallA, B, N. R. BeckA, and A. CockburnA
A. School of Botany and Zoology, The Australian National University, Canberra, Australian Capital Territory 0200, Australia, B. E-mail: rod.peakall;caanu.edu.au
Dispersal influences evolution, demography, and social characteristics but is generally difficult to study. Here we combine long-term demographic data from an intensively studied population of superb fairy-wrens (Malurus cyaneus) and multivariate spatial autocorrelation analyses of microsatellite genotypes to describe dispersal behavior in this species. The demographic data revealed: (1) sex-biased dispersal: almost all individuals that dispersed into the study area over an eight-year period were female (93%; n = 153); (2) high rates of extragroup infidelity (66% of offspring), which also facilitated local gene dispersal; and (3) skewed lifetime reproductive success in both males and females. These data led to three expectations concerning the patterns of fine-scale genetic structure: (1) little or no spatial genetic autocorrelation among females, (2) positive spatial genetic autocorrelation among males, and (3) a heterogeneous genetic landscape. Global autocorrelation analysis of the genotypes present in the study population confirmed the first two expectations. A novel two-dimensional local autocorrelation analysis confirmed the third and provided new insight into the patterns of genetic structure across the two-dimensional landscape. We highlight the potential of autocorrelation analysis to infer evolutionary processes but also emphasize that genetic patterns in space cannot be fully understood without an appropriate and intensive sampling regime and detailed knowledge of the individuals genotyped.
Keywords: Cooperative breeding, dispersal, extrapair paternity, multivariate spatial autocorrelation
Received: March 11, 2004; Accepted: November 30, 2004
Last Edited by on Nov 16, 2007 3:18 AM
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elopez
62 posts
Nov 16, 2007
6:37 PM
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Great set up Ray.
Robert - well said!
Efren
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quickspin
649 posts
May 27, 2008
8:17 PM
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Nice Setup
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SALAS LOFT
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