richard.r
46 posts
Nov 17, 2007
4:46 PM
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In the late 1990's monty Neibel was a house guest of mind for 3 days one of the best advice,suggestions he mention to me was NEVER BREED FROM ROLL DOWNS. Or unstable pigeons. That in all the years that he been around the world oberveing kit's scrutinize the breeders that grasp 5 pigeons under each arm to hand throw.Monty said that no matter how many comp, win's or points they accumulated he would NEVER breed from that type of performer also he told me there;s no short cut's BREED from sound stable birds and your on your way to breed more high percentage's. Man was MR. NEIBEL RIGHT. The past 5-years that's what i'v been doing, not easy but worth it.Man do i miss him
"The Knockout Strain "
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nicksiders
2497 posts
Nov 17, 2007
5:24 PM
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Makes sense to me and I ain't no Monty. May habve been the best flyer ever.
Nick
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BigRiverRollerLofts
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3757
259 posts
Nov 17, 2007
5:24 PM
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Richard - My mentor Bruce Cooper loved Monty and respected him dearly. This was good advice Monty gave you and I think one thing that some have forgotten today and that is soundness. A bird has to be sound. Did you ever use any of Monty's stock?
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ROLLERMAN
173 posts
Nov 17, 2007
5:41 PM
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Is there not a rule in the world cup fly or nbrc fly that you cant hand toss a bird ???
al
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1878 posts
Nov 17, 2007
6:25 PM
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I've seen birds hand-tossed like that, I've done it. I don't do it anymore, a bird not stable enough to leave the kit box without crashing, is not something I want to breed from.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
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CSRA
494 posts
Nov 17, 2007
7:12 PM
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I will do it if i have to i have done it and will do it on the day of the big fly to take precautions i see this might be a problem for others but to each its on you have to understand there are a lot of variables to look out for for instance a young bird just learning how to roll and the bop have ate all your matured birds so u have to fly young birds that are not quite ready fo the comp
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richard.r
49 posts
Nov 17, 2007
7:30 PM
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3757 no to having Monty's stock, but latly i'v been reading all of monty's old writings i can get my hands on. The old I.R.A. magazines roller journals ect; man was head of the times!
"The knockout Strain"
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Gregg
281 posts
Nov 17, 2007
8:09 PM
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Interesting comments. I just got back this evening from the Danville, Iowa show which the Central Roller Club helps host every year. It is a chance for guys to show their performers, raise money for the club and a great BS session.
I bought a basket for just the purpose of releasing birds away from the loft as my kit pens are all located in my loft and my kit doors are all up high to avoid vermin, two and four legged. My thinking is that with this I will be able to release kit birds away from the loft, especially kit birds that I value. I don't think that is a violation of any rules.
On the other hand, I agree that hand tossing because a bird is too hot is a waste of effort. It should have been eliminated from the kit before it got that far. The only reason I hand toss birds is when I want to evaluate individual birds that I have had trouble identifying in the kit. Such as five dark blue checks. So I will then fly one at a time with lighter birds.
Gregg.
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Skylineloft
378 posts
Nov 17, 2007
8:30 PM
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Where I live there is allot of concrete. Because of this I might hand toss a bird or two that is on the deep side. It is a common practice in the city and I see no problem with it.
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Ray
Breeding Quality Spinners,
"One Roller At A Time".
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Santandercol
1650 posts
Nov 17, 2007
8:53 PM
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A bird that can't get up WITH the kit by itself without bumping isn't A-Team material IMO.Worth keeping as an individual performer,sure.But not a breeder.
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Kel.
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crystalpalace
187 posts
Nov 17, 2007
10:22 PM
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The advice that Monty Niebal gave you was very good. Stick with it and you will never regret it. Ray
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richard.r
51 posts
Nov 17, 2007
11:54 PM
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I mean no disrespect to no one this is hobby for everyone to do what they want in there back yard !!!!!!!!!!!! HAVE FUN!
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bman
495 posts
Nov 18, 2007
3:34 AM
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For me I see it as putting a bandage on the problem,it doesn't fix anything.A couple of my best young birds became chronic bumpers when landing this year.
They are no longer here.
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Ron
Borderline lofts
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
1155 posts
Nov 18, 2007
3:52 AM
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Ron.Was it a fault in the bird from its breeding or was it the fault of poor management? Sometimes we try to push young birds to fast and their body hasn't matured enough yet.David
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gotspin7
477 posts
Nov 18, 2007
6:12 AM
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Richard, did he tell you a specific age? Or just any bird that did it period? I have had birds when first coming into the roll do that and as soon as they mature they are no problem! Good post Richard!
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bman
496 posts
Nov 18, 2007
7:15 AM
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David, both were this years birds.I don't beleive management played into it but that is always a possibility.
My take on it is they were both 20-25 footers regardless of what height they were flying. Never hit coming out only when the kit was making low passes getting ready to land.If they came in alone or with just a few birds they seemed to be ok but when in a large kit (15-20) they try to roll and hit. I tried resting them and feeding them up but it didn't help. I couldn't let them continue to injure themselves.
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Ron
Borderline lofts
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Velo99
1395 posts
Nov 18, 2007
7:17 AM
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Rich,
I hear you bro. Third season is up now and I still have a lot of work to do in the breeder loft.
Breeding is like a layer cake. When you start breeding the one thing you`re looking for is numbers. If it kits and doesn`t hit the ground too hard it`s in. We can actually move birds from one box to another because we have achieved the correct number of participants.
As we progress we look more to the sky,the standard and more successful fanciers to fine tune our programs. Since we have the boxes full,we can actually remove birds that don`t fulfill the goals we care to achieve. What is "standard" this season might be a removable offense next season. We are adding layer after layer to our personal standard increasing it to meet the actual standard and beyond. That`s how the breed progresses. Careful selection from careful breeders.
yits g/l
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V99
Flippin`The Bird!
http://www.bluedotloft.50megs.com
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bman
497 posts
Nov 18, 2007
7:30 AM
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Kenny,you pretty well sum it up.I getting ready to start my third year and although I am light years behind where I thought I be I beleive I have what is needed in the breeder loft. It just seems painstakingly slow at times.
I often feel like I am trying to pick the fly "crap" out of the pepper.lol
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Ron
Borderline lofts
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richard.r
52 posts
Nov 18, 2007
9:36 AM
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Sal, Hello! well you guy's monty said that no specific age at all, he would not tolerate that problem. he said also said to keep your head in the game. Concentrate on the rest of are birds in your kit boxes.Also as we try to make faster birds there's going to problems it's a fine line with these birds.
Last Edited by on Nov 19, 2007 6:18 AM
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gotspin7
488 posts
Nov 18, 2007
10:02 AM
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Richard, What's up! Richard, thanks for the info!
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bman
498 posts
Nov 19, 2007
5:04 AM
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BUMP
Hey guys, how about a little more feed back on my post #496
Thanks
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Ron
Borderline lofts
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1881 posts
Nov 19, 2007
6:20 AM
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Hey Ron, I will comment on this for you.
You indicated that they drop 20-25 feet regardless of the height. This is what goes through my mind on this:
1. The birds are still young and stressed by the management/training process (feed, conditioning, etc) it reaches a peak when coming in to land and because…
2. They are still figuring out the roll and do not have a handle on it, they do what they only know to do when excited and in the presence of their kit mates; roll for 20 to 25 feet.
You have a couple options in which a solution may be found:
1: Don’t fly them as much, give them a day or 2 rest between
release
2: Give them a slightly larger feed ration
The idea here is you are alleviating some of the stress factors in their maturation process.
However, you indicated you tried this already, so, depending on what you want from your efforts, it is time to cull them.
Sure, there might be some tricks and gyrations you can try and get them straight, but do you really want this trait popping up in your birds on a regular basis?
Why divert your time and efforts from the good birds to save a couple of very questionable birds that are not demonstrating “control” (Primary Trait 4)?
Do you really want a small percentage of your birds (2 in this case) consuming so much of your limited time and efforts when the other kit birds would stand to benefit more?
My advice would be to make better use of your time and efforts on the ones doing it right. Those 2 sound like roll-downs to me and will not move your program forward. Hope this helps.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
Last Edited by on Nov 19, 2007 6:22 AM
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J_Star
1280 posts
Nov 19, 2007
7:04 AM
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Ron, the advice that Tony provided is sound but the young birds that exhibit that performance can be corrected in most cases. They become chronic bumpers due to their excitements coming down for feeding time because their extreme hunger but you can shut it down for awhile while they mature a bit and get their control back. You can accomplish that simply by providing them more protein in their feed. Usually rich pigeon mix will do the trick. They will become fast flyers for a week or so and shut down their rolling for that time to out grow their mishaps. If they are worth something to you, experiment with the rich feed for awhile and if they don’t correct, they will end up culling themselves.
Jay
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bman
499 posts
Nov 19, 2007
7:09 AM
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Thanks Tony,yes I went thru thru the rest & feed route.
I basically decided they weren't worth the effort,just wanted to hear someone else/s opinion.
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Ron
Borderline lofts
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