milan rollers
11 posts
Nov 20, 2007
6:24 AM
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i am of the strong opinion that deep rollers mess up the kit as it takes them longer to join back in to the kit do other fliers agree.
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ezeedad
49 posts
Nov 20, 2007
9:20 AM
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I agree that deep rollers will cost the people that fly these birds a lot of points in kit competition. But the best Birmingham Rollers... the ones that stand out in my mind are the deep ones...
The rules of kit competition should be modified somehow to allow these superior spinners to be flown without penalizing the flyer... I think that scoring should be continued as long as the bird is attempting to return to the kit.
Kit competition has always been at odds with the standard of the Birmingham roller, in that it descourages the flying of the deep spinners. This in turn discourages the production of deep spinners, which causes an overall lowering of the standard. This problem has been going on for as long as I have had rollers..
Paul Gomez
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3757
273 posts
Nov 20, 2007
9:48 AM
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Paul - I agree with you 100%.
LaRon
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GREED FOR SPEED LOFT
254 posts
Nov 20, 2007
10:14 AM
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Milan you are and they are right,they do hurt the kit competition .
Paul--@--3757--carbon copy for me
R-LUNA
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Deadendkid
57 posts
Nov 20, 2007
10:21 AM
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hey dad if you read the fly rules if a bird rolls out he is not out and scoring continues so deep birds dont hurt a kit unless they dont attempt to fly back to the kit i have seen alot of real deep birds roll and then they seperate from the kit and it looks as if they are scared to fly back into the kit birds that do that are CULLS
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J_Star
1286 posts
Nov 20, 2007
10:52 AM
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There is a fine line between deep and too deep. Deep birds still can come back to the kit in a short time, but too deep is just another fancy form of rolldowns. They are good for 11 bird fly and entertaining your audience.
Jay
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COYOTE33
5 posts
Nov 20, 2007
12:39 PM
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I would have to say im very discouraged by this subject
and everyone is entitled to their opinion, but can we say that deep spinning birds are a problem to a kit. Im a long time friend of Paul a good friend of LD and was a close
friend of Dick Stepens and we all have had this discussion in the past. I would really like to be apart of kit comp, but it seems i would have to eliminate my best
birds to do so. the birmingham roller is built for speed, performance and depth how can we eliminate one aspect.
that's like building a high performance race car and never
race it past a 1/4 mile. yes i've seen kit comp and it is a beautiful thing but to eliminate depth or deep spinners,
we're asking for trouble.If we are going to continue to go in this direction, make it two types of competition one for the shorter birds and one for the deeper birds.
wylie-coyote of Coyote Lofts
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CSRA
499 posts
Nov 20, 2007
12:40 PM
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i agree very stongly
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ezeedad
50 posts
Nov 20, 2007
1:07 PM
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Well said Coyote,
What Deadend says is good to see though.. but I even think that the deep ones that go right back to the kit and do it again and again should get bonus points...
I've always bred for individual performance.. I really want to focus my attention on my best spinners.. to see their quality.. A big turn is great to see, but so much is going on that I can't focus on many of the birds.
As for my preference I'd rather see one bird that I could call a champion..
Paul
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ezeedad
51 posts
Nov 20, 2007
1:13 PM
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JStar,
I think I have to agree with you too... Because there are a lot of times that a bird can show really good depth but it will eventually become a rolldown. A competitor that recognizes this can put that kind of bird into the competition with his fingers crosses hoping that this won't be the day that the bird crosses the line...
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Deadendkid
61 posts
Nov 20, 2007
1:14 PM
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dad i like deeeeeep birds too and i hope i breed some deep ones next year and i also like your qualmonds those birds look nice
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ICEMAN710
42 posts
Nov 20, 2007
2:03 PM
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paul, laron, wiley, your views are exactly the same as my fathers, when we raised rollers in the 80's . Those common views you share are what I was brought up on. I can recall clearly when I was younger My neighbor 3 blocks over flew rollers bred for competition, REAL frequent and shallow maybe 10-15 feet. I never understood that until latter years. Hi velocity, style, and depth are what my father tried improving in our rollers which I can say already had the goods. Memories... It was actually hard trying to get back in the hobby again, being dissapointed not seeing birds with the same standards as you guys and my father bred for, But it was just as well at the point in time, as life changes were on top of me. Im just glad im back in this wonderful hobby. OT its funny, my father still speaks of the same views on velocity, style and depth. He will live and die by it. I will definitly tell my father about this post, he'll get a kick!
Gary
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Gregg
286 posts
Nov 20, 2007
2:12 PM
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Jay,
I'm not even sure they belong in the eleven bird comp as two of those suckers that aren't immediately trying to get back and you may as well go get something to pour over the rocks as it will be the only solace you will get that day.
I love thirty foot and better. Doesn't mean that I don't appreciate a good twenty foot spinner, even fifteen if the bird is exceptionally fast, but I want all of them fast so I may as well have some depth also. But when they get over forty, they start getting into questionable territory in many lofts. Even in mine.
Gregg
Last Edited by on Nov 20, 2007 2:14 PM
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sundance
294 posts
Nov 20, 2007
3:38 PM
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I dont think the rules , so much , are against the use of the deep birds. Its really all about the time on the clock.
Deep birds cant score as often as the 10 or 15 footers. Its really just that simple. Shallower birds can rack up a lot of points if they are also frequent.
I can agree that an amendment to provide bonus points for the exceptionaly deep bird might be a good thing, but the bird must still come out of the roll clean and go straight back to the kit. Nothing looks as impressive as the exceptionaly deep bird.
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Butch @
Sundance Roller Lofts
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Donny James
119 posts
Nov 20, 2007
4:31 PM
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hay milan, i have agree with you but you have under stand to it take time for them to get back to the kit thats why you need shorter birds like 5 footer and 10 footer to keep the kit together if you have all deep birds your kit would be all over the sky...............donny james
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3757
274 posts
Nov 20, 2007
5:37 PM
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COYOTE - Well said.
Also, Iceman listen to your father he knows what he is talking about :)
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J_Star
1290 posts
Nov 20, 2007
5:48 PM
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Greg, I was just being nice. The majority of my birds are 20 to 30' with occasional one or two that do 35+. However, when I was over Cliff's in NC, I saw deeper birds that can hold it together and at Clay's I saw 80'. Although, the 80 footer kind was too deep to stay with the kit but the 40+ had no problem doing that. I measure the roll with the telephone poles, they are 40' in length. I would like to develop all my kit birds to the be 40+ feet deep. It is work in progress.
Jay
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Fire Brewed Rollers
22 posts
Nov 20, 2007
6:54 PM
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To make it fair and fly both shallow and deep birds in competition the judges need to score accordingly.
Depth, Quality & Score. Below is just an example for scoring depth.
Depth for 10 to 15 footers should = 1.0
Depth for 20 to 25 footers should = 1.5
Depth for 30 to 40 footers should = 2.0
Proper judging can make it fair to fly deep birds in a kit.
I always fly a couple 30’ footers in my kit. Everyone always picks out the deep birds when they say “That bird looks good” or “That’s a nice bird”. They don’t comment nearly as often for the 10 to 15 footers.
Robert Miller
Fire Brewed Rollers
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luis
331 posts
Nov 20, 2007
7:38 PM
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What is the deepest bird you guys have seen?I had a grizzle hen that got to deep and ended her days.Her last day she rolled over 100 ft fast!It was quite a sight but sad when i realized that she wasn't going to stop.
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COYOTE33
6 posts
Nov 20, 2007
9:51 PM
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Robert you are right on the money, the obvious is to look at the deeper bird, we naturally look at him/her because
they are the stand out.we also don't want to over look the
shorter bird but remember they are a team. when you look at a football game and the ball is snapped,your watching the running back run through that whole 20-30 yards deep,thats the first thing that catches your eye and you say wow! its the same with a kit of birds, somebody is going deep! (but both are apart of the team).
wylie-coyote
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gotspin7
514 posts
Nov 21, 2007
5:26 AM
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Fellas! Deeper birds are usually the stand-outs! I am talking 30-40 footers! I have also had some super fast 20 footers!You also do not want to go to deep becuase then the roll starts to slow down!
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Fire Brewed Rollers
23 posts
Nov 21, 2007
11:02 AM
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There are some very interesting things you get from deep/deep birds. I have breed a lot over the years and a lot of roll downs.
You can get birds that are fast for up too 200 to 250 feet and be good birds. The deep birds I have today do go back to Bob Scott from Hector Coya.
1. Some do very good, most turn into roll downs.
2. The 75 to 100 footers are what work out the best that is about the limit to survive long term. When they come into the roll and hit 2 to 4 times they learn not to roll under 300’ those turn into the good ones.
3. You get some birds that will roll 1000’ they are slow birds and they do pull out.
3. You get birds that roll 250 to 300’ feet then slow to ¼ speed for 50’ to 75’ and stop flapping while holding there wings out trying to pull out, pull out and fly straight in a daze for 200’ before going back up. These don’t return after a few deep rolls.
4. You get 75’ footers that will return to the kit right away.
5. You get birds that roll 500 to 600’ or more and you never see them again.
6. You get 50 foot birds that will roll down to the ground, pull out and land at the end of the roll, set there for 10 to 20 seconds and take off. They will do it over and over.
7. Most of the birds only roll 4 to5 times in 30 minutes.
8. These birds are not good kit birds; they don’t roll together at all.
9. The deep/deep birds that you turn into breeders don’t normally ever make it back flying again.
10. You get birds that after hitting never want to fly again.
I keep a few roll downs, yes it is a fault, and what faults in birds do you keep?? Every bird is not perfect; most people have some birds with minor faults. The only fault I won’t keep is a none kitting bird.
I am not limited for room so I can keep as many birds as I want. I also have 6 kit boxes.
I now only breed for good kitting birds that roll 15 to 40 feet with speed and frequency.
Robert Miller
Fire Brewed Rollers
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elopez
70 posts
Nov 21, 2007
12:49 PM
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I have a bird like quickspin and it was only 4 months. Rolled from a Dot and stopped around 100' from the ground. This bird did this a few times but has been hitting from a much lower height. Although I do enjoy the show it puts on, it is considered a cull to me as it has no use in my kit. This bird is a jammed up white heat bloodline.
I'm not into the 5-10' rollers unless they are extreme spinners. I like them on the deep side although I think I breed more this season on the shorter side (20'). My ultimate goal would be to have a kit of 30'-40' spinners.
Efren
Last Edited by on Nov 21, 2007 12:56 PM
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Missouri-Flyer
975 posts
Nov 21, 2007
12:59 PM
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Robert,
your post made my eyes go WOW!!!!!!!
Alot of different depths spoken about there..1000'?..Never seen it and be able to pull out..Maybe my depth perception is way off..Maybe when I say 20', maybe I mean 200'.
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Jerry
Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
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gotspin7
530 posts
Nov 21, 2007
4:51 PM
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Jerry, when I was a kid I had some of the old 1220 birds and they would go that deep!100 to 500 feet!!LOL, and I loved them!And being a kid I did not put up the right ones and later made them all into roll downs!LOL, a learning experience!
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Missouri-Flyer
979 posts
Nov 21, 2007
9:54 PM
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Sal,
I have bred birds that would do 100', but never seen one go 1000' and still live..Heck, my birds wont fly 1000'.
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Jerry
Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
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hectorvicki2003@yaho
66 posts
Nov 21, 2007
10:20 PM
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Yes jerry
i have birds that have rolled 1000 ft and broke out of it.
most are from the 1220 line.
i dont get them often but they do exist. You just got to get some Bob Scott stuff. LOL
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Hector Coya
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COYOTE33
8 posts
Nov 21, 2007
10:52 PM
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HEY! HECTOR, JUST A QUICK QUESTION. THESE BIRDS THAT
ROLL A 1000FT ARE THEY ROLLING IN PERFECT STYLE?
COYOTE
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quickspin
136 posts
Nov 21, 2007
11:04 PM
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perfect style as in the quality of the spin? My birds that are deep stay with good quality under 40 feet. More than that usually the wing will change. But they are fast the whole way that is for sure.
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gotspin7
545 posts
Nov 22, 2007
5:14 AM
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Jerry,that blood line flew to the dot as they call it in Cali! Jerry they would drop pretty deep! The quality of roll was pretty tight! These were no spinners they were pretty rollers! Jerry I only saw a couple do 1000 feet and live but they did not live long!LOL, SPLAT!!!!!!!!
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hectorvicki2003@yaho
67 posts
Nov 22, 2007
5:23 AM
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That might be true,but they sure are a prety sight to wach.
I agree the Quality is compromized after a while.You can see them trying to pull out sometimes.
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Hector Coya
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gotspin7
548 posts
Nov 22, 2007
5:50 AM
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Hector, I will be honest with you I enjoyed them! Hector you know that when they are going that deep they are more prone to have a accident! I have a question for you Hector all of yours hold it?
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Missouri-Flyer
980 posts
Nov 22, 2007
6:01 AM
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Understood Sal,Hector
At 1000' tho, there has to be little or no quality to the actual spin..Not saying there aren't some that can spin right at 1000', but the odds are against seeing birds roll that deep that do it half right.
I have seen a few that rolled that deep that splattered, and while coming down, it was a show....
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Jerry
Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
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hectorvicki2003@yaho
68 posts
Nov 22, 2007
7:33 AM
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Gotspin
ofcorse not but i had 3 this year that where probably a few hundred ft,i sold them to bigginers,they love them,i cant use them in my kit.
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Hector Coya
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quickspin
140 posts
Nov 22, 2007
8:39 AM
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My friend only had Bob Scott birds he purchase them back in 97. He had one bird that was pure white self he would roll in the 100 feet or more but every 2 minutes. This bird never hit and had control. This bird was not fast just a roller. I couldn't believe that this bird had control he would only roll the depth he wanted depending how high he was.
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Fire Brewed Rollers
24 posts
Nov 22, 2007
8:59 AM
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Its amazing that today everyone wants the birds that roll 15 to 40' and then look at all the talk a 100' plus bird can generate. It still shows that one thing we can all remember is that pin dot coming down if you get to see one.
One other thing I never forget was my first roll down, a Red Hen with white flights, rolled down from just above a telephone pole, about 60' and at 14 that was a real lose.
Robert Miller
Fire Brewed Rollers
Last Edited by on Nov 22, 2007 7:59 PM
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gotspin7
552 posts
Nov 22, 2007
11:30 AM
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Jerry after the first 100 feet that quality of roll goes out the window!LOL, Jerry these birds are really very slow roller a fast roller or a spinner would never hold on such depth!
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hectorvicki2003@yaho
74 posts
Nov 22, 2007
12:23 PM
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Dont ever say never,say most of the time.
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Hector Coya
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gotspin7
553 posts
Nov 22, 2007
1:39 PM
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Hector, I have never seen one pull of a 100 footer with good style or speed, Hector if yours are doing it that is great! Next time I am in Cali. visiting family and friends I would love to see yout pigeons fly!
Last Edited by on Nov 22, 2007 1:56 PM
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hectorvicki2003@yaho
77 posts
Nov 22, 2007
1:59 PM
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When ever your in So,Cal,your welcome to come over.Call me (909) 592-8777
I dont have much of a kit right now,i just fed the hawk about an hour ago.
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Hector Coya
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quickspin
142 posts
Nov 22, 2007
3:07 PM
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Hector,
Lock those bird out, don't let the BOP have a good Thanksgiving Day.
Sal, email me when you are over here also just after March so you can see them.
Last Edited by on Nov 22, 2007 3:08 PM
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Missouri-Flyer
989 posts
Nov 22, 2007
6:23 PM
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my thoughts exactly Sal..
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Jerry
Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
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gotspin7
559 posts
Nov 23, 2007
11:57 AM
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Will do fellas! Thanks!
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