fhtfire
1183 posts
Nov 20, 2007
10:20 AM
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DON'T RAISE BIRDS FOR THE PREDS....I really do think that the problem with preds is also our own fault. We breed hundreds of birds to feed the preds...that is just plain stupid....We also let Cull kits out to feed the preds first.....all you are doing is telling the BOP to hang around. Animals are controled by two things....FOOD AND WATER....obviously we can't control the water...but we can control the food. If food moves the animals move. It is that simple.
I can't stand to hear people say...that I have lost 35 birds in a month or whatever....LOCK THEM DOWN...trust me the Raptors will move on.
I live in Cali too...and they are all over my neck of the woods and I rarely lose a bird....My development and teamwork has not suffered by locking down for long periods.
It is easy...if you have a lot of BOP...lock down for a month....then let out a kit...you may have to lock down longer...but once you break they cycle it is over....they will move on.....a loss here and there is normal...sometimes passer buys will get some lunch...It is no brain surgery guys.......We complain...but we are part of the problem.
If you live close to guys...who fly...make sure you are all on the same page....so the birds don't hang around because your buddy is feeding them....just try it and see what happens....
We are our own worst enemy.....keep feeding them cull kits and young birds...so they can be nice and strong and feed those healthy baby BOP so they can come to the dinner bell too...
IF there is no food the Raptors get weak...weak BOP can't catch a pigeon....that simple....BOP are teedering on life and death.....quit feeding them and the teader
Don't bitch if you are part of the problem.
Paul
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Deadendkid
58 posts
Nov 20, 2007
10:29 AM
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if a person lets their birds out during the predator season then they are not doing their job of protecting their birds plain and simple as we all know our hobby is filled with alot of people that have no common sence if a person hasnt learned how to aviod predator attacks by know there is no hope for them
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fhtfire
1186 posts
Nov 20, 2007
10:35 AM
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See...even the kids understand this!!! the adults are the knuckle heads..LOL
rock and ROLL
Paul
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fhtfire
1187 posts
Nov 20, 2007
11:35 AM
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I understand what you are saying about the food source being wild birds...but wild birds are ALOT harder to catch then a roller...I doubt they will wipe out the bird population...but the weak hawks that only catch the roller as they main food source...may not even have the skill to catch a wild bird...because they may only know rollers....you will see when the BOP actually have to work to get there food...how fast they move on....or die out. Wild birds are smarter then you think...they have the survival mode built in....Take a commie pigeon..it is harder for a cooper to catch a commie that is for sure....
It will not take long...the HUNGER urge is STRONG...if they are hungry they will move on...especially the weak BOP that only know how to hunt easy pray.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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JMUrbon
294 posts
Nov 20, 2007
11:32 PM
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AS we all know by now the preditors are really only a problem certain monthes of the year. No one is saying to lock down intil the bop are starved out but rather till they migrate out for the season. Our job as managers is not only to train but also to help survive and that means keepeing them safe and not putting our own self need in front of theirs. They do us no good dead and even the best will eventually either get caught or ran off by the BOP if you countinue to play Russian Ruelette (sp.) with them.
Flying rollers can be one of the most rewarding hobbies out there today if you treat it like a hobby and not like a job. What I mean by that is a job has to be done daily. Hobbies don't. Nobody can advance their program by feeding the young each year to the BOP. I know the arguments and have heard them 1000 time. We raise them to fly so I will fly them, well if that is you then dont ever complain when the preditors get your best bird or worse yet run your entire kit off. I hear it all the time were someone is crying the blues over a lost bird or a lost kit when they are flying them in the heart of the BOP season. Lock them up or suffer the consequences but please keep it to yourself if you wish to pick that poison.
I fed kawks for 20 years befor I finally realized that I wasn't having any fun doing it. Now I enjoy looking forward to putting the birds back in the air each spring because I know there is going to be something to look forward to.
Give it a try guys. Joe Urbon
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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Shaun
544 posts
Nov 21, 2007
12:03 AM
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Paul, I've been keeping rollers since 2005 and my resident sparrowhawks ain't going anywhere. They were there when I started and they're still there now. There are plenty of other wild birds around - wood pigeons, doves and a host of everyday garden birds. These hawks are very adept at catching pretty much anything, as my neighbour watches a sparrowhawk often picking at a dead bird at the bottom of his garden. The truth is I've made the mistake in setting up shop in the midst of an established ecosystem with a balance between hawks and prey. In the summer, the female hawk is nesting. She's the problem. The male hawk is smaller and seeks much smaller food than rollers, whilst the pair are raising their young. Once the nesting season is over, the big, bad bitch comes out again and that's when my rollers are in for a torrid time. It doesn't matter if I lock them down for a day, a week or a month. As soon as I let them out, the female sparrowhawk will be on them and invariably gets one.
So, if I pack it all in, it's because I'm beginning to feel it's pointless looking after caged birds for six months of the year. But, I like it where I live, so moving isn't an option.
Shaun
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gotspin7
513 posts
Nov 21, 2007
5:19 AM
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I will chime in with JOE!
Shaun, sorry to hear that you might be hanging up the gloves! Good Luck!
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1895 posts
Nov 21, 2007
5:33 AM
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Wanted to link this thread to this one: BOP Solutions Debate: 3 Options Only
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
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kopetsa
2496 posts
Dec 08, 2008
7:20 PM
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EXCELLENT POST PAUL!!!!!!!!!!!
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Andrew Carmichael
AB Canada
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RodSD
94 posts
Dec 08, 2008
8:13 PM
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I wish it would be this easy! If you have resident hawk with established territory and doesn't migrate, it will still hit you. If it is migratory birds, then it may work. I have homers. I lock down a week after I get hit. After I release them around the second time, this resident hawk of mine comes back and hits me. So I lock down again and repeat the cycle. You might say then that I fly every other week. Thus far the hawk only got 2 of my birds and injured 2 or 3 and these are homers. I can't imagine if these were rollers. They probably will be dead. It doesn't help if the hawk lives next door among the trees.
Hawks are not stupid, too. They will find other prey to eat besides rollers. I think scientists found out that even though sharp-shinned hawk migration numbers declined, their population has increased apparently because they stayed put watching bird seeds feeders at people's homes.
I think locking down just minimizes our loss. I don't know whether it will lower hawks population.
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Bill C
143 posts
Dec 08, 2008
8:50 PM
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RodSD, I agree with you, the hawks are not leaving either way. I have all the birds locked down and have since middle of Oct. I let out a cull kit today and didnot have a hawk. 11 birds and they all flew and got back in. I have some young birds to fly but I want to make sure it is safe.
These hawks can live all winter on the wild pigeons and that is what they eat when not eating our rollers. I have seen them many times take a ferrel pigeon. I see a flock of 500-600 birds flying zig zag pattern and I know why the wild pigeons are doing that.
We would have to get rid of all those wild pigoens in our areas and then we would have a chance of getting them to migrate.
I understand where you are comming from Paul but its not just during the migration, its all winter now days. We talked about this last year or the year before. In the cities we have too many wild pigeons and they do catch them in winter because they have to, to survive.
I had cought a homming pigoen a few years back and called the guy. He said he took 80 birds to Roseville (20 miles away) and only had 30 return. Plus the one I gave him made 31. He said I was the only guy who returned a bird. ( those hommer guys do not want birds that get lost) Where are the other 49 birds he let out? My Moms neigbor gave her a pigeon and she gave it to me in the winter last year. It was injured by a hawk and it was a hommer with a band on it and it got returned to the guy in Esparto who is flying hommers.
So to be realistic about this problem, its not just locking up but getting rid of all the wild pigeons and then lock up and now you have a plan that will work. BillC
Last Edited by on Dec 08, 2008 8:53 PM
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fresnobirdman
280 posts
Dec 08, 2008
9:41 PM
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you are right paul!
~~Fresnobirdman~~
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fhtfire
1701 posts
Dec 08, 2008
10:10 PM
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I would also like to add to this post....of course Resident Hawks will keep up shop...but when the food source is not easy pickings you will see the birds move on to commie pigeons...and they are not that easy to catch compared to our rollers....
Here is my new thing that I have found....I also feel that not just locking the birds up...but have it to where the hawks cant see your birds....In years past I have left my loft open...and the hawks can see the birds through the chicken wire....this year I keep the loft all closed up so they cant see the pigeons....I have yet to lose a bird this year....usually about this time it is like pearl harbor.....Hawks everywhere....dont get me wrong....my birds will get chased on occasion but the hawks are not hanging around....they used to perch on the fences and sit there and watch the birds through the wire...now they cant see the birds...
So.....My feeling is the hawks see the rollers in the air....and they chase them...but that is it...they dont know where they are coming from....so they dont get a chance to ambush them at all....usually when I do get a hawk coming in the birds are well on the wing and the hawk gives chase and then moves on.....or hangs around...then the loft is closed up...and to the hawk...my loft is just another building.....now....My experiment is really working...I have been pretty much hawk free the last month or so.....and I have flown before and after storms as a test....nothing zip..
I think if your loft are open and your fly pens are open...the hawks just see a meal under glass...lol...display food.....Again...I used to have hawks sitting on the fence for hours looking at my birds.....or hanging on the wire......when it is covered up and they cant see the birds....out of site..out of mind....loft is open to fly and then closed up.....or I will open it up for an hour or so for some sunlight and then close it back up......just something I have been noticing and it was not on accident......
rock and ROLL
Paul
Since September....I have lost 1 bird to a hawk......last year it was like 8 or 9.....since locking down...this last month....I have yet to see a hawk come near the birds.....the birds are even calm now...anyway.....if you loft is open...cover with a tarp.....anything...out of sight...out of mind...
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2965 posts
Dec 09, 2008
3:05 AM
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Hey Paul, told ya hiding them works. Been doing it here for a long time now. Out of sight out of mind.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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pat66
239 posts
Dec 09, 2008
4:08 AM
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Pat
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spinner ball
34 posts
Dec 09, 2008
5:05 AM
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The BOP will get the birds no matter what you do.They are protected that is why they come arond.NOt that it is our fault everyone lives in a different area and the Bops will travel to servive.My place or your place they will always be back for the roller dinner.
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2966 posts
Dec 09, 2008
5:27 AM
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Hey spinnerball, you sound defeated. There are things that can be done to reduce or minimize their impact. Is anything 100%? No, except not flying at all. When I flew birds in Southern California from 1993 to 2005, everyone around the area always complained of losing so many birds to bop, I never did.
I can only conclude that the strategies I implemented helped me avoid the same losses. Will such efforts guarantee that no one will have problems? Certainly not. But since OHR, so many more flyers have learned to fly responsibly and lower losses. Don't give up trying to save your birds.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Last Edited by on Dec 09, 2008 5:28 AM
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Ballrollers
1622 posts
Dec 09, 2008
7:12 AM
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Paul,
You are on target with this post. We are our own worst enemy in this case. All these cute, wonderful Sun rooms/flight pens are nothing more than hawk magnets. One thing that may need more attention is what time is best for settling our young birds. It make little sense to plop 20 Yb's in a cage on the loft roof, when the BOPS are in the area. All we are doing is whetting their appetite for when we release these birds. It all depends on where you live and when is the earliest you can settle YB's and when are the hawks making the least impact on your area. I read where a high profile flyer in California was losing scores of birds to the hawks but still he flew several kits of birds every day. This type of flyer will not help our situation. We are simply training the hawks where and when to attack our kits. It is getting to the point some men may live in an area no longer suitable for flying birds, locking down is one of the best options available to us along with keeping, our birds from being seen while caged, by hawks. Each of us must do our part. Thanks for bring this up for discussion.
Cliff
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maxspin
329 posts
Dec 09, 2008
7:23 AM
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Paul,
There is a difference between a resident BOP issue and a migration BOP issue. I swear that I must live within eyesight of the nest site for a pair of falcons. It does not seem to matter how long I lock down. Last year I locked down the last young birds in December. When I started getting them ready for the World Cup in April it was as if I never stopped flying. Three months should be enough time to break a cycle.
Most of us who work have a set schedule that does not allow dramatic changes in the time we fly. I leave the house early in the morning, so can only fly in the afternoon or evening. Later is safer than early, but that only leaves a short time to fly.
I have also done away with the fly pen. I have mixed feeling on this as I think that it is healthier for the birds. My decision was made after seeing what happened to a flyer in the Portland area. He removed the wall on his breeder loft, and made it wire. The birds were healthy but he suddenly had a terrible cooper hawk problem. It was like a magnet that pulled them in.
I do not have a bad cooper hawk problem, but the peregrines KILL me.
Keith Maxwell
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2969 posts
Dec 09, 2008
7:56 AM
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Hey rottwieler, you posted that on this open forum? You must be asking for a visit. LOL Let me help you out and edit your post for you. LOL
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Last Edited by on Dec 09, 2008 7:59 AM
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rtwilliams
289 posts
Dec 09, 2008
7:59 AM
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As long as we supply food we are going to have a BOP problem. I find it interesting that no one has commented on removing habitat to get rid of their BOP. They have to perch and nest somewhere. If it possible to move those areas away from you, you should see less action.
The other part of habitat is protection from predators. What can you do in your area to bring in BOP predators? I know that the bigger hawks and Eagles have a harder time catching rollers. Bring them into your area and they may run off your falcon, sparrow hawk, etc. And it is probably easier to fly with these larger slower BOPS.
I am Lucky; I work as a Park ranger at Starvation State Park in Utah. We have manipulated the habitat around here for Osprey. Osprey nest in open areas, usually on top of dead trees. The young are very susceptible to BOP attacks in the nest. I believe that because of this the Osprey run a lot the other BOP’s off. I have little to no BOP problem from May through Sept. that is when they are nesting near my house. A mile away from my house I can count numerous BOP’s of every type.
If owners of pigeon would and could, manipulate the habitat around their homes for other, more manageable BOP’s you could see a decline in your attacks. It would take some research for you would have to invite a species that actually already exists in your area. Owls could be an option. I have heard some have success flying with crows around.
Just a thought
These other suggestion should also be utilized. I was attacked yesterday. My birds will not fly for at least a week. I am hoping for snow to to push the SOB away.
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RT Williams
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redchecker16
229 posts
Dec 09, 2008
9:50 AM
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Great Post FHTfire,Great views Fellas Redchecker16
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rottweiler
53 posts
Dec 09, 2008
10:44 AM
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i am a yorkshire man and say what i like/ and like what i say lolllllllll
thanks for the edit
good luck with the bop problem
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Windjammer Loft
581 posts
Dec 09, 2008
12:50 PM
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rottweiler....where I live their is an abundance of trees in which the BOP nest in....Are YOU saying to cut down all the trees.....Get Real man...
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Fly High and Roll On
Paul
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rottweiler
55 posts
Dec 09, 2008
1:15 PM
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no just the one will do if its the one in use lollllllll
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mario
GOLD MEMBER
282 posts
Dec 09, 2008
2:17 PM
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Very good post ......and i do like Paul.as soon as they hit me three times in a row ..thats it for me ,i love my goods birds too much to feed those .....i won t said it .............Mario
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RodSD
100 posts
Dec 10, 2008
12:14 AM
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Hey Paul,
Thanks for the tip on covering the loft. I did notice several times when a hawk perched on top of the fence looking at my loft because it can see my pigeons on those screens. It was like a staring competition between the hawk and my homers.
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Mayo
48 posts
Dec 10, 2008
1:34 AM
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Hey Guys dont forget about all the other things we might have runnning around the yard atracting BOPs. Gamefowl, the Barn yard chickens, Ducks,Geese and Turkeys that some of us like to also keep around because we like them..... they are also magnets that bring BOPs to the location .. I know I've seen it. It may not be the adults of these Fowl,But the offspring are small prey for Air Sharks, MaYo P.S Bob white quail and pheasents are the worst out in the open for the atraction of these bop!
Last Edited by on Dec 10, 2008 6:42 AM
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Pumpkin Man
34 posts
Dec 10, 2008
10:22 AM
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I tend to agree with what Paul is saying, of course some flyers have it worse than others. I fly as soon the sun comes up to make enough light to see, hoping the Bops are still on the roost - and I've had good results. I also train birds to trap fast, they can't lounge around on top of the kit box or garage. Since I'm only flying one kit per morning it helps too. multiple kits would be much more difficult.
Something else I haven't seen anyone mention on here, but I have seen in some pastured poultry producers set-ups is what they call 'Hawk Lines' these are basically two criss-crossed clothes line cords suspended over top of their chicken pens that are supported by four posts on the corners. It's probably not practical for most flyers but may be something to consider in some situations. These chicken producers claim that the crossed lines affect the approaching BOPs vision and when they approach to attack they will flare off as they approach the lines. I haven't tried it but some say they help.
-Billy Holleran
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