Deadendkid
92 posts
Nov 23, 2007
2:47 PM
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how does genitics effect performance i read how alot of people know alot about genitics but does it improve performance i want to buy a book but dont know if a flying book is better then a genitics book help me out guys
Last Edited by on Nov 23, 2007 2:59 PM
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
1171 posts
Nov 23, 2007
3:13 PM
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Learn how to feed and fly your kits for performance first.Genetics is another whole learning experience.Good to know but it won't help much in getting the best performance from you birds.David
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lionel
43 posts
Nov 23, 2007
3:50 PM
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I’m interested also - can you guys recommend any books?
Thanks, Well appreciated
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Lionel
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gotspin7
569 posts
Nov 23, 2007
4:00 PM
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I read the pensom book every day for a couple of years!LOL, I also liked the true spinners 2 book!
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hectorvicki2003@yaho
83 posts
Nov 23, 2007
4:36 PM
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Genetics has everything to do with it,if the birds dont have roll in their genes it dont matter what you feed them.
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Hector Coya
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Deadendkid
97 posts
Nov 24, 2007
1:19 AM
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hector so what your saying is that if a bird has genes that roll then he will pass that on to his offsprings
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Missouri-Flyer
1002 posts
Nov 24, 2007
1:38 AM
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Yep Kid,
Hector said it, and its the truth.
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Jerry
Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
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GREED FOR SPEED LOFT
258 posts
Nov 24, 2007
6:21 AM
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Kid ,Hector hit it .If you dont have that quality your looking for in your birds ,how are you going to have it or obtain it. Developing your birds or family, some what does take some enginnering also,
R- LUNA
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ezeedad
65 posts
Nov 24, 2007
10:54 AM
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Hey Kid..!! When I saw this heading I said.."WHAT..??" and I mean I said it outloud..!! And I'm not crazy... at least not in my opinion.. And I thought GENETICS HAS EVERYTHING TO DO WITH PERFORMANCE...
So when I opened up the thread I see that Hector Coya already had said it... and Richard had cosigned it.
I'll try to give you a partial explanation of why...
There are certain genes that we are aiming for in the cultivation of our breed that are recessive genes. So these genes don't show up unless the bird has gotten one from each parent. The more correct pairings of genes a bird has, the better it will be.. all other factors aside..such as training & feeding.
So if we want to get these recessive genes paired up as much as possible, the most efficient way is to mate close relatives together...because they are genetically more similar..
The dominant genes are important too, but we don't have to wory about those as much..because they don't need much help...
This is why the way Pensom suggests in his book..(in the chapter on Inbreeding)..works so well.
Paul G
Last Edited by on Nov 24, 2007 10:55 AM
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3757
289 posts
Nov 24, 2007
12:57 PM
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Paul right on the money! This is what I was talking about in an old thread regarding high velocity spin. It has to be in the genotype and guys there are some strains that just do not have the capabilities to produce high velocity.
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
1176 posts
Nov 24, 2007
1:14 PM
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You said: and guys there are some strains that just do not have the capabilities to produce high velocity.
You are not going to find the answer to that in any book. David
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donb
37 posts
Nov 24, 2007
4:35 PM
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I agree, genetics has everything to do with performance but color does not affect it. While we are on the subject i want to toss out something. On the gene (or genes ) for rolling I think maybe its a cumulative thing- the more of that gene u have the more roll u get. Sorta like 1 gene would give a single flip and say 10 would give u a rolldown. Mendell found that cumulative effect in the genes for color in Poppies ( flowers) few genes a lite pink and several made them red. What do u guys think on the roll gene ?? DB.
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Deadendkid
99 posts
Nov 24, 2007
5:20 PM
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thanks guys for the help with this subject
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Alan Bliven
378 posts
Nov 24, 2007
6:28 PM
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I think you are on to something there Don... I have always believed a Parlor Roller was simply an extreme roll-down with an over abundance of the ro genes.
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Alan
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Fire Brewed Rollers
26 posts
Nov 24, 2007
8:02 PM
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Every thing the bird has comes from the Genes, Color, Speed, Velocity, Depth, and Size, to name a few, plus all the faults are carried in the genes. So whatever you want to have or get it must be in the genes to start with.
The Genetic Books will explain how to get all the colors and color patterns that you want.
The Genetic Books won’t tell how to get good rollers, like getting good velocity, speed or depth.
The Roller Books explain a lot more on getting the proper roll you are looking for. But remember it has to be in the genes for it to appear. They explain best to best and so on.
Pensom book has all the basics from start to finish, all aspects you need to start with.
The other entire collection of books explains how to dial in on some aspect that is in the Pensom book.
In my opinion it is best to get the Pensom book first. (All the basics)
The Birmingham Roller Pigeon > by William Pensom
Then get any of the other Roller books.
True Spinning Roller II > David Kowalski
Winners with Spinners > by Graham Dexter
How to Breed Better Rollers > by Tony Chavarria
Key to Flying Competition Rollers > by Tom Hatcher
Genetic Book
Breeding and Inheritance in Pigeon > by Axel Sell
Hope this helps some
Robert Miller
Fire Brewed Rollers
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gotspin7
591 posts
Nov 25, 2007
5:23 AM
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Laron, what strains do you beleive do not throw spin?
Fire, good post!
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
1178 posts
Nov 25, 2007
6:25 AM
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Robert.Excellent post.It made me smile.What so many don't understand is the Genetic package of their roller is already in front of them.All we have to do is bring out what is already in place.Learn the bird and what makes it tick and the battle is won.
Don.Interesting thought.I know that it takes the RO gene from both parents for it to roll but but you might be on to something here.Another question I have wondered about is why do some only go 10 feet while another will do 50 feet.I have had this happen from the same pair of rollers many times.And it has always been a Cock.I am a firm believer that the Cock determines depth in a mating.My opinion.
For most of us we will never know what makes them do what they do.I just hope to have several more years enjoying the good ones I do raise.LOL. David
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3757
291 posts
Nov 25, 2007
7:06 AM
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Robert - That was a good post.
Gotspin - Let me tell you a story without naming names. A friend of mine has had a particular strain for 20 years. Every year to this day out of 100 birds he still gets 1-2 to perform. This family is seldom, late, only breeds birds that roll (no spinners) and breeds tons of non performance. He is very educated and knows Quinns genetics book like the back of his hand (He majored in Biology and Chemist as a double major). He only stocks the performers but he still has the same problem and they do not spin but just roll. Yes, we all know he should get another family but he is trying to prove to me that he will get one to spin with high velocity and it has not happened yet. Now, he has another family of birds but they rip. This family was bred for high velocity spin and this is what he gets. If it were so easy to just come out of the birds (high velocity and great style) it would be abundant. I always ask individuals what do you breed for and almost always they do not know. Answers like I want to win the world cup do not tell me what you are breeding for in your birds. Birds may be rolling with the wings out looking like dishrags and if that individual continues to breed from birds like this he or she will only get out of them what went in.
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Velo99
1422 posts
Nov 25, 2007
7:34 AM
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Heres one for you.
Are we breeding for roll or control?
If all rollers have the roll gene,are we breeding them to a certain degree of control of that trait? Along with that control should come style and quality. Which in turn contribute to the aerodynamic and centrifugal forces that make up the velocity of the roll. In turn this could contribute to the ease with which the bird controls the sleeker higher velocity roll versus a sloppier out of kilter roll. Type,feather and character.They all contribute to the overall performance of a roller.
One isn`t any more important than the other. Each is a genetic trait with which we can influence this balance through our programs by selective breeding.
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V99
Flippin`The Bird!
http://www.bluedotloft.50megs.com
Last Edited by on Nov 25, 2007 7:37 AM
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gotspin7
596 posts
Nov 25, 2007
10:21 AM
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3757, I understand what you are saying but you said strains and that is what braught my question! I will tell you this I have bred birds out of different families and most will throw you stiffs, tumblers, rollers and a few spinners , and I know you know the difference that is what braught my post earlier in the weeks past were I asked about percentages and I was honestly surprised you did not respond, so I will ask you now how many spinners do you produce a year out of your family? 3757 what are your percentages?
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3757
296 posts
Nov 25, 2007
11:48 AM
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Gotspin - I thought I answered this to you in the e-mail weeks ago but I will expand again. To give an idea of what I am talking about in percentages I will explain it in the 1-10 system that I use. Any bird that is a 5 -10 is but a common roller. Everyone, no matter what strain they have produce these. A number four is what will knock most roller fanciers on their butts. I raise plenty of these each year from my Bruce Cooper stock and Herb Sparkes stock around 60 percent. A number three is when the bird spins so fast and is in the shrinking category. These pigeons do not show any wings and stand still for the first two seconds and drop slowly for twenty to twenty five feet max. I do raise three's and I usually will get a few birds like this a year 20 percent. A number two is a pigeon that starts off in the shrink and turns to a marble that does not lose altitude at all. These birds are rare and I have bred birds like this in the last 39 years. I have bred only one number one in the last 7 years and 606 was a number one also. 606 was a bird that Bruce Cooper gave me that I flew. Bruce knows about this pigeon and his father spun the same way. He has produced some fast birds but no number ones as himself, which these birds are few, but he has produced number two’s and three’s. The other 20 percent are number 5-10 and a few that will bump or crash. I keep accurate data on my birds. I am a velocity nut and I believe in velocity first and style. I hope this answers your question.
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gotspin7
600 posts
Nov 25, 2007
1:00 PM
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3757, in our private e-mail we talked about spin and not how many you breed. 3757, I should be in your area in the spring next year I hope you are able to fly a kit, I really want to see that high percentage of true spinners!
Last Edited by on Nov 25, 2007 5:56 PM
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0016
27 posts
Nov 25, 2007
5:26 PM
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Me to Got Spin I always like to see some spin, if thats alright with you 3757 I think I am in your area I am in Moreno Valley California, are you in Norco?
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Ontarioflyer
31 posts
Nov 25, 2007
5:42 PM
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3757, Me and 0016 would like to come by and see your kits to. You know I also live in your area. It be nice to see you again.
Terry
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0016
28 posts
Nov 25, 2007
5:46 PM
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3757 my name is Antonio,Mitchell I fly with the C.P.R.C I am located in Moreno Valley just so you will Know Who I am.
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Ontarioflyer
32 posts
Nov 25, 2007
6:03 PM
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Sal, Good smoke out.
Terry
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donb
38 posts
Nov 25, 2007
6:16 PM
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David. I honestly don't think u have to have the ro gene on both sides. To produce quality spinners- yes , but to get a tumbler -No. I'll give u an example. Back in 1944 I lived in south Georgia out in the country and I was the only one anywhere around that had pigeons. There was some commons around a cotton mill on the edge of town. One day I cane in from school and went to fly my rollers (BTW they came from Ed Wintermuth in Milwaukee wis. I had shipped them south from Mich. ) Ther was an Ash-Red bar ( called silver bars in those days) commie on the barn roof. He trapped in with my rollers. I let him stay around caude I had no Ash-reds. He mated with one of my good roller hens and they produced tumblers that would do 1 flip at a time. That makes me wonder - if u have enough ro genes from 1 side of the family can the offspring roll to some degree.?? Anybody else had any experience along that line ?? Thanks for listening. DB.
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CSRA
560 posts
Nov 26, 2007
9:34 AM
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3757 what family are you refering to that cannot produce spinners?
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