3757
292 posts
Nov 25, 2007
7:12 AM
|
I would like to get some survey information from the fancy as to what you believe Bill Pensom meant to the following statement:
"Taking the fancy as a whole, there are very few birds worthy of the title Birmingham Roller."
|
W@yne
779 posts
Nov 25, 2007
7:34 AM
|
I reckon when Bill wrote that scripture years ago he was referring to the hobby in general at that apparent time. In today's hobby i think if Bill would of been still alive he would have worded that statement differently because in today's fanciers there's a lot more good solid rollers than those bygone times. Jmho
----------
Regards
W@yne UK
Patience Perseverance Perfection
=====================================
|
CSRA
544 posts
Nov 25, 2007
8:00 AM
|
The difference between roll and spin i must say good post and i agree with Wayne also
Last Edited by on Nov 25, 2007 8:00 AM
|
3757
293 posts
Nov 25, 2007
8:32 AM
|
Wayne - Are you saying there are more people who have goals to breed high velocity spinners now?
|
PR_rollers
114 posts
Nov 25, 2007
8:44 AM
|
----------
...I still say that title stands today,,they are lots of roller fancier today,, but a lot are also crossing the breed..
-AND DON'T KNOW THE STANDARD,IDEAL TYPE---------
|
Alohazona
351 posts
Nov 25, 2007
9:01 AM
|
In my opinion a true Birmingham shows the hole,whether 5 or 50 ft.Medium seems to be the best size for showing a clear through hole.Velocity is a key ingridient.A hearty bird with excellent feather and muscle tone from day one.A look of calm and confidence.With these attributes,this bird is also better at homing than most,meaning a good flyer as well as a performer....Aloha,Todd
Ps..I'm not describing a champion,but a true birmingham in ideal.just my opinion.
|
Alohazona
352 posts
Nov 25, 2007
9:18 AM
|
Pr rollers,
I think this crossing thing is way overbaked.Sure it has been done for color,but seen no evidence were it's done for performance,unless they are trying to bring roll back into a color project.If you have true Birminghams to begin with,they have a good color.These types of breeders know who they are,and experienced fanciers do also.The new guys will always be vunerable because they are new,whether its color ,performance or some other issue.If a new guy has common sense enough to be a notable fancier and follows performance,it will always lead him back to true Birminghams....Aloha,Todd
PS...In racing homers,a purple bird can win a race and someone will still want to buy it and breed it.One things for sure everyone will know it's an abortion gone wrong.True Birminghams are not as infiltrated as some want you to think.The ideal is rare in anyones stud of rollers.
Last Edited by on Nov 25, 2007 9:27 AM
|
gotspin7
597 posts
Nov 25, 2007
10:26 AM
|
3757, good post! I try to breed for speed & style!
Todd, great post!
Last Edited by on Nov 25, 2007 10:32 AM
|
W@yne
780 posts
Nov 25, 2007
10:45 AM
|
Wayne - Are you saying there are more people who have goals to breed high velocity spinners now?
3757
3757
What i am trying to say is yes there are more people who have goals to breed high velocity rollers on the whole because today the hobby has grown ten fold here in the UK and especially in the good ole USA.
But if it went to a percentage i would say the hobby could be in a bad state and in trouble over there with what i hear and read.
I think that there are more guys than ever trying to modernise the roller of today making a mockery of all Pensoms scriptures experimenting with crossings and mongrelizing the breed of today. Here in the UK it would be unthinkable to do such things undoing all the hard work of our fellow mentors that worked and took so much time to finalise and master the Birmingham Roller of today.
----------
Regards
W@yne UK
Patience Perseverance Perfection
=====================================
Last Edited by on Nov 25, 2007 1:03 PM
|
3757
294 posts
Nov 25, 2007
10:55 AM
|
Wayne - Many people say that they got rid of the Pensom birds because of this reason or that. The Pensom birds were bred for the reason you mentioned and no other. It is not an easy road to breed for high velocity and style and I like your attitude. Send me a private e-mail please as I want to discuss something with you.
|
W@yne
781 posts
Nov 25, 2007
11:37 AM
|
3757
My email is
wiganrollers@yahoo.co.uk
----------
Regards
W@yne UK
Patience Perseverance Perfection
=====================================
|
hectorvicki2003@yaho
88 posts
Nov 25, 2007
11:37 AM
|
I think Pensom's words where good at his time but ther was but a hand full of fanciers in a hundred mile radius,now we have hundreds of fanciers in in 50 mile radius.the odds of having more good rollers has been changed when you drive 2 block to see another faciers birds fly.we have 18 members in our club but ther is at least 25 other people that dont compete but are in our regeon.thats alot of rollers,some bad but some good.
----------
Hector Coya
|
Missouri-Flyer
1018 posts
Nov 25, 2007
12:25 PM
|
Guys,
As we all know, there are a few that come on this site, when they have nothing to say but about how this breed is being ruined by those that cross this to that. My opinion is, that there are many, many more that fly what would be considered a Birmingham Roller, than those that cross for color,etc.
This breed is not going anywhere, and those that think that they are the few last living people that have B.R's is living a sheltered life!
Open your eyes and look around..Many more flyers today than in any other time of pigeon history, period!
With more flyers, comes more and better breeders, therefore better birds in general.
As far as the quote posted at top, that would hold true back in the OLD days, but to many good breeders,flyers today for that to be the case.. Ol' Billy would have to do something different today, as his ass would have been kicked by some of todays flyers.
----------
Jerry
Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
Last Edited by on Nov 25, 2007 12:28 PM
|
ezeedad
68 posts
Nov 25, 2007
1:03 PM
|
Laron,
I believe that what Pensom said is just as true today, or even more true today, than it was when he wrote those words. I believe that one of the main reasons for this rarity of the true BR is that the original pure blood has been destroyed.. NOT by crossing to other breeds.. To do that is so ridiculous that I don't believe that hardly any serious roller breeder would contemplate it, but by crossing within the breed.
I think its kind of like this:
Inbreeding = genetic concentration
Crossing= genetic dilution
Crossing destroys the work that the breeders have done in the past.
Wayne understands this.. I might guess that part of the cause of this is cultural.. The British have more of a respect for tradition than we in the U.S. Here we seem to think that we can improve on older ideas and ways of doing things.
One thing I have noticed is that we have bred a pretty good amount of really fast birds, but in the pursuit of speed the hole has all but disappeared.
Gomez
|
gotspin7
601 posts
Nov 25, 2007
1:12 PM
|
Gomez, I have a question regarding showing the hole, Since you have been around for a while with the (PENSOMS), weren't the birds larger and longer back, back then?
|
ezeedad
69 posts
Nov 25, 2007
3:14 PM
|
Gotspin,
Yes, you're right. There were more large and also longer birds. I think that the trend is to go towards speed, speed and more speed, and damn the torpedoes..!! I myself am guilty of having done just this. We have produced a lot of smaller birds, and those highest quality spinners that we have now are probably as fast or faster than the old good ones... But we have generally lost the quality of style that Pensom bred for and looked for in a true BR...
I think it has to do with the length mainly...but probably wing position is even more important than length.
Just my Opinion.... Gomez
|
0016
25 posts
Nov 25, 2007
4:45 PM
|
Birmingham rollers do they just have to come from
Birmingham, The reason I ask is because,I probably will never make it to Birmingham? are they indigenous to any specific place or region.
|
J_Star
1335 posts
Nov 25, 2007
5:40 PM
|
Paul, the size became smaller is due to lots of inbreeding. In the old days inbreeding was considered a taboo. Only a handfull of people played with it and most likely paid the price heavily among their peers.
Jay
|
ezeedad
72 posts
Nov 25, 2007
6:19 PM
|
Jay,
I don't think that smaller size is the result of inbreeding. I think it is the result of selection instead.
I mean, it could be from inbreeding of smaller birds, but you can also produce larger birds from inbreeding..I've seen that too.
But our breed and practically all breeds of any animal were produced by inbreeding and selection of the desired characteristics.
Pensom's chapter on inbreeding seems to have been ignored because there is still such a taboo against it. But it seems to me that he was explaining a technique that had long been practiced amomg breeders of his time.
There have been some breeders who have really applied inbreeding to their birds... Monty Neible, Kenny Billings, Dennis Godair, Rick Meer for example... I think that is a pretty good list of breeders...
Gomez
|
donb
39 posts
Nov 25, 2007
6:33 PM
|
Wayne, we hear that accusation from some people ( crossing other breeds into the roller ) but I have yet to hear from them as to where its being done or who is doing it. They just keep saying it's being done. There is just absolutely no need or purpose in it .Everything needed or wanted is already available in purebreds. DB.
|
black_hawk_down
52 posts
Nov 25, 2007
8:32 PM
|
Maybe Bill meant nothing is perfect....-joe
|
gotspin7
604 posts
Nov 26, 2007
5:20 AM
|
Paul, good post and thank you for responding!
Last Edited by on Nov 26, 2007 5:27 AM
|
COYOTE33
12 posts
Nov 26, 2007
5:55 AM
|
man you guys are missing the "whole" thing. a true br
shows the hole thats the goal. that's why pensom said it was limited.speed style everything goes with the hole.
why would there be any other goal.
coyote
|
Ballrollers
966 posts
Nov 26, 2007
12:11 PM
|
Let's see, now...the true BR would be one that showed the hole.......or is it only the ones that are inbred?.....or only the ones down from Pensom?......or the ones that meet Pensom's definition?.....Or only the ones with certain colors and patterns.....What a hoot! Everyone seems to have their own definition of what a "true" Birmingham Roller is. Using the catch-phrase "true" appears to be designed to impart something extra-special to certain Briminghams. Its a moot point, guys. It doesn't mean anything, but "bragging rights". It's like the days when every Tom, Dick and Harry in Rollers was (and still is) advertising "Pensom" Rollers as something special, as the "true" BR. It's what they do in the air that counts. The NBRC website......"The Birmingham Roler is a domesticated member of the bird family, Columbidae. In particular, the Roller distinguishes itself by its ability to "roll" or simmersault backwards in rapid tight rotations. The rolling can be so fast on its axis that the pigeon resembles a ball of feathers spinning in mid air."
That's good enough for me.
YITS,
Cliff
|
3757
305 posts
Nov 26, 2007
12:25 PM
|
Cliff - Can you expand on the question as to what you think Bill Pensom meant by the statement "Taking the fancy as a whole, there are very few birds worthy of the title Birmingham Roller."
Thanks
|
Ballrollers
967 posts
Nov 26, 2007
1:38 PM
|
3757,
Therein lies the problem...we have some men, today as well as in the past,who stand on a definition based on pedigree and "purity"...and some who stand on a definition based on performance......and some who stand on a definition based on type (body shape,feathering [crests, muffs], head shape, beak, etc.) For the latter, anything that falls outside their narrow definition, MUST be a cross or something less than a Birmingham Roller, for those men.
With Pensom, we always have to be careful. We are always dealing with a problem with semantics and taking things out of context. But I believe in Pensom's day, his goal in life was that he was trying to raise the bar for the breed...that he saw a lot of very poor quality rollers being raised by most men...and proposed a definition or standard for performance to elevate the level of quality performance so that guys would not settle for anything less if they truly wanted to gain a reputation for raising and flying the Birmingham Roller. He was able to do it himself (breed quality) and he tried to impart some of that to others.Obviously, a bird that is a pedigree BR is no less a BR because it is stiff and only flips. Like wise, a Parlor roller that rolls of the Empire State building and spins all the way to the ground, is no more a BR based on Pensom's definition. So we have to decide, first, whether we are talking pedigree or performance. Most men today base it on performance, I believe.
JMHO,
Cliff
|
COYOTE33
13 posts
Nov 26, 2007
1:51 PM
|
absolutely cliff!
it is preformance, it is also selection and breeding the
best to the best to get that high quality roller.a doughnut
is a doughnut and a pie is a pie you make the choice.
coyote
|
3757
306 posts
Nov 26, 2007
2:49 PM
|
Cliff - Like my dad you to say, Tu as reussir! This is absolutely correct! You get a gold star!
Last Edited by on Nov 26, 2007 3:07 PM
|
Ballrollers
969 posts
Nov 27, 2007
12:32 PM
|
Thanks, LD! Keep in mind that the family of birds that I fly (James Turner or South Carolina family) were developed from Pensom stock.
YITS,
Cliff
|
3757
309 posts
Nov 27, 2007
12:41 PM
|
Thanks Cliff - I really like the way stated your answer. I hope all is well.
|
George R.
901 posts
Jul 18, 2008
11:11 PM
|
Any one have real birmingham rollers in there loft ????
|
gotspin7
1488 posts
Jul 19, 2008
4:21 AM
|
Well it depends on who you ask...LOL
----------
Sal Ortiz
|
Scott
951 posts
Jul 19, 2008
4:13 PM
|
For you new guys, you MUST learn what quality is and strive for nothing less, but don't get caught up in little donut holes and get discouraged because you aren't seeing it,because these guys talking about it don't have it either except in maybe an individule pigeon, and that is a big big maybe to boot.
If they are talking about several they either don't know what it is or are exagerating,but yes it does exist but is not the only mark of an exceptional pigeon.
The hole comes from a certain type and "Balance" balance is the key here , balance is still very much a sign of extreamly high quality,but the type is what was lost due to the persuit of the illusion of speed.
With that said, I prefere style over shear speed, now give me ball bearing smoothness (balance) and speed along with a high H wing or better and I'm a happy camper.
Just a little taste of reality here
----------
Just my Opinion
Scott
----------
Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Jul 19, 2008 4:14 PM
|
Scott
953 posts
Jul 19, 2008
5:44 PM
|
"Taking the fancy as a whole, there are very few birds worthy of the title Birmingham Roller."
I agree with this statment when you take in the big picture,and I kind of disagree with my buddy Wayne as all he see's for the most part is this site as it is kind of in your face due to the amount of new guys and backyard flyers we have here.
And then you throw in these guys with "projects" such as color,muff,crest,pedigree ect. that have no relationship to breeding better birds and no wonder they think that we are such a mess LOL
But the fact is we have a core of exceptional flyers in this country also that take the breed very serious,but no doubt there is some real poor birds floating around also.
As for birds that aren't worthy of the title, I breed my fair share of these as does everyone.
----------
Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Jul 19, 2008 5:47 PM
|
nicksiders
2972 posts
Jul 19, 2008
7:14 PM
|
A breed is a breed. If you feel certian that the breed you have is Birmingham Rollers; then they are real or true Birmingham Roller. Some are better performers than others, but all are Birmingham Rollers.
Too many of us are still equateing the Birmingham Roller as a performance level and not an identifiable breed on to itself. What that means to me; that any mixed breed could be a Birmingham depending on its performance. I don't buy it.
----------
Just My Take On Things
Nick Siders
|
Scott
954 posts
Jul 19, 2008
7:29 PM
|
Nick, now you are getting touchy due to the smoke screen that the color breeders try to lay out LOL
Of coarse even the poorest examples are still Birmingham Rollers, but they don't represent the breed, nothing more and nothing less.
----------
Just my Opinion
Scott
|
Alohazona
418 posts
Jul 19, 2008
7:53 PM
|
Scott,
Who are these color breeders you keep talking about?I can't see were anyone is really winning with color projects.People do all kinds of things with pigeons,but I don't see were it has it's meat hooks into performance rollers,and certainly not the competitions,there are your exceptions but not as a whole.Now I have seen guys sell their color projects on eggbid and such,but you would have would to have rocks in your head to buy any performance breed on such sites.Where are these color guys you make mention of?...Aloha,Todd
|