3757
322 posts
Nov 29, 2007
4:59 AM
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It was stated many years ago that you should mate best to best. This, as you know, is an ambiguous statement. I believe that Bill Pensom was referring to birds that could spin with high velocity and that had good type and expression. Now, if a newcomer read the statement of mating best to best he or she could have two roll-downs that are their best performers. In mating these birds together the out come for the future would not be a family of high class spinning birds. They could also have birds that were seldom performers and had a genetic fault of always rolling blood in their eyes but it is their best. I have to give my dad the credit for opening my eyes to the true meaning of this many years ago when I was a young lad.
What do you think best to best means?
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gotspin7
651 posts
Nov 29, 2007
5:15 AM
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3757, I will have to agree with you first of all! And second I beleive that they have to roll right and have the look other wise I will not breed from them.
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Sal Ortiz
Last Edited by on Nov 29, 2007 5:37 AM
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COYOTE33
14 posts
Nov 29, 2007
6:03 AM
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hey! LD, i appreciate that statement and yes it is true,
but since i've been chatting on this site, it seems that
everyone has a different outlook or prospective as to
definition. so maybe if you define best to the best we can
come to a better conclusion.
coyote
ps what are you doing up so early!
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3757
323 posts
Nov 29, 2007
6:13 AM
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Coyote - I am up at 3:00am daily including weekends. Also, I am writing an article on this subject as we speak. I am curious to what others think. Also, best to best mating does not guarantee success but it does increase your chance for a higher percentage of success.
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gotspin7
658 posts
Nov 29, 2007
6:27 AM
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Laron, you left out birds that swell their heads up, I had a family of birds years ago that did this.
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Sal Ortiz
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3757
324 posts
Nov 29, 2007
6:51 AM
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Sal - You are correct! The swelling of the head after performing a roll or spin is also a genetic defect and there are others defects as well. Some fanciers would breed this bird if the bird was their fastest spinner? I would not. Also, what family was this that had the swelling of the head after performing?
Last Edited by on Nov 29, 2007 6:54 AM
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CSRA
588 posts
Nov 29, 2007
7:03 AM
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3757 i agree with you good post good job it will touch some newbie
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Fire Brewed Rollers
30 posts
Nov 29, 2007
8:04 AM
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I think it also depends on the family of birds you are working with.
From my Ruby line that came from Tony with a lot of control, the deep ones are doing 25 feet. Best to best has been working very well so far with these birds. I never have got a roll down from the Ruby line, a bump or two at best when broken down.
The line I got from Hector Coya about 15 years ago go back to Bob Scott, if I keep breeding the best blacks together they get deeper and the 40 footers will throw 50-60 footers and more roll downs. So best to best is not always best so you switch them or add color in.
The line I got from Gene Giegoldt I am breeding best to best but haven’t had them long enough to figure out what all I get, they are also deep birds.
So far I have found that best to best works great tell you start getting a little deep or are breeding deep birds.
Just my birds so I get to experiment a lot to see what I get, always an experiment.
The hi-breds will throw some excellent and some poor at best.
Robert Miller
Fire Brewed Rollers
Last Edited by on Nov 29, 2007 8:11 AM
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3757
325 posts
Nov 29, 2007
11:46 AM
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Robert - Good post. Outside of performance what else do you look for in a pigeon?
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ezeedad
98 posts
Nov 29, 2007
12:10 PM
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Laron,
My interpretation of that would go a little farther, because Peensom wrote that you should breed best to best regardless of relationship.
I believe that he meant regardless of how closely they are related and possibly how unrelated too.. It's a sort of "One size fits all" type statement.
And loke Sal Ortiz says... he judges best not only by performance, but also on the ground..
Ortiz... those are some good looking birds...
Gomez
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Ballrollers
973 posts
Nov 29, 2007
12:32 PM
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LD,
I think Pensom's "best to best" phiolosphy can consistently be relied on, to improve a man's stock, regardless of where he is in his breeding program. And if it is continued long enough, I believe it can bring it to the level one wants to achieve. Of course it depends on the quality of the initial stock, and how long the flyer has or wants to take to get where he wants to be!! So if the best a man has is once-every-two-minute six-footers, by continually selecting the best, I believe a team of 30-40 footer speedsters can eventually be developed, but it might take a couple lifetimes to do so! Since we are always looking for the short cuts, we tend to cross in someone else's best, hopefully from within our family, to jump us forward in our program. The fact is that we are all over the place, each of us with different levels of quality...so that keeps it interesting.
The other major issue that is most often overlooked in this discussion, is our ability to select "best". That is a very difficult call to make for all of us. For sure it does not mean deepest...or fastest...or eye...or keel...or any single factor in itself. Anyone who thinks they are breeding "best" to "best" and eventually breeds rolldowns, has made a poor selection of his "best". If one considers a single factor, he can develope the best keel...or eye....or speed. The problem is that we must look for the total package. So "best" means the sum total of all the bird's qualities. And we have birds with different strengths and weaknesses in different areas that we must choose from. And we miss the mark in our choices. We get "wowed" by a bird's speed, or depth, or pedigree, and overlook other faults. Then we produce less than "best". It is the single most daunting task in breeding rollers, in my opinion.
YITS,
Cliff
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glenn
54 posts
Nov 29, 2007
12:42 PM
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LaRon:
A breeder should breed his best birds together find out what he has and get the most out of what he has, then as he travels and he runs across a bird the fits his needs and can improve on what he has, then he should go for it. Always remember that Speed, Type ,Expression, Balance & Character all need to be considered in breeding your birds.One thing that I would like to say is to breed the pigeon not the pedigree. Breed best to best, fly as much as you can and don't compromise your standards because the rules change or you lose a fly.....Just a couple of thoughts to add to the mix.....Glenn
P.S.: I would never breed out of a crossed for color bird no matter how well it spun...period.
Last Edited by on Nov 29, 2007 12:54 PM
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3757
326 posts
Nov 29, 2007
12:50 PM
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Paul - Good points and it is conversations like this that help the fancy. I also believe that once you establish a strain Bill meant that it does not matter how close the birds are when mating best to best. Some have interpreted this to mean outcross another good bird to another continuously and I do not think this is what he meant. If the latter is done you really never establish anything and widen the gene pool in my opinion.
Cliff - Good response. "Of course it depends on the quality of the initial stock" - I believe that when Bill Pensom made the statement he assumed that an individual had good stock to begin with. I also think that in general the words best to best is just that "to general". Who decides what is best and best according to what? I would like for new fanciers to think in more depth about some of the old quotes and clichés and also some old timers. Cliff it is always good to get a response from you.
Glenn - Good additions and if you would bred out of one I would have to arrest you :) Also, I mailed your PRC membership card to you today.
Last Edited by on Nov 29, 2007 1:06 PM
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rollerman132
182 posts
Nov 29, 2007
2:57 PM
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Before we go any further, lets take a few steps back. He states that in order to establish a first class stud of rollers; we most mate together those birds that complement each other physically and morally. Morally refers to temperament, and physically to type. He also states that salvation is not found in getting birds from an outside source to mate with the birds you already have. If the person is stating out, he should separate male and female, then mate best to best regardless of relationship. When a person first gets his or hers birds, they can come from different strains, as long as he puts them together according to how they complement each other. Face it we all don’t get birds from the same source when we start off, and need a starting point in order to mate best to best. Nowhere in that statement does he say that they must come from the same strain.
Last Edited by on Nov 29, 2007 3:06 PM
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birdman
447 posts
Nov 29, 2007
3:11 PM
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I don't have Pensom's book with me here at work, but from what I recall regarding 'best to best', it was based on selecting the best TYPE from the birds on the ground, after the roll was already fixed.
Or am I mistaken again...lol
Russ
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Fire Brewed Rollers
31 posts
Nov 29, 2007
4:20 PM
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Hi 3757
Other items I am looking for in my current breeders.
In hens I am looking at frequency, speed, bird size, body type and keel length only as reference. Cocks I am looking for the same but don’t worry about size that needs to come from the hen.
I feel that it is more important to breed frequency, type, size and speed together and not be concerned with depth. Depth is not important as long as all are good for 15 to 25 feet. You only need to watch out for depth if the birds are too deep.
Today everyone I know has good birds so with the gene pool needed; you can only improve on body type and management. Type and size will improve the speed, the smaller bird with good balance can spinner faster then a large bird with a long keel.
Robert Miller
Fire Brewed Rollers
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smoke747
8 posts
Nov 29, 2007
4:24 PM
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hey laron, how is every thing?
k. london
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3757
327 posts
Nov 29, 2007
4:39 PM
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Keith - I am hanging in there! I hope all is well with you and your family.
Robert - That was a great post. I strive for velocity and style first and foremost. I guess I do not worry much about frequency because my birds are pretty frequent. Type is also very important.
Last Edited by on Nov 29, 2007 4:42 PM
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CSRA
598 posts
Nov 29, 2007
4:56 PM
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Good job Paul thanks for sharing
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gotspin7
663 posts
Nov 29, 2007
5:19 PM
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Paul, thank you for the positive comments!
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Sal Ortiz
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gotspin7
665 posts
Nov 29, 2007
5:25 PM
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3757, I am with you on your last post! 100%, this family of birds I working with just loves to roll!
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Sal Ortiz
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smoke747
14 posts
Nov 29, 2007
5:27 PM
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SOME GUYS GET BEST CONFUSED WITH FAVORITE. I WAS ONCE GUILTY OF THIS
SMOKE
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Roll Down
8 posts
Nov 29, 2007
6:57 PM
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To 3757: you mentioned the PRC. Is this the Pensom Roller Club? I was a member for several years starting in 1967, but quit when they became all show oriented. Can't seem to find it on the internet?
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3757
332 posts
Nov 29, 2007
7:16 PM
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Yes - I have taking over the Pensom Roller club and there are no show members only flying breeders who have the Pensom strain. We are starting up slow but getting there.
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Roll Down
9 posts
Nov 29, 2007
9:48 PM
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3757
That's great news for the Pensom Roller Club. Please keep us informed on your progress. I have never had anything but pure Pensoms myself but I have seen some great spinners that weren't Pensoms. To each his own and I wouldn't knock those who like to show them, I just prefer to see what they were originally bred to do. Fly and spin.
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bman
515 posts
Nov 30, 2007
5:03 AM
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Sal, I agree with you,all things being equal i.e. quality & style I love to see a bird that WANTS to perform regardless of how it is managed.
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Ron
Borderline lofts
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