smoke747
11 posts
Nov 29, 2007
5:08 PM
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which of the two would be better in the stock loft as a producer in your opinion?
it seems the smooth rolers produce more birds in higher % when it comes to their ability to work in active kits with out being stiff at times. the spinner produces the fastest birds but seem lack frequency at times and are stronger in flight(fly higher).
or at least in my family
your thoughts would be appreciated
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CSRA
603 posts
Nov 29, 2007
5:22 PM
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Keith i agree with you thats is a excellent post you are a asset to the bird world very good job i will see you soon
In this game it is about % keep them rolling brother
Last Edited by on Nov 29, 2007 5:25 PM
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gotspin7
667 posts
Nov 29, 2007
5:39 PM
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Steve took the words right out of my mouth LOL!
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Sal Ortiz
Last Edited by on Nov 29, 2007 5:39 PM
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3757
329 posts
Nov 29, 2007
6:07 PM
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Keith - To me you are saying that the smooth more active birds produce in your family and the fast spinners are stiffer when flown in competition. I like what you stated that this is what occurs in your family. But, would not you want to have the faster birds be your producers instead of the smooth roller? This could be done if someone finds the producers within the higher velocity birds that are frequent.
It is just the opposite in my family as well as Bruce Cooper's and Herb Sparkes. I like velocity/style and could care less about the smooth birds for my purposes because the smooth bird is rolling slower. Just my thoughts.As far as stiffness this is a matter of opinion to what is stiff and what is not. I also think that each family or strain will have different statistical outcomes to your question above.
Dr. LD
Last Edited by on Nov 29, 2007 6:30 PM
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Deadendkid
106 posts
Nov 29, 2007
6:21 PM
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hi bruce did your bruce coopper birds come from dick stephens i thought i saw a fancy pedigree you posted it hade nothing but champions on it very impresive
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Ballrollers
975 posts
Nov 29, 2007
6:26 PM
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Smoke,
Your hypothesis definitely does not hold water with the family of birds that I work with. These Turner or South Carolina birds are hard, fast, almost violent rollers and frequency of 2 times a minute is common. And they produce in high percentages. I have a pair that produces 80-90% A-kit birds, and several pair in the 60% range. In my experience, the kits of smooth rollers that I have seen look smooth as silk....but definitely slower. I couldn't tell you anything about their production rates, though. I can't really see any relationship between smoothness of rolling and production percentages, any more than color and production percentages, though Indigo carries a strong propensity to spin, in my family. Those percentages vary with other genetic factors, in my opinion.
YITS,
Cliff
Last Edited by on Nov 30, 2007 7:26 AM
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smoke747
18 posts
Nov 29, 2007
6:35 PM
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LARON, WHAT I AM SAYING IS THIS
YOU BREED 10 YOUNG FROM EACH COCK.
THE SMOOTH ROLLER WILL GIVE YOU 2 OR 3 FAST SPINNERS AT TOPS BOUT 5 SMOOTH LIKE HIMSELF AND 2 BIRDS THAT PROBABLY WONT MEASURE UP.
THE FAST SPINNER WILL GIVE YOU 4-6 SPINNERS THAT WILL PROBABLY SPIN REGULARLY BUT WILL THE MENTAL STRENGTH TO SHUT OF THE ROLL ON SOME DAYS. 2 - 3 THAT SPIN BUT WITH NO REGULARITY AND 1 - 2 THAT MIGHT NOT PERFORM AT LEAST NOT FOR 18 MONTHS OR MORE.
MY BEST BIRDS COME SMOOTH ROLLER TO FAST SPINNER TO KEEP THE BIRDS FLYING LOW , SLOW, ACTIVE, WITH GOOD STYLE AND SPEED CONSISTANTLY DOING SO.
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3757
330 posts
Nov 29, 2007
6:35 PM
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Keith - Understood, this is interesting statistics on your family.
Cliff - Those are good percentages for high velocity birds.
Deadenkid - My birds are directly from Bruce Cooper. I have known Bruce since I was eleven years old. The pedigree that you saw was a bird that Bruce Cooper bred and has nothing to do with Dick Stephens.
Last Edited by on Nov 29, 2007 6:46 PM
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kcfirl
206 posts
Nov 29, 2007
6:41 PM
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good style = smooth spin. High velocity birds are not necessarily good style. I like high velocity first but my best have high velocity with a very smooth spin and good style.
Firl
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smoke747
20 posts
Nov 29, 2007
6:48 PM
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REMEMBER FELLAS, ALL OPINIONS WELCOME WITH YOUR EXPERIENCES IF POSSIBLE
Last Edited by on Nov 29, 2007 6:48 PM
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Deadendkid
107 posts
Nov 29, 2007
7:55 PM
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357 can you post a pic of the pedigree again i would like to see it or where is it posted so i can look at it
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ICEMAN710
67 posts
Nov 29, 2007
8:20 PM
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Hey kid, that pedigree you are talking about, Bruce Cooper Bred the bird. That bird was then gifted by Mr. Cooper to Dick Stephens. simple as that.
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Gary
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Deadendkid
108 posts
Nov 29, 2007
8:35 PM
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iceman i just would like to see it is there any harm in that man you guys go on the defensive as soon as some one ask a little question almost like paranoia
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ICEMAN710
68 posts
Nov 29, 2007
8:59 PM
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Whoa there Kid, this is why I am weary of posting in any of your threads you create, your attitude is quite unattractive to say the least. I was not going on the defensive for your questions, seems as though you are the one going on the defensive. I simply answered your question so you could see the relation of Dick Stephens and the Bruce Cooper bird. There is no harm in showing you the pedigree, BUT I am not the one with the pedigree nor have i had anything to ever do with it. If you would like to see it, check out Larons site, thats where it is and has been. I have never ever gone on the defense concerning anyones questions on this forum, so please dont generalize everyone doing so on this forum because we're all here to learn and conversate about this great hobby, If everyone was be paranoia (which doesnt make any sense) there would be no one left on this forum. You have alot of growing up to do but all good, we were all once there i suppose.--
Gary
Last Edited by on Nov 29, 2007 8:59 PM
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Electric-man
905 posts
Nov 29, 2007
9:11 PM
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Good words Gary! Hope you don't get discouraged! I've been enjoying your post! I think several others are too!
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Val
"Site Moderator"
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Deadendkid
109 posts
Nov 29, 2007
9:13 PM
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iceman thanks for the generous comments and thanks for directing me to the pedigree i just wanted to see it thats all
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PR_rollers
143 posts
Nov 29, 2007
9:17 PM
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good post Iceman ....lol... keep posting you alright be me...
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Ralph....
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3757
343 posts
Nov 30, 2007
7:07 AM
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Gary - Great words!
Deadenkid - All of the birds that Bill Pensom bred that are listed as Champions are also listed as champions or rare stock in his record book. 3757 and his parents are all listed as champions by Bill Pensom.
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GREED FOR SPEED LOFT
287 posts
Nov 30, 2007
7:16 AM
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Laron or Anyone, these birds that Pensom listed Champions on pedigree's , do you think he flew all of them . How he discribed a champion in his book and to record all those champions. Do you think it was much easier to breed champions then?The champion is a rare thing to see in our era.
R_LUNA
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Ballrollers
977 posts
Nov 30, 2007
7:27 AM
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Smoke,
Based on the clarification of your premise to LD, I think that would apply to what I have seen with my own family of rollers. That makes more sense to me now. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that smooth rollers, generally speaking, probably have more control than the hard, fast spinners.
YITS,
Cliff
Last Edited by on Nov 30, 2007 7:29 AM
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Missouri-Flyer
1038 posts
Nov 30, 2007
7:33 AM
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I think those stats are in most serious breeders lofts, no matter what part of the country you visit.
the smooth is nice to see, but the speed is what keeps you staring!
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Jerry
Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
Last Edited by on Nov 30, 2007 7:33 AM
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RO
111 posts
Nov 30, 2007
7:49 AM
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Great topic Smoke,welcome to the board.I feel that sometime's it comes down to the mental make up of a bird,The spinner sometimes seem's to produce bird's that come into a spin at a young age and there for the YB doesnt have the maturity to handle such high velocity and it throw's them all out of wack.I have seen some smoother bird's which always seem to be a little longer casted then the spinner, gradually work's it way into the roll and has a little more finesse and control.Not saying that the high velocity bird lack's control but "some" at a young age will bump.In all I wouldnt Hesitate to stock either one if they were worthy.And this is for R-LUNA "without COMPROMISE"!
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Ro
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GREED FOR SPEED LOFT
289 posts
Nov 30, 2007
8:01 AM
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RO!! clowning on me now, alright...LOL.
R-LUNA
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RO
112 posts
Nov 30, 2007
8:09 AM
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Just a little,,,lol.I know you would like that One.
Ro
Last Edited by on Nov 30, 2007 8:11 AM
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3757
344 posts
Nov 30, 2007
9:22 AM
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Richard - Bill Pensom did not call a bird a champion usless it was flown. Next time you come over I will show you some of his record books and you will see for yourself. Examples are "8 yard rare performer Champion." An unflown bird would be listed as Champion producer in his records.
Jerry - That is right. It does keep you staring.
As a professor of intro to statistics I feel that there has not been any studies on most of the things we discuss regarding Birmingham Rollers and it all boils down to individual families/strains and experiences. I keep statistical charts on my family but this does not necessarily apply to another line. I know Arnold Jackson and Herb Sparkes keeps statistical data but that information also pertains to their particular families.
Last Edited by on Nov 30, 2007 9:34 AM
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smoke747
25 posts
Nov 30, 2007
10:07 AM
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now, thats what i'm talking about, some feed back on other flyers experiences.
here in La,Ca it is hard to realy fly the champion because it should be flown 2yrs or at least 2 seasons. most don't last that long because of B.O.P. THAT FORCES YOU TO MAKE A DECISSION ON WHEN TO PULL A BIRD FROM A KIT AND INTO YHE STOCK LOFT.
I STAND STRONG AND KEEP THEM IN THE 2 SEASONS.
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elopez
85 posts
Nov 30, 2007
10:31 AM
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Good post Keith. Are you waiting till it stops raining to feed your birds? Have you finished your loft?
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Efren Lopez
SGVS
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elopez
88 posts
Nov 30, 2007
11:21 AM
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cool. when do you think you'll stop by to pick up your birds? (except the weapon hen and 211, I'm putting this pair down in Jan.)
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Efren Lopez
SGVS
Last Edited by on Nov 30, 2007 11:23 AM
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smoke747
29 posts
Nov 30, 2007
11:40 AM
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LOPEZ,
I WILL PICK ALL OF THEM UP ON MONDAY
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elopez
95 posts
Nov 30, 2007
4:12 PM
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cool, we can go over my pairs for next season. Who will you be pairing with your weapon cock?
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Efren Lopez
SGVS
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J_Star
1369 posts
Nov 30, 2007
4:55 PM
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The smoothness comes from the wing placement and postion. You will find that all smooth spinning birds are () type. If you look closely, you will see that the primeries on both wings are touching as one feather from the joint to the end. They have less resistance to friction when decending down and appears fluid or ball bearing smooth. However, you can always breed speed into your family much easier than you can breed smoothness. I get one a year and I harness them like gold.
I for one will chose smoothness first because I can do allot with it. Once you breed speed into it, you will have a feather ball.
Jay
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Skylineloft
456 posts
Nov 30, 2007
4:59 PM
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Jay,
When you describe a bird with this- () would you call that an A frame spinner ?
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Ray
Breeding Quality Spinners,
"One Roller At A Time".
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J_Star
1371 posts
Nov 30, 2007
5:10 PM
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I used to call it ‘A’ frame until Brian McCormick and I got into a heated argument one time saying that ‘A’ frame birds are the birds that have the top of the primaries touching each others and some might cross each others at the tip. Those ones that cross are less desirable. For that reason, I now specifically state that they are () type to avoid any arguments.
The () frame will show the wing from the side as '7' where the 'A' frame will show as if the wing streached upward.
Jay
Last Edited by on Nov 30, 2007 5:19 PM
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Skylineloft
457 posts
Nov 30, 2007
5:13 PM
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That is a interesting thought Jay,
Thanks for sharing......
PS. I think I might have sided with you on that argument....lol
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Ray
Breeding Quality Spinners,
"One Roller At A Time".
Last Edited by on Nov 30, 2007 5:14 PM
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wishiwon2
17 posts
Nov 30, 2007
9:49 PM
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I'd like to chime-in on this, add my 2 cents, although that may be all its worth.
A couple of things; first, I believe smoothness results from a few things 1) proper wing position as described above, 2) correct balance, both in body structure and movement. They go together. If a bird is moving 1 wing with slightly more range than the other the roll will appear of balance or rough or perhaps the birds head flexes back a bit more to one side than other, too long backed, too short keeled ... etc, balance. 3) mental stability. A bird which fights the roll or resists rolling is "grabbing" at the air trying not to roll, maybe the roll scares them,for whatever reason they fight it. I believe this results in wingswitching, plate rolling and general sloppy performance. Also if a bird has too little control, they "let the roll happen" TO them and they dont perform correctly by entering/exiting rolling in a controlled fashion. = smoothness.
That said, I would prefer to stock pigeons that demonstrate smooth correct rolling over birds that roll with hyper-velocity and inferior style. I believe from my experiences that smoothness (correct rolling) begets smoothness. It is very difficult to improve or compensate for incorrect rolling (wing position, balance and stability).
I cannot claim that smooth rollers make better breeders over high velocity spinners. I just believe it is absolutely critical to choose those birds for stock that roll correctly first. Elsewise it can become a drift away from producing good rollers over generations. Hopefully that is what we are each after is birds that perpetuate themselves generation after generation.
I love to see speed. Give me 2 birds that both roll correct (smooth) and I choose the faster one. Its just that in my criteria for slecting stock hyper-velocity isnt at the top. Style, with all its facets is, form first. I think if one chooses correctness first other aspects of perfomance will follow, also proper rolling is one of the most difficult attributes to compensate for.
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smoke747
37 posts
Nov 30, 2007
10:08 PM
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thanx for the input wishiwon
smoke747
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GREED FOR SPEED LOFT
296 posts
Dec 01, 2007
6:20 AM
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SPEED and STYLE for me first. You can always put the frequency much easier than the velocity, because I want to lock in those quality traits first ,to keep it in the genes.Pensom wrote "TRUE TYPE WILL SHOW ITSELF IN THE AIR".
Laron --I agree with you.
R-LUNA
Last Edited by on Dec 01, 2007 6:41 AM
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Velo99
1432 posts
Dec 01, 2007
6:51 AM
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I want the smooth rolling birds.
If a bird seperates itself and catches the judges eye,do you want a smooth clean roll with nice velocity or an edge of control screamer? You don`t get speed points but you do get quality points.
Seeing as how the fly rules are based on a minimum performance standard,competetion categories are usually the base of a lot of breeding criteria. From those we get birds on both sides of the spectrum. Keep the best,eat the rest. BR 101 in a nutshell.
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V99
Flippin`The Bird!
http://www.bluedotloft.50megs.com
Last Edited by on Dec 01, 2007 6:52 AM
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ROLLER7
21 posts
Dec 01, 2007
3:03 PM
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That said, I would prefer to stock pigeons that demonstrate smooth correct rolling over birds that roll with hyper-velocity and inferior style. I believe from my experiences that smoothness (correct rolling) begets smoothness. It is very difficult to improve or compensate for incorrect rolling (wing position, balance and stability).
This is the way I feel also.....smooth rolling is sweet to the eye and looks very fast .....no one is counting the RPS....Jerry
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Velo99
1439 posts
Dec 01, 2007
4:32 PM
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Doc,
Please note, I did qualify my statement by using "nice velocity" in my description of a smooth roller. If it gets too slow it loses its smoothness. I do believe smooth is the median of the performance spectrum.
I have heard of birds that get faster as they roll, I also hear they have trouble getting out clean.
Speed kills....quality thrills.
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V99
Flippin`The Bird!
http://www.bluedotloft.50megs.com
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3757
356 posts
Dec 01, 2007
4:42 PM
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Velo - I respect your opinion however I believe that speed and style have to go hand in hand and the good ones will come out clean. I do not think anyone would say they would rather not have a bird with high velocity and correct style over one that did not. If they do I would think something is very wrong with their understanding of the breed. (Velo) this is not towards you but a general statement.
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Velo99
1441 posts
Dec 01, 2007
4:48 PM
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Doc,
We`re cool bro.
Is there a point where the roll starts to deteriorate due simply to the speed of the roll? The fine line between the two is the point I would breed toward.
From that point there are a myriad of things that can affect the speed and the quality of the roll which is really what we`re talking about.
Hypothetically, you`re judging a kit. Some birds are fast as lightning,25-30 footers,just a little sloppy, minor deviations in the roll. The bulk are 20-25 footers with a nice smooth roll, like I said nice but not impressive speed. What do you give for a Q&D and why? Anyone?
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V99
Keep the best. Eat the rest.
Last Edited by on Dec 01, 2007 4:56 PM
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3757
357 posts
Dec 01, 2007
5:18 PM
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Val - I have a good recipe if you are serious about eating the culls. My dad still raises white kings for food and we eat them often.
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GREED FOR SPEED LOFT
297 posts
Dec 01, 2007
9:32 PM
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V99,(with all due respect) if you breed the fast spinner and comes out sloppy then something is wrong(in general) in that breeders breeding structure of the birds that cannot handle, it is lacking. That is the breeders fault. I have seen at alot of high velocity birds at many lofts that go into it fast and come out clean,15-60ft stop and bounce like nothing to them.On the contrary there is alot and I mean alot of smooth rollers that are also sloppy with bad wing postion,wing swicthing and open roll,that is the breeders fault also. There's flyers who stock out these kind of birds for the sake of frequency. Any birds fast or smooth that dont have the style and cleaness should not be stocked.
R-LUNA
Last Edited by on Dec 01, 2007 9:45 PM
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Velo99
1443 posts
Dec 02, 2007
7:54 AM
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Rich,
Question I am asking is there a point when the roll gets too fast for the bird to control? I am talking about high quality rollers not culls with slop. Think of your A team,not developing yb`s or just avg kit birds. We`re talking about birds that might hit the breeder loft. Think of it from that perspective. Which do you pick?
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V99
Keep the best. Eat the rest.
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