Oldfart
261 posts
Nov 30, 2007
3:57 PM
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Hey All, Holding a bird in both hands and tucking it's wings under the tail and then giving it a gentle shake to cause the tail to flex upwards in order to observe the distance the tail flex's could be an indicator of what?
Do you think if the tail flex is great (closer to the head) that this bird might be able to tuck tighter and thereby roll smoother or faster? Could it be an indicator of a weak back and thereby a sloppy bird in the roll? Is this tail flex controlled by the number of feathers over the tail, or by back muscle? What if any significance does this have?
Thom
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sundance
305 posts
Nov 30, 2007
6:56 PM
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Thom, Ive seen this done also, Joe Bell has done it here at my place a few times. I think he was looking for maximum flexibility to see if a bird can really ball up in the roll. I might be wrong but if I can call him tomorrow I`ll ask. good question though...
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Butch @
Sundance Roller Lofts
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smoke747
33 posts
Nov 30, 2007
8:13 PM
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its not how close the tail gets to the back of the head,but how far it spreads. it should apear as one feather to indicate back muscle in my opinion.
in rayvon halls 1220 grizzles, they hold their tails down no matter what and the hold them tight together.
these birds have good speed but are quite stiff at times, often flying in one direction.
hey 3&57 were are you?
k.london
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Oldfart
264 posts
Dec 01, 2007
6:53 AM
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Hey All, I have been away from rollers for awhile but I am trying to relearn or just plain learn all I can. Tony mentioned this briefly in a phone conversation and started me thinking. I was forced to stop flying because of the b.o.p. but before I stopped I tried to track how the birds with the most flex compared with those that didn't flex quite as much. Also it seemed that the feather wrapping along the tail feathers was tighter on the birds that were doing the best. Smoke I think you are correct in that the feather and back muscle has a lot ot do with the tail staying tight in the roll. My best and tightest was a blur bar hen who's tail is wrapped very tightly and will flex almost all the way to her head. This speaks to body type, feather quality, conditioning and several other factors. I guess I was curious if anyone else had tried to breed for this?
Thom
Last Edited by on Dec 01, 2007 6:56 AM
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Velo99
1433 posts
Dec 01, 2007
6:59 AM
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O.F.
Seems to me the bunch of feathers is a hindrance to the tuck. I have a family that has that propensity. It does affect the tuck compared to others.
The thing I have also looked at and it is true to some extent is the tail going to one side when you rock the bird. Some of these have a tendency to twizzle on exit of the roll and certain instabilities in the roll. Not all of them do it,but toward the end of a fly it is more noticable.
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V99
Flippin`The Bird!
http://www.bluedotloft.50megs.com
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Oldfart
265 posts
Dec 01, 2007
9:48 AM
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Velo99, I was not aware of your post about tail flex until I found it by accident this morning. After reading that post and your response to my post, I went to the loft to look at my birds first hand. I think I see what you were saying about a feather bunch at the base of the tail and I agree that if there is a larger amount of feathers there it would inhibit the ability for the bird to tuck into the roll. I will speak of just one bird, a blue bar hen. Her feather coating is very smooth and extends along the tail almost to 1" of the end of her tail. When she spins her tail stays tight until she comes out of the roll, then it flares to stop the spin. Her mother and to some degree her siblings are much the same. My basic question is do you think this trait(if indeed it is a trait) would be worth including into your (my) breeding program?
Thanks, Thom
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glenn
55 posts
Dec 01, 2007
1:14 PM
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I should not say this, but hear goes: Taliflex = BUll$#!@
Glenn
Last Edited by on Dec 01, 2007 2:32 PM
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Velo99
1438 posts
Dec 01, 2007
1:24 PM
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Thom,
If it rolls well and you like it...
When I get to that level of selection in my program I`ll let you know how it works for me. I am still looking for performers to work as a group. Tail flex is way down the list for me.
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V99
Flippin`The Bird!
http://www.bluedotloft.50megs.com
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Oldfart
266 posts
Dec 01, 2007
1:45 PM
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Hey All, What I was trying to say is that any aspect that might bring about improvement is worth consideration. Can't learn if you don't ask. :-) It could be total BS but I'm still interested and will continue to observe.
Thom
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Mount Airy Lofts
295 posts
Dec 01, 2007
2:08 PM
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I have seen videos of this and to tell you the truth, it makes little sense how it would indicate a good performer vs a cull. I suppose if all you want are birds that posses such ability (tail holding one tail feather form), then go right ahead. Other wise, there are no short cuts to simply just flying it out. Personally if visiting a loft, I would rather see it in the air then to flex such tails on the ground.
The tail flex theory is just that, a theory. Some guys live by it, most guys don't.
Thor
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ROLLER7
19 posts
Dec 01, 2007
2:46 PM
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Thor is right....in my opinion....rollers spin with the tail flaired anyway.....they never roll with the tail in a closed one feather position....Jerry
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Velo99
1440 posts
Dec 01, 2007
4:42 PM
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Jerry,
Point I was making in my post was;when a bird flexes its spread tail off center it then can affect the roll? If it rolls in the same manner can it affect the roll in some way? I think it could,not would,could.
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V99
Keep the best. Eat the rest.
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kcfirl
218 posts
Dec 01, 2007
4:55 PM
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In the photos I have seen, the bird flairs the tail at the inception of the roll, but it does not stay that way during the roll. I beleive it has been proven quite well that the tail does not have much bearing on the spin itself.
I do believe that a well balance bird (tail included) will have a more pleasing spin to the eye.
Firl
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Oldfart
268 posts
Dec 01, 2007
5:14 PM
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Thanks Dave, I might be blind but this hen spins with tail closed.
Thom
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Skylineloft
464 posts
Dec 01, 2007
5:18 PM
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Dave,
Do you think you could give us a larger photo. That one is a bit small.
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Ray
Breeding Quality Spinners,
"One Roller At A Time".
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1934 posts
Dec 01, 2007
5:43 PM
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Glenn, Glenn, Glenn, lol, you gotta give us more than "BUll$#!@". You could just as easily say you have not observed it or noted a correlation to it in your best birds. That's fair and reasonable.
Why dismiss out-of-hand another fanciers observations and experiences in his own loft when you have not been there?
I HAVE made the correlation in some of my best birds, I am NOT saying you will notice the same thing in yours with your birds. When I spoke with Thom, about this, I qualified what I said by saying in MY BIRDS! Not Glenn's birds.
This tail-hinge trait has also been observed by others into rollers longer than me. I am not talking about 1 feather wide while rolling either, that's another trait.
A 90 degree or more Tail-hinge is a trait I have observed in some of my best rollers in my loft and thats a fact.
But some would have you believe them rather than your own "lying eyes".
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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gotspin7
702 posts
Dec 01, 2007
6:00 PM
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good post! real nice pic Dave! A style roll to it? At least that is what I am seeing!LOL
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Sal Ortiz
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Donny James
147 posts
Dec 01, 2007
7:13 PM
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hay thom, i hope i can explain this without getting myself in trouble what u just said/done to a bird to me is a false reading i think it throw the bird balance off and that why it throws its tail in the air like does and if the bird has a strong tail muscle it will show natural.............donny james
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Mount Airy Lofts
296 posts
Dec 01, 2007
9:44 PM
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One question for the believers of tail flex, is it the same as the eye flex theory?
Once just to kill time, a veteran flier and I went thru our best performers (current kit birds) with this tail flex theory while visiting each others loft. We concluded that nothing stood out as being worth noting. As our best birds showed both that they can hold their tails together or have a semi spread width. The flex varied as well, as some could bend it way back and others couldn't. Same as the birds that rolled of average style and velocity.
Of course I nor the veteran flier friend of mine were experts of this tail flex theory... so our out come were quite one sided.
Thor
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1939 posts
Dec 02, 2007
4:28 AM
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Hey Thor, I can't speak for others but the tail-hinge is something I have observed in some of my best birds. Unlike your study, my observations are merely anecdotal for my family.
I can agree with your statement; I think you and your colleague making your own observations and concluding that what you saw with your own eyes (the tail-bending) to not be a significant indicator of quality in that group is reasonable. However, I would be curious to know:
1: How many total birds were used in the observation process?
2: What were the percentages of tail-bending and non-bending rollers?
3: Of the tail-benders, what were the percentages of good rollers versus average rollers?
4: Of the non-tail benders what were the percentages of good rollers versus average rollers?
5: Were there any family correlations between the two kit boxes observed?
6: Were these young bird or hold-over kits that were observed?
7: Were enough birds used in your study to come to a statistically sound conclusion?
I think it would also be significant to go to the breeding pens and see if the percentages found in the kits match the percentages of breeders. If not, what is the higher percentage; tail-benders or non-tail benders?
In my view, for there to be no significance, then the averages have to come in at nearly 50/50, to me, anything leaning in one direction or the other indicates an observable trait in that family that should be exploited.
For example, if it is generally accepted that the “(-)” style roller is “better” than the “X” or “H” style roller then one must use that trait as one characteristic in selecting for the breeder loft.
If your sampling indicates one way or the other, i.e. that there is a statistical difference in one direction or the other, then you must seriously consider that as a factor in the selection process or you run the risk of ignoring data and a trait that could take your birds to another level.
==
I think I read somewhere on this site that we have a math teacher or someone into statistics, could this person jump in and tell us what would be a minimal statistical percentage that should cause an observer to take notice of what the data may or may not be suggesting? Also, what would be the number of birds and/or families to provide a good sampling have to be?
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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Velo99
1442 posts
Dec 02, 2007
7:45 AM
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Nice T,
Back to my observation and inquiry into the observation of the off center tail flex affecting the roll. Anyone?
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V99
Keep the best. Eat the rest.
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Oldfart
272 posts
Dec 02, 2007
9:06 AM
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Hey All, Tony I had no intention of starting any controversy, I'm just on a learning curve and was trying to find out if anyone else had noticed this phenomenon. I apologize if my curiosity has caused any discord.
Thom
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Electric-man
916 posts
Dec 02, 2007
9:38 AM
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Just a good healthy debate, Thom! I'm glad you brought it up! Its something that I have been observing in my birds also! It is something that I am sure will take some time to tell what factor it plays, but I feel it is one of the many things us newer flyers need to be observing! These ideas are good to stimulate our thinking!
You did good Thom!
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Val
"Site Moderator"
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Mount Airy Lofts
301 posts
Dec 03, 2007
1:17 PM
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Tony,
Answer to 1st question: About 20 kit birds - 10 from each loft varying from youngsters to 3 year olds.
Answer to 2nd question: Memory doesn't serve me right any more as I can not honesty say. I recall none being able to touch head to tail tho. All were able to do some flex. It was the fanning of the tail feathers that varied more then the flex. Both average birds ('X' style with average velocity) and high velocity good style birds showed about the same results.
Answer to 3rd and 4th: I recall all were able to show some flex. I don't recall one to not be able to flex it back to some degree.
Answer to 5th and 6: Both lofts were of different strains/family. Young teams and old teams were tested in both lofts.
Answer to 7th: I would not say that we had used enough birds nor did our experience upgrade us to be authorities of the tail flex theory. What I can say was that we sure had fun handling all the good rolling birds.
Hope that helped...
Keep them flying,
Thor
Last Edited by on Dec 03, 2007 1:34 PM
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Mount Airy Lofts
302 posts
Dec 03, 2007
1:33 PM
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V99,
Thinking about it, I have seen some very fast, very clean, very good style rollers which busted rumps - still able to rip clean solid rolls after their ordeal. I suppose if you want to test out the tail flex theory, smash a average roller's rump and see if that improves it's style and velocity. I highly doubt it. Same goes with rolls with no tail feathers - pluck them all and see if that improves or degrades the quality.
Just a thought,
Thor
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Mount Airy Lofts
304 posts
Dec 04, 2007
1:19 PM
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http://
Check out the spread on the tails
Thor
Photos were taken by Clay H.
Last Edited by on Dec 04, 2007 1:20 PM
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Oldfart
280 posts
Dec 04, 2007
3:39 PM
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Never said every bird would roll with it's tail closed, only said this one bird did. Also I never said she only rolled one feather wide. Just for the record.
Thom
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1945 posts
Dec 04, 2007
4:08 PM
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As far as tail-flex is concerned, my only mention of it is the bend in the tail being a physical benefit during the roll as there would be less drag when it is bent up and the further bent up it is, the less drag and tighter the roll can be.
The one feather tail would represent the same concept of less drag, however, I wonder if when a roller opens the tail, it is using it like a rudder in an effort to keep balance during the descent?
I would say the tail-flex and closed/open tail traits are mutually exclusive, adding more benefit to the roll than not.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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Oldfart
281 posts
Dec 04, 2007
4:47 PM
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Tony, My point but you said it better.
Thom
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1946 posts
Dec 04, 2007
4:59 PM
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Hello Thor, thanks for responding;
Being held in my hand, and positioning the bird to show the flex, I too have not had the bird pull its head back toward the tail; but I do gently press the head back toward the tail to see to what degree the head goes back, the further it goes, the better I like it. The actual tail-flex observed in the hand is to varying degrees.
This is a rough example of what I see; I hope this illustration makes some sense. Side View:
Figure 1-Best head /__\ tail-flex
Figure 2-Better head \__| tail-flex or |__| or \__\
Figure 3-Good head \__/ tail-flex
In my view, Figure 1 is the best suited to roll with less drag, therefore, has the potential to attain more velocity than either birds in Figures 2 or 3. Assumes all other performance factors are equal.
I am saying that I have noticed that in some of my best spinners, they tend to have the tail-flex position of Figure 1.
Now, as I said before, this is in my family and selections. Someone else may have seen Figure 3 be their best spinners in their own loft. I am not making a dogmatic statement that ALL rollers with the Figure 1 style will be the best ones regardless of family you breed.
Tail-flex is but 1 trait of a few that can help some fanciers decide if a specific bird has any value to their breeding program. I use the technique, no one else has to. If I compete against you, I HOPE you never do! LOL
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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glenn
59 posts
Dec 05, 2007
11:13 AM
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Hello Tony:
Tail Flex for determing how good a pigeon is, and I repeat BULL$#*%. Just my opionion and I am no rookie pigeon man. And Like I told you once before ask Homer Codera what he thinks about it. And he is no spring chicken either.
Glenn
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Mount Airy Lofts
306 posts
Dec 05, 2007
11:32 AM
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Tony,
Good to hear it is a tool that has worked out good for you. I don't know any one who uses it here nor had it turned me into a believer when I tested it out myself.
I will ask the guys to bring in there best kit birds for all to test (the tail thing a ma jig) out this coming year's local club meeting.
When the weather warms up again next year, I'll give your figures a go at it again.
The only reference I had was the videos of the Ohio club. Guys like Joe Roe, John Blender, etc. Thanks to my bud Donny. Don't know if you have seen it?
Keep them flying,
Thor
P.S. Thom, I was not attacking you nor any one else. Just stating what I have experienced. Sorry if you thought I did.
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Oldfart
282 posts
Dec 05, 2007
12:48 PM
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Thor, No problem, I'm a big boy.:-)but I still think it has some merit and is worth looking into and that is all I was asking in the beginning.
Thom
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1959 posts
Dec 05, 2007
1:12 PM
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Glenn, your post is BS! How do you like that! LOL Your post really drives me nuts because you make a statement like you do without providing any basis for it; other than to say you are no pigeon rookie?
I just don't understand how you think you can speak to knowing something about my birds when you have never even held one and discussed it with me.
I would be more inclined to place credence to your opinion if you at least explained why the above illustration would not be valid. I would have a basis to consider your view.
Otherwise you sound like someone who thinks he knows it all and is impressed by the sound of his own words. Not gonna work in my world. ;-)
BTW, I spoke with Homer today but his phone is having trouble so I will call him again after it has been repaired later this week to get his opinion.
Along the same vein though, I spoke with another gentleman who has also raised pigeons since the beginning of time and he agrees that a bird thats tail is in the position I describe above is better off aerodynamically.
Glenn, I think you misunderstand my position on this tail-flex, please go back and read ALL I have said for a better idea of what I mean.
My main point is that it is but A TOOL (trait/characteristic) among a few that I can use to ascertain the value of one of MY birds.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
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Mount Airy Lofts
314 posts
Dec 09, 2007
10:17 AM
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Tony,
Serious question for you or any one who uses tail flex to judge their birds...
Can you guys still use tail flex to tell the quality of a Roller's spin if it was never flown out? Take for example a bird that was stocked right off the nest or a bird that was stocked before it developed - was still flipping or tail riding and stocked? Don't say we don't do this as I know many of us have from time to time.
The reason is a friend of mine, Ivan stated once that young birds need to be flown out correctly (a minimum 4 days out of 7) to develop the correct muscle tones. It made a lot of sense when I heard this. Remembering back to any birds kept in and not flown out until months later... these birds seem to never develop right. Meaning they were prone to rolling with less frequency or rolling with looser style or worst yet, roll down completely - I get a lot of roll downs from this lot. Not to mention the kitting problems associated with such birds.
Thor
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1989 posts
Dec 09, 2007
2:55 PM
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Hey Thor, I don’t use “tail-flex” to judge my birds before they are proven in the air. It is a minor trait that means more after the bird is flown out. I don’t “live” by it, I don’t die by it.
I have said I observe this trait in some of my best rollers. I also notice this trait in birds that are not my best. Sounds like you are reading more into it than what anyone means to say about it??
I think what people are trying to do when they speak of “tail-flex” is merely share an idea that a bird that can “tuck” better, will tend to be in a position to roll better.
Thor Said:
“Can you guys still use tail flex to tell the quality of a Roller's spin if it was never flown out?”
Of course not, anymore than anyone can say that dark colors tend to be stiff and light birds tend not to be.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1990 posts
Dec 09, 2007
3:16 PM
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Thor, BTW, I am not speaking to one-tail feather while rolling as "tail-flex".
Open or closed, the tail bending up and back with the most extreme angle is what I am talking about. Sorry if I made you believe something different.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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fhtfire
1200 posts
Dec 09, 2007
3:26 PM
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Well...I guess I can put my two cents in....I do not think it means dumb diddly dumb dumb do...on how good a bird performs or how tight it tucks. I have looked at this theory and I think it is meaningless....Or maybe my birds are just retarded in the tail area...I have good birds that have the tail flex...I have had bad birds with the tail flex...I have had smoking birds that have the tail flex....to be honest...I think that they all have tail flex...I think if you tuck the wings underneath the tail...the tail will go up(natural)...kind of like when you bend your elbow your mouth opens...I think that it is meaningless...at least it is at my place....
ONLY ONE WAY TO TELL How good it is in the air an that is fly it....NO more No less.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1992 posts
Dec 09, 2007
4:30 PM
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Well, there you go. The tail flexing up is meaningless, the poor little roller has no idea that he is wasting his time and effort flexing that tail up and back. Poor little silly bird.
He doesn't know he doesn't even need a tail to roll. Poor pathetic pigeon...
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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Mount Airy Lofts
315 posts
Dec 09, 2007
5:20 PM
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Tony,
Didn't mean to jerk your nerves or anything. It was a real question I wanted to ask for knowledge sake. I know some guys who are followers of the eye sign and they claim to be able to pick the good birds when the eye turns at that certain age. Was just wondering if the tail flex theory is of the same. Every one has their tools.
So I suppose that is a no to my question. As you stated that they had to be flown out.
Thanks for the reply,
Thor
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1995 posts
Dec 09, 2007
9:34 PM
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Hey Thor, no problem on this end. Like was said before, just another tool of several. Thanks for showing consideration for my feelings! ;-)
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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Missouri-Flyer
1089 posts
Dec 11, 2007
1:51 AM
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Paul, you said:
kind of like when you bend your elbow your mouth opens...I think that it is meaningless...at least it is at my place....
What the hell does that mean?..LMAO
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Jerry
Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
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gotspin7
783 posts
Dec 11, 2007
4:30 AM
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LMAO!! Tony said it right on! Just another tool! Fly the crap out of them and stock your best spinners!(that roll (style) right, kit tight, roll tight,and LOOK right) LMAO!
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Sal Ortiz
Last Edited by on Dec 11, 2007 4:30 AM
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CSRA
715 posts
Dec 11, 2007
4:38 PM
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I agree with sal
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Joe Dan
10 posts
Dec 12, 2007
7:08 PM
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Hey Thor,
I don't know if you know Rick mee or not but he says that the "old saying" about birds that are not flown out/started out in the "typical fashion" when young birds do not develop well is not true.
Rick is in the Army and was stationed in Iraq. While he was there his wife raised him a lot of birds. Some of these birds did not get put in the air for their first time for several months... some up to 6 months the best i can remember the story... and he said that he did not cull any more birds within reason that he does when he puts them on the wing as normal???
I couldn't bhardly believe it at first to be truthful with you... but I went and watched these birds fly in the fall fly last year a few months after started working with them and he had some nice spinners? Kind of challenged my thinking...
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Joe Dan Parson
Full Turn Lofts
North Texas
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kopetsa
2361 posts
Nov 28, 2008
12:47 PM
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Keith have your birds proven that theory right while flying your birds? is that the case? just curious..? thanks!
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Andrew C.
Home of the Yellows
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Longroller
GOLD MEMBER
32 posts
Nov 28, 2008
7:14 PM
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Old timers say.."Tail up and 1-3 feathers wide==strong back"
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Ballrollers
1601 posts
Nov 29, 2008
8:10 PM
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To me, "tail flex" is only one of the many tools available to us to help determine whether our birds have the total package necesary for quality performance. Just as we see birds of all type that are capable of spinning, we still breed towards certain types and away from others, because we know that certain types are an asset to proper performance with speed. Tail flex is like that. It only tells you whether the birds has some of the physical characteristics that make it capable of rolling properly. It also requires a number of other things....the right feather....the right motor.....and the right character. Any given bird may inherit any combination of these charactistics and in differing amounts...or lack thereof. Any that possese only one of theses traits is probably a cull. The difficult part is distinguishing the birds that have the total package from those that only possesse two or three. Those with all four characteristics in the right amounts are the ones we want for the stock loft.
JMHO,
Cliff
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