Ballrollers
988 posts
Dec 05, 2007
1:45 PM
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List,
When flying rollers in competitions, it seems that during the week leading up to the fly, we are called upon to make certain judgement calls that are of critical importance to the performance of our birds when the judge is scoring our kit. Err and you get a DQ...or a flat performance. Make the right call, and you score in the top ten. We have seen this from the novice to the experienced roller men, in all phases of competition. I thought it might me an educational process for those of us that compete, as well as thoose who are considering the idea, to throw out some of the dilemmas that we have faced...some of the decisions that we were forced to make leading up to the fly, and see what kind of response we might get from the broad spectrum of experience of men on this site.
I'll take the first one:
Problem:
Your awesome kit has qualified for the finals. Between the regionals and the finals, you have three weeks. So you alternate flying and resting them feeding them 2 cups of wheat a day, the same as your prep for the regionals. The week before the finals, the temps drop into the 20s at night for the first time. Then during the last fly before the finals, your birds come down in only 10 minutes. Handling the birds reveals no significant change in weight gain or loss. What would you do? Increase the volume of feed? Increase the amount of protein? Give them an extra day of rest? Fly them an extra day? Let's hear what you have to say, then I'll tell you what I did and how it worked out!
YITS,
Cliff
Last Edited by on Dec 05, 2007 2:07 PM
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1962 posts
Dec 05, 2007
1:57 PM
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Cliff, I had my 2 kits fairly well conditioned and ready to compete in the 07 World Cup regionals. When my turn came to fly, winds were a very heavy continuous 35-40MPH.
Had it been a non-competition day, I would not have considered even flying. But the competitiveness of it being the World Cup, 1 time a year, guys traveling hundreds of miles visiting kits, I felt the thing to do was to let them out and they did what birds do in big winds, get blown away!
Fortunately, every bird made it back, they even managed a few points, but next time, they stay put. One major lesson I took from the 07 WC is that for me, "competition" and "competitiveness" can distort good judgment.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
Last Edited by on Dec 07, 2007 7:15 AM
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J_Star
1396 posts
Dec 05, 2007
3:59 PM
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Well Cliff, I will tell you none of the above that you listed.
In earlier thread you mentioned that you fed your birds extra to compensate for the cold weather the night before opening the door. BIG Mistake my friend. What you should've done is leave the same amount of feed untouched, just substitute good ol' yellow corn in their ration. Give them the corn first and then their regular feed. How much corn? Quarter of a cup and three quarters the other grains. It would not hurt if you give them corn for couple of days. Yes I know that I am not a flashy name in the competition arena, but I would not mislead you my friend.
Seriously Cliff, you need to bring your birds to ground zero first so you won’t have the problem of your birds flying for 10 min and coming down when you are prepping them. All you need is one or two weaker birds to bring the whole kit down. But if you bring them all to ground zero at the same time and work them back up all at the same time, you WILL NOT have couple weak birds in the kit. From what you are telling us, I am gathering that you were off in calculating their readiness for show down.
There you go my friend and now you know since you asked.
Jay
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3757
373 posts
Dec 05, 2007
4:46 PM
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Deaden - Since I am older I like to at least give a positive note so that the newbie will not have skewed data. First, Dick and I did not get along well at all in his later years and I do not have his strain but I would like to give some positive points to a man who recently passed away. Even though Dick and I had our differences he did fly some good pigeons in the late sixties and early seventies. At one point he was hard to beat so I give him that. Bill Patrick and Danny McKenzie also had many birds from Dick Stephens at one point in their roller careers. For the Newbie, Dick Stephens was a close friend of Bill Pensom and Bill Pensom gave Dick many of his champions. Many roller fanciers have some of Dick’s blood behind their lines including Houghton, McDowell, Elliott Norwood, Danny McKenzie, John Brasure, Richard Lowry and many others. His 23/9 pair was considered a champion pair by Bill Pensom and Bruce Cooper. This pair was well known in the sixties.
Last Edited by on Dec 05, 2007 4:54 PM
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Missouri-Flyer
1044 posts
Dec 05, 2007
6:30 PM
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Great thread Cliff.
As Jay stated, I would have sub'd some of their normal feed with that of yellow corn, for the protein benefit in an attempt to give them more strength, from being on straight wheat.
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Jerry
Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
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Donny James
159 posts
Dec 05, 2007
7:13 PM
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hay cliff i would give the birds a day of rest and add some more feed to them that should work for them...........donny james
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Ballrollers
989 posts
Dec 06, 2007
6:51 AM
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Well, I have to admit, the idea of feeding them corn two days before finals did not enter my mind. Keep in mind that the days were in the 60s. And I did not take them down to ground zero between the regionals and the finals.....out of concern that I wouldn't have time to get them back up to par. Another factor that I failed to mention is the shorter days with the time change. Now, I go to work in the dark and come home in the dark. So my son had to fly them during the daylight hours, and risk the BOP. These are some of the kinds of issues that the guys going into the finals have to deal with. My response was like Donny's....an additional day of rest and more (extra half cup of wheat) of the same grains of feed. Unfortunately, it was the wrong decision. The kit came out flatter than they had flown all Fall, and they flew for an hour. This kit will score 200 points, easily, on a typical day, and they scored 133 points in the finals with the winning score posted at 170 points. Do you think the birds ever have an off day and came down in 10 minutes for any other reason than conditioning? Perhaps not changing anything would have been the ticket.
YITS,
Cliff
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COYOTE33
21 posts
Dec 06, 2007
7:25 AM
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I dont know where that response came from 3757, but i must say i appreciate your honesty. Dick never talk bad about you,it was just a slight difference in opinion and you know dick, he just didnt put up with a lot of bs and he was a strong man with a strong personality. much respect for you speaking up on his behalf.
you know the hall of fame ballot is coming up, i think we should all honor him by voting him in because he has done so much for our hobby and i think this would make ruth's heart glad, after all she is still with us.
coyote
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J_Star
1413 posts
Dec 06, 2007
10:52 AM
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Cliff, I was at your place during the convention time and I saw your birds. Therefore, I can somewhat have a better picture about your birds and set up than others on this site to shed some helpful info for you to think about….Here you go,
When you flew both kits for me at that time, both kits flew for 10 min and very low and couldn’t wait to trap in. The first thing entered my mind is your birds were at ground zero and were ready to be worked to get the best performance out of them. The reason is because they behaved exactly how mine behave when I bring them to ground zero.
However, when you mentioned in your earlier post that the day before you opened the door, they flew for only 10 min and when you fed them extra to compensate for the cold, indicated to me that you were way off in your calculation in days for preparation. What happened here is your birds were at ground zero two days late and you didn’t recognize it and when you gave them the extra feed caused the birds to be stimulated, just like when I explained that the day after I brake them down, I would give them all the feed they can eat (day 3) but there is another 2 days left for the prepperation process (day 2 and day 1) where you need to bring them couple notches down in those two days by cutting the feed to one and one half cup of feed (day 2) and the following day is only one cup (day1). The cold snap just convoluted (masked) everything for you to see it in black and white and masked the ground zero effect. It would only take me 4 days tops to break my birds down not three weeks. However, when snap of cold weather pops up, it is always advisable to substitute corn as part of the feed than giving them extra feed for them to keep worm. Giving them extra feed will undo what you are trying to do. But corn will just make them worm and cozy in the cold nights. The protein and fat content of corn is not too far off wheat and for a day or two it is negligible.
Cliff, if I were to fly my birds after day 3 during preparation, they would perform exactly like what yours did when you opened the door for show down. If you need to discuss it further, give me a call.
Jay
Last Edited by on Dec 07, 2007 3:52 PM
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gotspin7
763 posts
Dec 06, 2007
6:59 PM
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Cliff, thank you for your honesty!
JStar, when are you going to start flying comps or do you fly comps? Seems like you got it down!
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Sal Ortiz
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CSRA
692 posts
Dec 07, 2007
7:08 AM
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I would give them extra feed the day before the fly
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smoke747
95 posts
Dec 07, 2007
8:10 AM
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very interesting Jay,
I need to keep this in mind even though it don't get very cold in LA.
SMOKE747
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J_Star
1441 posts
Dec 07, 2007
5:42 PM
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Thank you guys. I am gonna try my best to enter comps this fall. That is if God is willing.
Jay
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1982 posts
Dec 07, 2007
6:20 PM
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How about if Jay is willing? lol
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
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Missouri-Flyer
1077 posts
Dec 07, 2007
6:25 PM
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my thoughts Tony
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Jerry
Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
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J_Star
1444 posts
Dec 07, 2007
6:56 PM
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Jay is always been willing. That's why I got the birds. My time is all screwed up and I have been trying hard to free myself so I can do what I wanted to do from the first place. Will see how this year will go. I am gonna try not to lock down as early this coming year as always. I am gonna farm out allot of to do list. Yet, I am gonna be building 3 car garage this summer, driveway and all. Install a complete kitchen in one of rental property. Let's see how it will go.
Jay
Last Edited by on Dec 07, 2007 7:02 PM
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Missouri-Flyer
1079 posts
Dec 08, 2007
5:51 AM
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Jay,
your no busier than the next guy. The W/C and F/F are a single day event for you to fly, so your time has very little to do with actually flying those comp days!..Excuses maybe?
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Jerry
Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
Last Edited by on Dec 08, 2007 5:52 AM
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Ballrollers
991 posts
Dec 09, 2007
6:01 PM
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Thanks, Jay, and you others who commented. I appreciate your perspectives. I will definitely have to spend some time digesting your pre-comp program, Jay.
Let's move on to another simpler quandry that you might face during the week before competitions:
During the last week before competition, on the last fly before the judge comes, your best 30-40 ft. cock bumps hard on the nearby barn roof during landing. He flys on in to the kitbox unassisted and upon handling him, he appears to be ok...though he is not joining in on the feeding tray, preferring to collect himself on the perch. Your fly is two days away. What would you do? Take a chance and fly this bird, anyway? Replace him with a B-kit bird? Take him out and not replace him? You make the call......
Cliff
Last Edited by on Dec 09, 2007 6:02 PM
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gotspin7
781 posts
Dec 09, 2007
6:10 PM
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Cliff, how many kit birds did you start with 20? If so I would pull him and not replace him. My experience replacing birds has not been the best!LOL! Especially 2 days before the big day!
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Sal Ortiz
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Skylineloft
531 posts
Dec 09, 2007
6:44 PM
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Cliff,
With one day left, I would fly that bird with the B team to see how he responds to kiting after hitting the roof the day before. If he seems to hang in there, I would put him in the A team for the competition on fly day.
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Ray
Breeding Quality Spinners,
"One Roller At A Time".
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J_Star
1446 posts
Dec 09, 2007
7:06 PM
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Both are excellent responces. I would fly him in the B team first and if he flys ok then he will be moved back to A team, otherwise, he will be taken out and not replaced.
Jay
Last Edited by on Dec 09, 2007 7:08 PM
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smoke747
111 posts
Dec 09, 2007
10:28 PM
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DEPENDING ON HOW MANY BIRDS THERE ARE IN THE KIT. IF THERE ARE 20 BIRDS I WOULD REMOVE HIM AND JUST ROLL WITH 19. IF I HAVE 17 OR LESS I WOULD ADD A PREFECT KITTER FROM ANOTHER KIT THAT ROLLS SHORT BUT IS A GOOD WORKER.
SMOKE747
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Ballrollers
993 posts
Dec 10, 2007
7:24 AM
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So nobody wants to take the chance with flying their best bird?
Cliff
Last Edited by on Dec 10, 2007 7:26 AM
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maxspin
136 posts
Dec 10, 2007
8:02 AM
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Cliff,
That is a hard call without knowing the bird.
Is this the first time that the bird has bumped?
Is this a bird that you always worry about when tweaking them before a fly?
I would be very concerned that the bird could not handle your pre-fly conditioning. Especially the fact that it was not eating. If you do decide to fly the bird, try to make sure that it eats with another kit. If you have time it would be advisable to fly with the B team to make sure that you do not have a deteriorating condition, and to make sure that it is not hurt.
To specifically answer your question…. The Deepest, most frequent cock birds in my kits have not been my most dependable. I always need to feed them up a little extra or they come down early, roll into the trees ect.
I would not take the chance and fly the bird. I hate the DQ.
Keith
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smoke747
113 posts
Dec 10, 2007
9:45 AM
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THE REASON I WOULDN'T FLY THE BIRD, YOU DON'T KNOW THE FULL EXTENT OF HIS INJURY. HE MAY LOOK OK BUT MIGHT BE SORE FROM HIS ACCIDENT. ONCE HE STARTS SPINNING THE PAIN MIGHT INCREASE AND HE MOST LIKELY WILL LEAVE THE KIT.
THIS HAS HAPPENED TO ME BEFORE.
SMOKE747
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RO
137 posts
Dec 10, 2007
2:56 PM
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I would just leave him out.It's happened to me before And I tried to substitute the bird with another from the B-team and the outcome was an out bird who brought another bird out with him my score took a big dent.I would stick with 19.You dont wonna mess the chemistry of the kit up by adding another bird in so close to your fly.
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Ro
Last Edited by on Dec 10, 2007 2:57 PM
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Skylineloft
534 posts
Dec 10, 2007
5:22 PM
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Cliff,
You said, quote, So nobody wants to take the chance with flying their best bird?
I think I said that if the bird does well with the b team the next day that I would take a chance on the bird.
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Ray
Breeding Quality Spinners,
"One Roller At A Time".
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Ballrollers
996 posts
Dec 10, 2007
6:43 PM
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All are good posts guys, and you raised valid points...I can see you are using your heads.
Ray/Jay...sorry, I missed your point completely about flying the bird in the A-kit on the final day to see how he responded.
Keith.....you are right about this cock. Though he rarely bumps, when he does so, it is during the preparation for a competition, but not always.
He is so good that what I chose to do was to rest him with the A-kit the day before the fly. He acted normal in the kit box so I took a chance and flew him. He was hurt more than he showed, because he hardly rolled during the fly....flew through every break. He wasn't out, so it didn't hurt me too bad, but he didn't add anything either. So I guess it was a lose/lose situation. The only other option I concidered seriously was to take him out and fly one less bird. Either way, I was down one bird. Adding a bird last minute was out of the question for the reasons that Ro posted.
Good work!
Cliff
Last Edited by on Dec 10, 2007 6:45 PM
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Ballrollers
997 posts
Dec 10, 2007
7:02 PM
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All right, are we ready for another one?
Again, it is the week before your competition....this time, the 11-bird. One of your best hens is getting heavy in the tail and body molt and lands early. You go to the kit box to select a bird to replace her, with only one or two practice flys left before the comp. What are your criteria for selection in the kit box, out of a couple birds? Cock or hen? A young bird or a holdover? A thin, but very frequent and fast 25 foot yearling hen that hits the feed tray when you feed? A fit young bird hen sitting on the top perch that is rarely out of her kit, steady performer, but not spectacular?....A fairly deep and fit holdover cock that tends to impress, but can bump if the kit does not elevate quickly?....You make the call and tell us why...
Cliff
Last Edited by on Dec 10, 2007 7:03 PM
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Skylineloft
538 posts
Dec 10, 2007
9:18 PM
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Cliff,
I would put the cock bird up in the team, but knowing I have 5 minuets to call time in I would wait for the kit to elevate and then hand toss the bird and wait Intel he gets to the kit and make sure there at a good hight before I call time in.
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Ray
Breeding Quality Spinners,
"One Roller At A Time".
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gotspin7
787 posts
Dec 11, 2007
4:40 AM
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I will chime in with Ray on this one!
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Sal Ortiz
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maxspin
137 posts
Dec 11, 2007
11:45 AM
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Cliff,
I would hate to put myself into that situation.
Prep with a min of 13 birds. I am always looking for the problem birds to pull leading up to a comp.
I have to have a backup plan all of the time. You never know when the Peregrines will take a key bird.
Keith
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