rollerman132
187 posts
Dec 05, 2007
2:20 PM
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I’ve noticed that birds that have a fast frequent pupil flex in the eyes, seem to be the most frequent in the air, What do you think?
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Deadendkid
149 posts
Dec 05, 2007
3:11 PM
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i believe in judging the birds in the air tail flex eye and all that other stuff is just a distraction from what the birds are suppose to be bred for and thats flying and spinning keep your eye in the sky when you fly birds and then you will see the right type if the birds have some quality and the person flying them has a little bit of common sence to feed and water the birds and when to fly dont just fly in horrible conditions like wind thats a rookie mistake i know i been there
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yang501424
65 posts
Dec 05, 2007
3:12 PM
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Good way to reach 2k posting. LOL
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rollerman132
190 posts
Dec 05, 2007
3:28 PM
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I’m not saying that 100% of the time, just most of the time, just my observation.
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1967 posts
Dec 05, 2007
7:50 PM
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Hey, you see what you see, you form an opinion based on observation of your birds, I am not going to say don't believe your lying eyes.
I used to not buy into "eye sign", once wrote an article or two about it. I have since began to think there is something to it, just based on close observation of my birds.
I am not so thick-headed to change my mind. If I can admit I was wrong, then it just means I am right now. lol
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
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rollerman132
191 posts
Dec 05, 2007
9:09 PM
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Tony
Eye sign is used to grad the eye according to the configuration of the inner circle. And used solely to estimate the birds capacity to produce offspring. What I’m describing is a vibration of the pupil when light hits the eye or when the bird blinks. I’m starting to believe that there is some type light to brain stimulus that triggers the bird to roll. Just thought it was worth bringing up, maybe I was wrong.
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GREED FOR SPEED LOFT
313 posts
Dec 05, 2007
10:36 PM
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Rollerman you may have something in your observation. I have noticed that a frequent roller has the eye that jitters alot . Some will say that there is no validation for eye sign , which I believe there is ,learning from Arnold Jackson, Michaeal curtis, YES Bob Maunder and a few others. One should do some studying and put it to the test and see the results.There will be alot of guys that will disagree, but have they REALLY did the study to disagree?
R-LUNA
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luis
380 posts
Dec 05, 2007
10:53 PM
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I've seen "pupil flex" in quite a few of my birds,but i'm to new to my birds to say if it's a factor in their ability or not.I think that some birds will have it and others will not or in other words not all good rollers will exhibit "pupil flex".I would like to think that to many capable roller men have written on the subject to simply discard it as mere myth.
Maybe in a few years(GOD willing),i can say more on the subject.Good Post.Makes for good reading and learning.
Last Edited by on Dec 05, 2007 10:58 PM
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CSRA
673 posts
Dec 06, 2007
2:40 AM
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Maybe some truth to the flex of the eye majority of my birds eye flex to a pin point i would like to understand that a little more
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ICEMAN710
78 posts
Dec 06, 2007
3:05 AM
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what would you say about a bird that has large pupils?
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Gary
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1973 posts
Dec 06, 2007
3:41 AM
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Hey rollerman, no, you are right, this is a good topic...please continue.
The roller pigeon is a versatile enough creature to please the guys who love competition, those that want to see a bird roll and those with a desire to "study" by taking the time to understand the bird and try to figure out why and how it does what it does.
The roller pigeon can be as deep or shallow as the person who has the opportunity experience it.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1974 posts
Dec 06, 2007
3:44 AM
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Didn't Ralph Hilton, a contemporary of Pensom, study this eye feature and write on it somewhere? Can anyone tell us what it was that Hilton was observing and his conclusions?
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
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GREED FOR SPEED LOFT
314 posts
Dec 06, 2007
6:06 AM
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Steve SSSMMMMIIITTHHHHHH,---- hey dude what up? The eye sign that you described,I- Hope- it is the one I'm interpeting.When I hold a bird or have held some birds to light ,rather in the sunlight.The birds eye(pupil) really shrinks to a very small dot,from my observations and concured with some . these birds had the trait of being more of the control factor.
R-LUNA
Tony---- you are right Hilton did write and studied on the eye sign and I believe that Kowalski did so also. I have read on there books, but it has been YEARS AGO. I need to find my books and refresh my memory.
R-LUNA
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rollerman132
193 posts
Dec 06, 2007
11:01 AM
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Richard
your description of jittering is right on the money. The first time I saw it, I thought my eyes where play tricks on me. It’s not a proven theory, so bare with me. I believe that key that opens the door to the roll is found in the eye. Have you ever noticed that you get the most roll when they first come out of the kit box. I know you all have heard stories of people who had seizures, after they where exposed to a bright flash of light. I believe that the body type can enhance the bird’s ability to roll, but feel that roll is brought on by neuro response to light. The ones that seem to have more control and frequency have eyes that jitter off and on more than once, after they blink or are exposed to a flash of light. I believe that the jitter in the eyes shows that it can turn the roll off and on at will. The ones that have a dead (no jitter) stair tell me they don’t have control to turn it off or on.
Last Edited by on Dec 07, 2007 12:16 PM
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Oldfart
283 posts
Dec 06, 2007
11:37 AM
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Now we are learning, if you believe great, if you don't that is also great! Point is, we are thinking, talking,
sharing and therefor learning.
Thom
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Oldfart
284 posts
Dec 06, 2007
4:04 PM
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O.K. I just spent an hour staring longingly into my birds eyes, now would someone tell me how to explain this behavior to my wife?:-) Seriously, I now understand what we are talking about and that is a start. I have a very limited amount of birds at this time as I am starting from just two pair of birds. I did notice that all the young from each pair reacted to a light stimulis like there parents. One pairs young seemed (I REPEAT) seemed to have a faster more dramatic eye flix, reflex, then the other pair. These are from the pair I have choosen for my foundation pair, for reasons of quality in the air, from kitting to style and form in the roll. I also take into consideration loft behavior, body shape, tail length,(I know) feather quality and on, and on and..... I don't pretend to know if eye flex means anything, but I do know the more we learn, the more we study, the better chance there will be that we improve.
JMHO, Thom
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rollerman132
194 posts
Dec 06, 2007
7:18 PM
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When light pass our eyes, or pupils get smaller to block out some the light, and stays small till the light passes. In the rollers eyes they seem to keep readjusting them self’s, after the light pass them or when they blink. They do it at such a fast pace, that it looks like the pupil is shaking or vibrating. Nothing will every take the place of flying our birds out, but maybe this will help understand why some birds come all the way down or not roll at all. If this helps anyone understand his or her birds better, I’m glad brought it up, if not what can I say.
Last Edited by on Dec 06, 2007 7:19 PM
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smoke747
94 posts
Dec 07, 2007
7:56 AM
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does pupil flex have anything to do with homing instinct?
ex or current homer guys may answer this question if they like.
smoke747
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fresnobirdman
257 posts
Dec 04, 2008
6:35 PM
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This is a interesting topic.
why did you guys abandon this topic?
i have come to notice that some of my birds are kind of slow at reacting to the light.
some are fast to reacting to the light in their eye.
why is this?
~~Fresnobirdman~~
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donnie james
64 posts
Dec 04, 2008
6:46 PM
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i'm a believer in the eye sign but ever one has their own opinion ................donny james
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RodSD
87 posts
Dec 04, 2008
6:52 PM
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Hey Rollerman132,
I still don't get what you are saying. Can you describe it more? It doesn't sound like an eye-sign that some eye-sign expert claims. It seems to be physiological to me. It is not like this, right:
"
5. HLREO: This means High Level La Verne Theory Rapid Eye Orientation. This means that if while holding your pigeon's head still and looking into its eye, your pigeon should be moving its pupil in multiple directions. If the pigeon's eye stays in the center, that is bad. I will not go into detail of why your pigeon should have good HLREO but you can research it to better understand what i'm saying.
(www.pigeons.biz)"
Or are you talking about how rapid the pupil reacts to lights? In humans, doctors flash those flashlight to your eye to see any response. If your pupil reacts, then you are still alive. If it stayed the same you are probably dead or brain dead or blind. Even though I've spent 6 months studying neuroscience back in College I didn't learn much because I was sleepy all the way and didn't remember much.
Nevertheless your idea is interesting. It kind of makes sense as well in that if a roller rolls that much it better have a good eye response to know where it is going. I am also supposing that it gets dizzy less. Because in humans the inner ear contains the mechanics to helps us retain balance I wonder if roller pigeons have even more pronounce internal ear. I, unfortunately, didn't take any avian course. So any avian expert?
Last Edited by on Dec 04, 2008 7:20 PM
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ROBERT RODRIGUEZ
27 posts
Dec 04, 2008
6:57 PM
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" LOOK FOR EXPRESSION IN THE EYES ITS A SIGN OF INTELLECTIONS" WITH EXPERIENCE IN OBSERVING YOURE PIGEONS YOU WILL LEARN TO RECOGNIZE EXPRESSION WHEN YOU SEE IT
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fresnobirdman
265 posts
Dec 04, 2008
8:36 PM
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so what type of eye is the good one?
the shaky one?
or the still one?
~~Fresnobirdman~~
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Spin City USA
136 posts
Dec 04, 2008
9:14 PM
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Good topic rollerman, I am one of those guys who may over analyze things. Some people say it works,some say it dosnt,some cant see what you are talking about. The main thing is if you observe traits, mental or physical in you your best spinners I think it should be documented. Certain traits are observable in different families. I was up in Boisie Id and the best birds I saw up there at that time came down off of the Telstar line and they all had longer beaks than the birds I was use to. And every loft we went to the best birds came from this one guys loft and they all had the longer beak. The same thing is probable with the eyes, head shape, shape of the wing,size,ect. I am not saying that these things will make one spin any better they just may be indicators in a certain family or strain and it a tool that the breeder can use if he has been observant.
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They gotta Spin to win.....Jay
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Scott
1322 posts
Dec 04, 2008
9:17 PM
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I don't know, I just fly them,they either are or aren't.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Shadow
296 posts
Dec 04, 2008
10:58 PM
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Its the Spincta Muscle that causes the pupil to flex as it reacts to all degrees of light and its surroundings, must be capable of changing in a millisecond of a human eye blink,due to the speed they move at,its like the humans equivalent of long and short sight,only at a much faster rate,this is an essential factor in all birds sight,and the constant rapidity of this pupil flexing may be a trigger in starting the roll,there are other physical/genetic attributes also required,at 14 days old,dark/dusk shine a torch in the youngsters eyes,watch the speed at which the pupil increases in size,the slower it increases,the less chance that bird has of been around at 2 year old,for many reasons,why if you can see for miles,do you need glasses to read the paper in front of your eyes, I examine birds eyes on a constant basis,but always in good sunlight,with a 15 X eye glass,Me I keep an open mind on most things until proven otherwise,theories/traits,what is a proven scientific fact,is that many illnesses,major and less so,appear and are recognisable in the eye,well before they have manifested themselves in the body,likewise with lots of pigeon ailments in the pigeons eyes,somebody once wrote"The eyes are the Mirror of the Soul"cant be sure about that,it does mirror lots,if we educate ourselves to recognise them
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Scott
1323 posts
Dec 05, 2008
7:56 AM
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Jay- isn't it how they develope those muscles ?
Here is by thought on all of this kind of stuff(pupal flex-tail flex ect.), there is nothing set in stone on these birds and they are in a constant state of changinging physicaly&mentaly.
If we went though and culled strictly on traits a bird may or may not have before the inpulse of the roll hits it then it would be a bonehead move.
On the other hand, come the middle of Spring I will cull out most of the strong cocks of the prior years breeding that aren't showing good potential because I know that it isn't coming.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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smoke747
1426 posts
Dec 05, 2008
8:03 AM
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Here is my thought on all of this kind of stuff(pupal flex-tail flex ect.), there is nothing set in stone on these birds and they are in a constant state of changinging physicaly&mentaly
Scott, I agree.
My thought fast pupil = quick reaction time = equal kit sensetivity. jmo
smoke747
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Keith London
ICRC
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spinningdemon
35 posts
Dec 05, 2008
1:42 PM
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Greeting guys and gals,
In Kowalskies book there is a whole chapter on eye sign and even how to build a light box to help veiw it. Also in his book he tells of Ralph Hiltons expeiences with it.
The first time I heard of eye sign was over at Paul Bradfords home he told me that A fast flex pupil is the sign of a frequent bird. I went right home and looked at the eyes of my birds and found the more frequent birds did have a fast flexing pupil.
I tried to pick it from my young kit birds but it is harder to find in younger birds. I also found that itis not a gaurentee as I have seen many spinners that did not have a fast flexing pupil.
I use it just as a clue to pick pairs I try to match fast with fast etc. But even with this mating not all young have a fast flexing pupil.
Pick the best from the air and then the pairs from there.
David Curneal
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Spin City USA
138 posts
Dec 05, 2008
3:26 PM
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Scott, you are born or hatched with those different types of muscle,and you do have to work them to have them develope them to their full potential.
all of this kind of stuff(pupal flex-tail flex ect.), there is nothing set in stone on these birds and they are in a constant state of changinging physicaly & mentaly. This is true, but I do believe these are just observations that can be found in some strains or families. If you see it and you have enough samples to verify it fine, even then it is not written in stone. I like to look for things like that and if it shows up as it has in sibilings fine, if it dont so what, if it is a good bird either way great. If its a cull, its a cull.
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They gotta Spin to win.....Jay
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PR_rollers
GOLD MEMBER
2071 posts
Dec 05, 2008
3:30 PM
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Even if they born blind.. but they gotta spin to win right Jay...
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Ralph
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Spin City USA
139 posts
Dec 05, 2008
3:52 PM
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10-4
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They gotta Spin to win.....Jay
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rockx.559
139 posts
Dec 05, 2008
4:30 PM
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I dont know about the eye sign but do kinda believe about the tail flex stuff and it has to do with the back muscle of the bird...anyways why I said that is cuz I got this big big roller...I thought it was getting to its career has a show roller but still rolls deep and fast...it's about the roll genes...
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rollerman132
326 posts
Dec 05, 2008
4:51 PM
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Why do people always grab a bird from the show pen and look at its eyes if theirs nothing to see? I’m not trying to preach some type of new religion, just trying to share my observation. If you have blind birds or ones with crests, who am I to burst you bubble LMAO.
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Velo99
1975 posts
Dec 05, 2008
6:58 PM
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OK guys,
Heres my two cents worth. The pupil reaction time is related to reaction time and reflexes. Old timers will pull out a wing and see how fast the bird pulls it back in. Same thing with the pupil. I guess if you look at enough eyes you will eventually get a "database" to have a starting point of good and bad eyes.
The show guys are looking for a centered round pupil with an even "legal" color,some birds are only supposed to have certain colors. The cere is also examined. A bird with a large cere is easier to assess its health by the color and tone of the cere.
jmho
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V99
blue sky single beat
in cadance performing now
earth beckons the winged
drawn breath is let quickly forth
orchestral movement follows
___ ~_____
\__\_/-|_| \__\____
/()_)__48___()_)\__\
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spinningdemon
43 posts
Dec 06, 2008
2:56 PM
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I was hoping to see more on this topic any other eydeas?
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David Curneal
Performance breeds since 1973
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fhtfire
1700 posts
Dec 06, 2008
3:45 PM
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I have noticed in my birds the exact same thing from the best birds.....Eldon brought something up to me while handling my birds....he said this is a good bird...feel the head vibrate...I was like WTF....and sure enough....I rested my finger on the birds head it was freaking vibrating...and that bird had the eye that bouced flexed whatever you call it.....It felt like I was holding an electric razor to hits head....anyway.....
I have also found that my best birds are more alert in the hand...meaning when I hold them in the hand...my best birds will have the head extended looking around...like they are trying to figure things out....the birds that are not as good...tuck the head or only bring it half way up...kind of like they are scared.....
But as Scott said...these are all signs and things that traits that you can use overall....I would never pick a bird for stock unless I saw it in the air and it proved itself....and it appears that most that I pick carry all the traits.....They have the tail flex....they have the vibrating head (most).....they extend the neck and look around while in the hand....and they have that look on the perch....like I am a Bad ass mofo....not to mellow...not to high strung...and when they walk they walk with authority...like the German Army...you know...the Hitler walk....kicking the legs up when they walk..like they are marching....anyway....it is just some added features to the whole picture...
The fact of the matter is...you still need to fly them out....
rock and ROLL
Paul
And even that is not a guarantee they will make it in the stock loft...
rock and ROLL
Paul
Last Edited by on Dec 06, 2008 3:47 PM
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rollerman132
327 posts
Dec 06, 2008
5:47 PM
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Paul
You’re exactly right there is no substitute for flying your birds out before you stock them. When I look at a bird’s eye it lets me know what I might expect from that birds performances before it starts rolling. It’s just like looking for the presents of narrow primary flights or feeling its body for the keel length or pitch. I’ve seen birds with off center pupils roll just as good as those with perfectly centered pupils. The greatest teacher is your own observations. Everyone has some type of theory when it comes to birds; all you have to do is listen.
Last Edited by on Dec 06, 2008 5:49 PM
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