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The Original All Roller Talk Discussion Board Archive >
Invention needed to measure velocity
Invention needed to measure velocity
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ezeedad
153 posts
Dec 11, 2007
9:24 PM
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Tony,
WOW...!!! That's the closest thing yet... Seems like it
would work on something that spins at the same speed and
for a long enough time to make the adjustments.. but it's
better than anything I've come up with yet..
I have an example of what they are doing with radar.
Ray, I would like to see you get another patent.. on this !!
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Shaun
545 posts
Dec 12, 2007
12:12 AM
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I'm definitely with the video camera - or, more to the point - cameras. The technology is very mature and relatively cheap, so multiple cameras can be used. They can record not only velocity, but style and kitting. Although the frames per second recording is still a relatively slow 25 to 30 frames, when the footage is slowed down, it's quite sufficient to count the number of revolutions a bird performs and indeed how many birds are performing at the same time, from the break perspective.
The biggest problem is the difficulty in properly videoing rollers. Certainly, the higher they go, the more difficult it becomes. However, judges, when simply relying on their own eyesight, have difficulty scoring when a kit elevates too high, or indeed disappears out of sight.
Videoing, although difficult, is not impossible. Perhaps the day will come when a judge, for an important fly, will be accompanied by someone with a multi-camera setup, who has the requisite skill to record the kit performing from various angles, to best judge quality as well as velocity. Once the footage is viewed on editing software, it's pretty straightforward to count revolutions per second. However, given that rolling style is also very important to the judging of a kit, being able to slow everything down is a big plus. It's easy to see the likes of wing position and whether the kit is waterfalling on the breaks.
The problem most people have when videoing birds is to home in on the whole kit. That view would still be required for one of the cameras, because it could demonstrate the likes of kitting, out birds, waterfalling and early landing. Other cameras would focus closer on sections of the kit (this is much harder), to establish velocity and style.
Given that birds are expected to perform before the eyes of a judge for 20 minutes, video cameras can gather much more information for later examination. With this cheap, existing technology (limited mainly by the lack of skill of the operator) when someone boasts about his family's roller performance, he has a means to prove it!
I believe that the roller community is letting itself down by not making more of an effort to record our rollers. Imagine what it would be like to compare Pensom's stock with the birds of today, had a keen videographer (or should that have been cineographer, given the era?) recorded what was going on. As many old timers pass on, their lifetime's efforts are often left as just heresay, or to argue over. What we need is facts. Surely it would be worth the cost to our largest roller organisations, to acquire footage on the important flies to closely examine and look back on.
Shaun
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Skylineloft
547 posts
Dec 12, 2007
8:38 AM
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Shaun,
You bring up many valid points about video taping our birds in flight. I brought this up last year as a possible video single bird competition that was quickly shot down. After much debate in this area, I did end up agreeing with the ones that said that it just would not work as a competition. BMC had many good reasons why this would not work as a competition. But, to use this system for finding out who your fastest spinners are in the air is still the cheapest and most affective way developed today. Video tape the bird and count how many times it rolled in one second, that simple. That tells you everything you need to know about how fast the bird is spinning. Some have said that they have recorded birds spinning up to 14 times per second, INCREDIBLE. Try it in your backyard sometime, its challenging, but real fun and much cheaper then trying to develop a chip that you mount to a bird.
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Ray
Breeding Quality Spinners,
"One Roller At A Time".
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Shaun
546 posts
Dec 12, 2007
9:10 AM
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Ray, video is part of what I do for a living, so I've made a few attempts at videoing my rollers. It isn't easy, but I know that with practice most people could do a reasonable job - especially if one person took a wide view of the whole kit, whilst one or more others took video of sections of the kit. You can't get too close in, because if the birds roll, they quickly drop out of camera view and it's then murder trying to follow them. I've found that I can home in on a group of around half a dozen birds and follow their action. The camera itself has to be set up so that the sky doesn't overly influence exposure whereby the birds look black due to the brightness of the sky. Nicely sunlit birds are the best to video - until, that is, the camera follows them around until they're in front of the sun, when the birds go black. Ideally, the lighting should be flat, which happens when the sun is behind a continuous light cloud covering.
Brian and I have been part of discussions before about videoing. Jim Schneider is well up on this and had established that a much higher level of video camera is available to hire, though they are expensive. I think he mentioned $250 per day. However, such specialist cameras can record many more frames per second, and are used to record and playback in quality slow motion, say, a golf swing or the wing movements of a humming bird. So, the technology does exist; it's just that the roller world has not yet collectively seen fit to use it.
Shaun
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J_Star
1456 posts
Dec 12, 2007
9:56 AM
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Simply because the roller community are not big spenders.
Jay
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ezeedad
154 posts
Dec 12, 2007
10:04 AM
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Shaun,
Thanks for taking part in our conversation. I agree
that the revolutions can be counted using video. In fact,
the editing, counting and such could probably be done
while traveling from one competitor to the next. As you
describe, however, the camera cannot completely take the
place of the judge, because of problems of birds dropping
out of the frame, flying in front of the sun, etc.
Having a good historical record of our rollers is a
really good plan. Pensom did film his birds. We should
also look into transfering those images into the current
dvd format before we lose them. I would suggest that our
clubs should make some effort to build video archives..and
that local clubs contribute these to the NBRC, and other
large clubs.
But I feel that we should try to further refine our
abilities to evaluate our birds, and to judge them. If our
birds can be judged in real time, with in instantaneous
feedback for velocity and depth, using remote sensing or
radar, then further evaluated for style using video it
would advance our hobby and combine the best of both
technologies.
I also agree with Ray, that we should certainly use
video for individual bird competition. Focusing on only
one bird is much easier than the whole kit.
Paul
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ezeedad
156 posts
Dec 12, 2007
1:52 PM
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Tony,
I e-mailed Miniature Aircraft, the company that makes the Optical Tachometer, and asked them about their products' suitability. I also told them about our discussion here, hoping that they might help us answer questions and provide us with solutions. Hope it's OK..
Paul..
Last Edited by on Oct 29, 2008 4:03 PM
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2002 posts
Dec 12, 2007
4:49 PM
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Hey dad, AWESOME! I called today and the guy said his device would work but it would only measure no less than 1000RPM's...We would have to be able to get something to step down the RPM's. How about the device you posted.
What can you tell us about it? I noticed 500RPM's??
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
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ezeedad
157 posts
Dec 12, 2007
8:05 PM
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Tony,
The device I posted last was the one you told us about. I don't have any RPM information about anything else.
So if you have already talked to the guy were back at square 1.
Paul
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