rollerpigeon1963
208 posts
Dec 16, 2007
8:17 AM
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Do you guys/gals breed from a large amount of breeders or a select few? And how many rounds do you like to get from each pair during your breeding season? Do you raise a few late rounds and if you do what do you use them for?
I don’t think I raise from a large amount of breeders I usually put 10 to 12 pairs together. I usually put 5 pair together from my Billings/Campbell family. And the rest is what other family I’m working with. The only draw back to this is you can’t get a kit per round from your breeders. See I have 5 pairs from my main family. And all I can get at one time is 10 squeekers. I can get those in the air but then I have to add another 10 from the next round. They will be weaker and harder to catch up with the others. So do you think about getting a kit from each round when you breed? So that way you can fly a kit per round? Or do you hold some back or add some to the stronger birds? Do you think about this?
My breeding season is short and I usually try and breed around 100 birds. But I usually raise around 80 birds. Now if you think of it this way if you raise 80 birds from lets say 10 pairs. That’s roughly 4 rounds from each pair of birds. 8 birds are going to be your tools on how well you done in the breeding loft.
How important are these little 8 birds? With the window we have to fly in and the BOP taking birds left and right. Where does that leave us when it comes to selecting for the following years breeders? With these 8 little birds how many will be flown in the same kit? Because you and I both know that each kit is different in many ways. A lot of this depends on there feed, and weather conditions, and flying conditions. For example if you start flying in April and you try and get them out everyday. And the winds are so bad it keeps them locked in a few extra days from time to time. The weather is usually damper and they don’t take as much water. The feed is regulated with the weather and flying time. Now take the next round the weather is a little dryer and warmer. Might take a little more water and the birds are able to fly everyday. Just a slight difference than the first round but it does make them do different things. Now what about the birds you get out in June. The weather is warmer and the take in a lot more water. Some might get filled on water and not eat as much feed which will allow others to even eat more. So if you have 4 birds from the same pair in one kit. Half of your breeding information will be riding on the first kit. How old will they be when you lock them up? Or will you fly them until you can’t afford to loose any more.
Now if you fly them and loose 2 of the 4 from the first kit where will you be in your decision for next years breeders?
What I’m really getting at what do you put into your breeding selection from year to year. So if you loose ½ of your breeding information due to BOP what do you do the following year.
What do you tell the new guys about breeding and selecting their brood stock. Do you tell them to breed from young unproven birds to get the most from their new birds? Is this really going to help them? Or do you tell them to raise as much as they can from the stock they have. And only breed from proven birds in the air since they have no clue about their new stock.
Just something to chew on and see what kind of replies we get.
Best of luck Brian Middaugh
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Velo99
1461 posts
Dec 16, 2007
8:31 AM
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Hey Slim,
Good to see you bud.
In this type of situation I would think this is where the necessity of inbreeding is called into play. The more of the same genes you get into the mix the more of them you see on display.
I would think once you get several generations of genes into the pot and start using the off`s bred back to the parents and grandparents you could feasibly have a kit off the "same pair" in the air pretty close to the same age. The birds coming up thru a little tougher conditions do seem to be stronger and develop faster. Maybe A/C cranked down to 50? j/k.
yits
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V99
Keep the best. Eat the rest.
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luis
399 posts
Dec 16, 2007
8:44 AM
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Good post Brian.I would really like some info on this as well as this is my #1 problem.I have some ideas but as you know "2 heads are better than 1" !!
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Oldfart
323 posts
Dec 16, 2007
8:50 AM
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Hey Brian, My breeding program is small and will have to remain so due to the closeness of my neighbor's. I plan on linebreeding only a few pair, four pair at the most with fosters to maxamize the effort. I hope to raise two kits of twelve to sixteen birds each. Fly these for as long as possible and as hard as possible. My hope is that with holdover birds I will eventually have a good kit. Not much help with your questions I know, but I guess there are a lot of breeders in my posistion.
Thom
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rollerpigeon1963
209 posts
Dec 16, 2007
12:16 PM
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Ok,
Here is my take on someone who is new to the hobby or a first year with your new birds. I might be way off base here but this is what I have done and gave fare judgment.
1. I believe you need at least 4 to 5 pairs to start with and a few years. I would breed as many as I can the first year and try your best to get them in the air as long as you can. Take plenty of notes what you see in all of the birds. Make notes which ones want to sit in trees or don’t want to kit. Write this stuff down in a note book so you will not forget what you see. You have to be honest with yourself when you’re making these notes. In your notes make sure you write down how old they are when they are doing what.
2. Keep the breeders together during the entire year. Don’t try and break them up and switch them up. Get as many as you can from each pair. This will give you a better idea what they are producing.
3. If you can use fosters please use fosters this will help you out in the long run. More of the babies you are wanting closer in age.
4. Now I’m not one that likes to stock birds after the first year of flying. But use common sense when you are making your notes. If you have an outstanding bird doing some good rolls. And have the traits that you are looking for then Lock that bird up and not feed it to the BOP’s.
5. In the 4 or 5 pairs you have together find out which pairs are doing what in the air. If you only have one pair that is throwing the goods your off to a good start. If you have a couple of pairs that is working for you on your first year then you have a better start.
Now when it comes to the second year I would fly the top young birds from last year. See if they only get better and keep the traits you are wanting. I know that mine get better the older they get. I mean they get tighter and better style. Maybe from a high X to an H pattern and more frequent. This is also the time where I can play with the feed {Second year} because I don’t like cutting the feed on young birds. And I can see how well they handle the feed changes and flying time.
Now if you choose to breed the young bird after one year of flying I would like to put the father to his daughter or mother to her son. Try this and see what you can produce from these mating.
The second year is another test year switch up the birds you have left from the original birds you had the year before. And repeat the entire process again. Make plenty of notes and remember your out to improve from year to year never breed nothing that will set you back.
Now the third year things will be interesting for you. You have the notes from the past two years that will be the best thing in your loft. You will have an idea what is doing what and what to breed to what. You can still switch up a few of the original pairs. Now you also have some good birds that are two years old that can play a role in your breeding loft. And the sky is the limit what you can do with the birds you have in the loft.
But the key in having a successful loft is “you have to be honest with yourself” and cull for the same reasons. Not every family is for you, you might have to find one that will work for you. They have to work for you in your feeding conditioning, and flying schedule. But with a lot of work and great notes you will be off to a great start.
Like I said this might be way off base but it has helped me.
Brian Middaugh
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W@yne
818 posts
Dec 16, 2007
12:33 PM
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Brian
A novice wont go far wrong from that fine advice above that you have just gave.
Its great to see you back posting Brian Like i said before we sure have missed having you around.
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Regards
W@yne UK
Patience Perseverance Perfection
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Oldfart
325 posts
Dec 16, 2007
12:46 PM
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Brian, You have just affirmed all that I had gleamed from two years of study from the best this site has. You nailed my first, and now second breeding season. I hope my plan works as good as your stated observational plan.
Thanks, Thom
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bob
70 posts
Dec 16, 2007
2:15 PM
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Hi Brian good post, i am glad to see you back as yours & Scots were always the posts i read first & found them to always have good common sense information. Keep up the good work. Bob in Ont
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sundance
333 posts
Dec 16, 2007
2:25 PM
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Whoa there Brian. Take a deep breath there, heck I`m winded just reading all the thoughts that you just put in print.LOL
I`m actually working with 3 families this year, so we`re about on the same page. 1 of them is strictly individual pen breeders. 5 pair of Hendersons I got from My buddy Tapp. 3 pair of my Jacs are in breeding cages, and 3 pair of my family are in individual cages as well. I also have 2 pair of jacs in an open loft and 2 pair of my family in a different open loft.
All this said, like you I will only get 10 young at best from each round, from each family. Here is where we differ. I dont fly them seperately for very long. I will fly them seperate for a while but on the 5th set some will start to be in mixed groups, cause I will be out of kitboxs. Of course , the best performers will be 1 kit, and so on. By the end of the summer I hope to be down to 2 or 3, 20 bird kits, at the most. Depending on culling and other "losses".
The last 2 years I didnt raise nearly enough and had to fly whatever I had,just to help support the flys. This year I hope to raise at least 100 young. First round is in eggs now. Will mostly hatch around Christmas week. In the air by the end of February. Lots of notes to figure out who is producing. My best usually come from the first 2 rounds, but I think that is just due to more air time, and being the first young of the year I tended to pay more attention to them. My bad.I do usually have some late hatchs that I try to fly all year. If the BOPs dont bother me too much... I`m flying some late hatchs and a few holdovers now, some of them are really starting to impress me.
Did I cover it all? I think I lost myself....LOL
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Butch @
Sundance Roller Lofts
Last Edited by on Dec 16, 2007 2:31 PM
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sac_spinners
214 posts
Dec 16, 2007
2:44 PM
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Great post Brian!!!
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NCRC (Northern California Roller Club)
Chor V
Last Edited by on Dec 16, 2007 8:40 PM
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Donny James
192 posts
Dec 16, 2007
3:05 PM
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brian,i'm breeding from 4 pairs now do to hawks and cats and giving some away i'm fly about 10 now and their doing the job for me i can stock now and breed from them i'm planing to stock a few of them to make few more pairs so i can get more young birds each year my bredding season wasn't all that great in years pass so i'm hoping to get on track this year and rase a mass of young birds.....................donny james
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PR_rollers
270 posts
Dec 16, 2007
6:02 PM
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Great post Brian,,this will put a novice ahead of his game.
The most important part I like what you said was keeping notes.keep records of performance I have read many times, old timers saying I wish in the beginning I would had kept more notes .....Monty Neible, was one of them who said ,The biggest mistake I ever made was not keep good records...... and i like the part when you said you would need 5 pairs to start with and a few years...."You can't expect to be successful the first year"... Glad you posting here people can learn from you because you have a good way of expressing yourself ,without putting folks down,and that make's one open his mind and learn instead of shutting it..Thx..
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Ralph....
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Mount Airy Lofts
323 posts
Dec 16, 2007
8:05 PM
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Brian,
First off, this is just a hobby to me and I don't have the time to fly kits after kits after kits out. As this is just one of many other hobbies that I choose to endeavor in. The most I have put together thus far are 4 pairs. Add another 4 foster pairs to that and it makes for a total of 8 pairs. Don't get me wrong, if I had enough ideal birds, I would scrap my fosters and go with just 6-8 proven breeding pairs max. In a typical round, I would be able to push out 13-16 youngsters if the fosters didn't abandon any rounds. The usual 3 rounds is all I have time for. Enough for two full kits.
I usually split my first and second rounds off to a good friend to fly out. This way if I lose a bird, I will still be able to evaluate the pair from the nest mate residing in my friend's kit. Him and I share rounds quite often and usually fly full bros and sisters to one another. This benefits most when an over fly occurs.
I am enjoy this hobby most when I keep my numbers down. I have found that 2 kits works best for me with the time I can afford/wife will let me have.
After the culls, roll downs, winter kills, BOP kills, over flies, and MIAs I usually will move 5 solid performers to add on to my old bird kit the following Spring. Is 5 out of 30 a good number?
Keeping it real,
Thor
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DUCKS N ROLLERS
89 posts
Dec 16, 2007
9:21 PM
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Brian,
i am one of those first year guys, and i have to say that your post is very helpfull, good to see that my basic plans are along the lines of what your telling us.
thanks for your posts.
mike barry.
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Electric-man
951 posts
Dec 16, 2007
11:04 PM
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Glad to see you with us again, Brian! I've always payed close attention to your post!
I also am trying to work within these guidelines! This is my second year with these new families! Hoping to start making progress this year! Keep speading that savy around!
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Val
"Site Moderator"
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gotspin7
830 posts
Dec 17, 2007
4:41 AM
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Brian, let me start by saying it is all about quality versus quantity in my loft, it is all about percentages!LOL, I have 16 pairs that I use,I have what you would call a double duty cage, I use it as my break up as well,LOL. I usually breed 6 rounds out of them, I have been trying to catch up! I just started all over again a couple years ago, (breeding and flying comps) took a little break when I first moved were I live now just I concentrated on work, Ok enough rambling!LOL, I have been collecting these birds since 2001 and they are all realated. I have 4 kits out of 7 this year thanks to the (bop's) next year I am looking at only going 4 rounds that gives me a good reason to build another double kit box,LOL
Rigth now I am flying my birds for as long as I can before they replace the one's in the stock loft, my stock loft has a revolving door if they do not come with the goods they are on their way out!LOL, I only stock what I need. Wow that was a long one!LOL
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Sal Ortiz
Last Edited by on Dec 17, 2007 6:30 AM
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maxspin
140 posts
Dec 17, 2007
7:59 AM
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Brian,
I run a relatively small operation.
I have (6) pair of breeders and (6) pair of fosters.
I pick the (3) pair of breeders that I have the most hope for, and use the fosters for those (3) pair. That allows me to get a relatively quick (3) rounds out of my most important stock birds.
I have been breeding around (75) young per year. I have noticed that I rarely get anything useful from the last kitbox filled. This year I plan to fill only (2) kitboxes (50). That will allow me to get just a little more air time, and hopefully they will be a little farther along before lockdown.
Keith
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Ballrollers
1003 posts
Dec 17, 2007
8:12 AM
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Hey, Brian!
Good to see you back in the game, my friend. Great post. It pretty much described my last three years in rollers. And it was effective in producing a number of quality birds from which to select for competitions, propelling me to the top levels of competition, quickly. This year I have decimated my comp kits to pair up father/daughter and mother/son combinations for the tightly inbred part of the pretzel weave in my breeding program. Next year, I hope to go out to cousin and half bros/sister pairings.
I was especially interested in your comments about the impact of the number and timing of our pairings, on the success of our kits. I am amazed at the difference between my eight kits, all being fed the same....flown at the same times.....and coming from the same parents. I usually try to get a full kit or more (24-26) per round to plan for losses. It is definitely a numbers game. I think it would be difficult for someone raising only a kit or two to maintain a competitive edge, in todays's environment in the hobby. It makes a real difference when you have 40-50 birds that are spinning, that you can select from.
YITS,
Cliff
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maxspin
141 posts
Dec 17, 2007
8:56 AM
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40-50 spinners to choose from……. Your killing me!!!
I have never been able to get 20 that rolled to any degree.
No I do not feel that I am operating at the most competitive level with the number of birds that I am able to raise each year, but I feel that I must balance my life. My kids are the most important thing in my life right now, and the birds will always take a back seat to their needs.
Keith
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tapp
492 posts
Dec 17, 2007
8:57 AM
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Good to here from you Brian. I'm doing as Cliff . I pulled my best 2 A team birds and put them back on father daughter/ mother son.And one pair of breeders that produced the best I have from last year. Thats just three pair for the winter in my shop. were it's always 50Deg. I will return the A team birds to the kits for W/C and Fall fly again. Can't win if they are pened up!Then I'll do as Cliff discribed next season! Then this spring I will pair my same pairs as last year. Then year after that I will see whats happening and adjust some pairs around. and by then have pikced a few pair of my best kit birds to try. It take's years!!! But like fine wine, It takes time!!
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Tapp
Last Edited by on Dec 17, 2007 9:02 AM
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Mount Airy Lofts
324 posts
Dec 17, 2007
9:07 AM
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Keith,
I guess you and I are in the same boat here...
Thor
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Ballrollers
1004 posts
Dec 17, 2007
10:18 AM
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Tapp,
Yep...sounds like we are on similar programs at this point. I hope these birds will shape up after they have bred a few rounds. How many rounds are you hoping to get from your A-kit birds?
Keith,
Those kinds of numbers will allow us to keep the bar raised high on quality. If you only have a few , we are forced to use what we have even if it's not quite what we want to see. By the time I give some birds away, suffer some losses, and weed through all the crap, I always hope to end up with at least one kit of solid performers, and hopefully get rid of the last year's B-kit. Some of the other guys in the area have their breeding stock set and can get those kinds of numbers by breeding far fewer birds...it's definitely a percentages game. In those initial years, we are lucky to get 10%..then 20% and we hope to continue improving our program as Brian has described. But you are correct...family comes first.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Dec 17, 2007 10:19 AM
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tapp
493 posts
Dec 17, 2007
1:53 PM
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Cliff I hope to get two rounds before I have to refly the A team birds I'm not using any fosters because of room in my shop. I wish I had room for 6 pair of fosters! Because as you Know you never know about first time young birds and hatch rate!!I don't know if I have time for three.Take care Cliff!----------
Tapp
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PR_rollers
GOLD MEMBER
2809 posts
Apr 01, 2009
7:30 PM
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lol @ Keith"40-50 spinners to choose from……. Your killing me!!!
I have never been able to get 20 that rolled to any degree.
Great post guys..........
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Ralph.
miss opportunity are the curse of potential well if opportunity is not knocking you build the door...
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PR_rollers
GOLD MEMBER
3458 posts
Nov 08, 2009
5:39 PM
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Thought I bring this around again .its a great post and some of you that are still here can look back from the 2 yrs of your post.me this year has been my best I can finally look up to the sky with a big smile and say I'm really enjoying myself..
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Ralph.
Pigeons are not our whole life, but they damn sure make our lives whole!" ~
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JMUrbon
762 posts
Nov 08, 2009
6:41 PM
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Brian good to hear from you. I have always felt that percentages are better than sheer numbers. I breed from 6 to 9 pairs and usually go 4-6 rounds per pair. I dont believe you can prove out a pair unless you put at least 8 young in the air out of them. Anyway good to hear from you. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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rookie from ct
GOLD MEMBER
165 posts
Nov 09, 2009
8:23 AM
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To get birds closer in age for your kit box pull eggs after breeders lay, hold for 5 day (turning 3 times per day) foster those eggs then the breeders will lay again in 5 more day out of 6 pair of breeders and 6 pair of fosters,. and fake eggs with a lot of luck you can get 24 birds close to 5 days apart.Lots of Luck Dennis
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