John
123 posts
Dec 20, 2007
11:49 AM
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If you mate a cock or hen to lets say 3 different birds in your program and it throws a high % of good ones on one of the 3 birds. Do you keep them together and make them your click pair? or do you continue to breed them to other birds you may have in your program? Do you change mates every year or stick with old matings. Why or why not?
John
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Skylineloft
607 posts
Dec 20, 2007
11:58 AM
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John,
I would move on from the bird because it did not hit a high percentage on all three.
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Ray
Breeding Quality Spinners,
"One Roller At A Time".
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J_Star
1510 posts
Dec 20, 2007
12:23 PM
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I will make them a click pair. If you have a cock that throws high % on all 3 hens, then you have a cock that is a champion of champions and you know that they are far and in between, so settle for what you have. You have more than some other fanciers.
I have a pair that I still to this date keep them together due to the high percentage of good ones. Never tried to break them up and try them on others due to the fact I have others in the loft to do that with.
Also consider looking at the hens one more time. This time consider the selection based on how they look on the ground rather than out of the air since you have established a stud of stable, high velocity spinners …Mates should possess similar qualities, especially as regards expression of character. Since color or shades of color are closely allied to character, it is to your best advantage to give much consideration in this direction.
Jay
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hectorvicki2003@yaho
133 posts
Dec 20, 2007
12:28 PM
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If all 3 hens have produced high with other cocks,i would question the cock you are working with.
I put my #1 cock on 4 diferent hens in his 10 years,only 1 of those hens did not produce what i expected,the young where very late in coming in and they where short in the roll,i tryed that hen on 3 diferent cocks and only prodiced good once from 1 cock,needless to say,i got rid of that hen,no matter how nice her pedegree was.
I did stock her daughter becouse that bird was an exeptional spinner but im going to mate it to the father this year.
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Hector Coya
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ROLLERMAN
190 posts
Dec 20, 2007
12:29 PM
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Maybe it,s the hen that has the goods and not the cock.
i have pair of mason bird there both 99s. the 1st year i tryed the cock on 4 different hens click on one hen. found out it was the hen. problem is there young perform great but they suck in the breeding loft.
al
Last Edited by on Dec 20, 2007 12:36 PM
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Skylineloft
609 posts
Dec 20, 2007
12:35 PM
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Exactly Al,
If the bird only hit one out of three mating, I would look at what its mate did on the other birds that I had mated it to. If that bird showed you that it was still hitting at a high percentage, move on from that other bird that did not.
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Ray
Breeding Quality Spinners,
"One Roller At A Time".
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John
124 posts
Dec 20, 2007
12:54 PM
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Ray,Guys
So are you saying that the bird should produce on every thing in your program? Now how do we know that the cock or hen wouldn't produce the goods on other birds in your program? Lets just say you had 12 cocks and the bird produced a very high % on one cock but produced a few good ones on the other two.That's just 3 out of the 12. Would move on from the bird or try her on a few more cocks? There are still 9 cocks remaiming and how do we know that this birds wouldn't produce the goods any of the other cocks? I think 3 lets say out 3 of 12 is to low of a % to move on from the hen so soon. What do you guys to say?
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Skylineloft
610 posts
Dec 20, 2007
12:57 PM
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Well I guess if you have the time and space to try the bird out on 12 different birds, why not!!!!!!!
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Ray
Breeding Quality Spinners,
"One Roller At A Time".
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CSRA
830 posts
Dec 20, 2007
12:59 PM
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John i always switch my matings i have never kept the same pair down for 2 seasons but i might start you never know good post
Last Edited by on Dec 20, 2007 2:35 PM
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Skylineloft
611 posts
Dec 20, 2007
1:28 PM
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John,
I think what we are looking for are those prepotant birds to breed around because they will tend to breed you more birds that are prepotant and so on. They will breed you good birds no matter what you put them on. If that bird is still one of the better producer in your loft it would not make since to get rid of the bird, but as you know John, there are so many good birds out there today, you might be better off moving on from a bird like that and trying something else in that birds place.
Breed hard and cull hard in and out of the stock pen.
Just my own opinion John.....
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Ray
Breeding Quality Spinners,
"One Roller At A Time".
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Snake Doctor
101 posts
Dec 20, 2007
5:39 PM
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Please excuse my ignorance I haven't bred any birds yet,but are we talking about the high percentages as in the fertility eggs or are we talking the high percentage of offspring that perform up to standards in the air?
The word prepotant is throwing me, please define.
Is it possible that there exists a bird, cock or hen sooooooooo gooood that it produces good spinners no matter what the quality the other bird is?
I don't see how that could be, but if it is I want one!
SD
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Electric-man
963 posts
Dec 20, 2007
5:48 PM
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I'll chime in with Jay! At least get some rounds out of them and then maybe breed some youngsters back to the parents and see what happens!
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Val
"Site Moderator"
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Skylineloft
613 posts
Dec 20, 2007
6:30 PM
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SD,
Let me try to explain. Assuming that you are breeding out of quality stock and that your birds are closely related, (This can sometimes take years to get to this point in your loft), you are now trying to find out what birds seem to breed the best for you no matter what birds you put them on. Once you find the birds that are prepotant, you will want to breed towards these birds because they have the potential to breed you more birds that will give you a high percentage of rollers. If there youngsters produce the same, and are as prepotant, you now have a real good direction to breed towards in your loft. Thats why you will here allot about inbreeding and line breeding. This has nothing to do with how many fertile eggs a pair might give you. IM sure there are many more on this site that could explain this better then I can and there is still allot more to breeding good birds then just that, (I still have allot to learn) but I hope this helps.
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Ray
Breeding Quality Spinners,
"One Roller At A Time".
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Snake Doctor
104 posts
Dec 20, 2007
6:48 PM
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Thanks Ray, let me see if I am begining to get it...... very overly simplified , what you are breeding for is an athleticisim, personality and appearance in rollers the sum total being that any bird from this line would perform alike in the air, act alike in the loft/hand, and look alike?
SD
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Skylineloft
614 posts
Dec 20, 2007
6:57 PM
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Yes,
I would say that that is true.
Families that are closely related act alike and work much better in the air together as a team. Its much easier to train a team of birds all from the same family then it is to bring in allot of different birds.
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Ray
Breeding Quality Spinners,
"One Roller At A Time".
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smoke747
255 posts
Dec 21, 2007
12:10 AM
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IF I GET THAT PRODUCES A HIGH % GOOD QUALITY BIRDS THAT DO WHAT THEY ARE SUPOSE TO DO IN THE KIT, I BREED THEM A COUPLE OF YEARS TO MAKE SURE I HAVE SEVERAL OF THEM IN MY KITS. I MAKE THE STUFF THAT I KNOW WORKS FIRST, THEN I SWITCH PAIRS AROUND.
JOHN, THE BIRDS THAT DON'T PRODUCE ON BIRDS THAT HAVE ALREADY BEEN PRODUCING AHVE GOT TO GO, BACK IN THE KIT OR WHERE THEY CAME FROM.
SMOKE747
Last Edited by on Dec 21, 2007 12:13 AM
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John
125 posts
Dec 21, 2007
1:35 AM
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Hey guys,
Thanks, I was trying to get a feel for what some of guys do and what you think about changing mates. I was not speaking of any birds that I own personally.
Ray, I agree there are a lot of good birds out there. I know that breeding a hen to that many cocks would be crazy. They either produce or they don't.If they don't they must go!
Steve,I'm like you I change mates but I always go back to what worked.
Smoke, Your right,if you bred it to a bird that has produced in the past and now the production falls off. The bird must go.
John
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gotspin7
875 posts
Dec 21, 2007
4:48 AM
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I will chime in with Ray on this one!
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Sal Ortiz
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J_Star
1514 posts
Dec 21, 2007
6:30 AM
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Val, you finished my sentence. Thanks…What is the reason somebody wants to put a cock on three hens for!!! What is it we want to accomplish in our breeding program? How many offspring do you get out of a mating in a season to be able to make an educated decision to whether the breeder is worthy or not!!
I speak only for myself and my family of birds and I have a well inbreed family of birds that they all look and perform similar in every aspect…So, for me to breed one cock to three hens would be only to cultivate the best offspring hens out of those mating to put back on their father, regardless of the percentages, because I would be honing on making more of the cock bird and to establish three lines in my family. Remember that the F1s are 50/50 off of the cock and each hen. The second generation of the same process would yield 75/25 and so on to 7/8 / 1/8 which will give me the result I am looking for after so many culling. But breeding a cock on several hens to find out if the cock is potent or not is really not in my pigeon vocabulary due to the fact there are so many pairs to breed from. My philosophy is if you get high percentages from a pair, the pair will stay together as long as they are producing what I am looking to get from them in a season. Also remember that a breeding season is short and switching birds around could lead you to be less productive for a season or two which will set you back tremendously if things did not pan out as you had hoped and most likely than not, thing would not pan out.
Also, a click pair is called a “Goldmine” or “Producer” pair. Those types of breeders are worth more to me because of the sure results rather than guessing procedure and killing precious time hoping to get the big one.
For the most of my breeders, I put the best daughters to their father or the best sons on their mothers every two season. Two seasons will give me enough time to determine the best offspring and worthy of breeding. This way, I believe, my breeding program will move forward much further than test mating. I don’t have the luxury or the space like most others for horsing around in a short breeding season. My way of breeding is not the most glorious or fancy methods but it is the simplest and the most productive in the short breeding season and to cultivate a stud of good performers. With this method, my breeding program moves one notch up every season and you can see the difference from season to season so that I can easily chart my progress.
Jay
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Missouri-Flyer
1127 posts
Dec 21, 2007
6:42 AM
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Jay,
You have any pics of your birds you can post?..I have seen you post loft pics, but dont recall seeing any of your birds.
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Jerry
Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
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J_Star
1515 posts
Dec 21, 2007
6:52 AM
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No I don't because I just got the camera when I took the picture of my loft. I will take pictures and post some hopefully soon.
Jay
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