155
89 posts
Dec 24, 2007
4:52 PM
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When I started the hobby a year ago I started getting birds from all kinds of people at the most it was like two to three people so when I started getting more into the hobby I was left actually I picked out birds from three familys My number one family comes from Manuel Moreno Black Rain stuff that he created in the passed five years my number two family is Jerry Higgins Line I like them birds cause they come in soon and they have good depth and my number three family is George Mason birds breed by Al Luna from Arizona there a nice type of birds with fast frequance and constent preformance I call them butterfly rollers... I like to see big breaks... So what do you guys think is three enough or to much?
Jose
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Skylineloft
668 posts
Dec 24, 2007
5:03 PM
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Jose,
Great question,
In the 90s I did the same thing. I brought in birds that where from different families. Sometimes this is all your able to do to get started in the hobby and build your family of birds around what you have acquired from different breeders. I just want to say, I did not like the end result of crossbreeding other families together and I am not going to do that this time around only because I have a chance not to. I had that same chance in the 90s but I knew no better even though the old timers said that it would be a mistake. I could go on all day long about the problems I ran into from doing that but I think I have posted to much on this subject already.
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Ray
Breeding Quality Spinners,
"One Roller At A Time".
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155
90 posts
Dec 24, 2007
5:05 PM
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I too keep my family seperated also. But I got some birds from a friend in California name Allen Weaver and he crossed Higgins with Mason and he got frequance, speed, depth and an excellent kiting birds out that cross..
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155
91 posts
Dec 24, 2007
5:14 PM
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In starting the hobby I started with i'll list the familys I had gotten..
Bob Scott Line (They lack of frequancy but the roll was there I seen them birds roll in three min. and after the three min there was no roll and they were pure Bob Scott out of Bob Scott's breeders I got those from Manuel Moreno)
Brian Dominguiz (They lacked everything)
Jerry Higgings (Excelent Birds hands down)
George Mason (Excelent birds hands down)
Manuel Morneo (Excelent Birds Hands Down)
Robert Parker (Witch go back to Jerry Higgins line deep birds cause I had the breed with Red/Red and I was getting a 100 footers the most but I changed with red/black and I got some dangers good spinners)
This are some of the family I got from some people and I could go on but yeah I only stuck with three family's
Last Edited by on Dec 24, 2007 5:19 PM
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rollerpigeon1963
215 posts
Dec 24, 2007
5:16 PM
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Jose,
If you can keep the families seperated in the breeding loft and in the kit boxes then it might be worth a shot. I never had much luck with mixing two families together and coming out with instance success. But not saying it cant be done because I know of a few people that have done it and has had some luck with it.
For example my Roe and Billing birds flew about the same but after a while they messed each out up after flying for a while. I never bred them together and flew the babies.Because I wanted more of the gene pool to work with. And I needed to get a grasp on each family before I tried doing something like that.
You need to really know what the family is able to do in the air and how they react to feed and weather conditions. And once you figure out both families that will be just half of the battle. So if your half way there why would you want to start over again and bred the two families together and cause more headaches? Just my thought!
I can see working with two families but three does sound more like a second job when you have to keep three.
Have a safe and Happy Holidays
Brian Middaugh
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155
92 posts
Dec 24, 2007
5:24 PM
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So far in the breeding loft I do keep them seperate and pure.. But in my kit box I had 8 older Mason birds and I used those Mason birds to train my Higgins and Moreno family. And believe it or not what the Mason birds do the other two familys do also and i'm pretty happy with that results but with this year coming i'll be flying each family seperate don't get me wrong junk does come out of this familys but junk goes with junk every thursdays so I try to keep only good quality birds
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Skylineloft
670 posts
Dec 24, 2007
5:24 PM
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Jose,
Most out-crosses will come out smoking the first and second generation. The key is will that continue farther down the road as a new family of birds. Its kind of like starting over once you mix these birds together just to see if they will work well together as a family. When I tried this in the 90s, I ended up with birds that needed to be on a different feed schedule as well as birds that flew faster then the other birds. Now what I had was birds spending all there time trying to catch up with the other birds in the kit instead of using all there energy rolling because they flew at different speeds.
I hope this helps.
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Ray
Breeding Quality Spinners,
"One Roller At A Time".
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155
93 posts
Dec 24, 2007
5:29 PM
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With them family's that I have as soon as they are removed from there parents I feed mine only Milo only and when its time for me to play with the feed I feed them wheat, milo and barley mix. And so far its been a year like this and to me all the birds fly the same they roll as a group (not all the time but most) but im pretty happy with what I got. It might work for some people and it might not work for other but for me right now I have no complants.
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Skylineloft
672 posts
Dec 24, 2007
5:36 PM
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Jose,
IM real glad to hear that its working out for you. You would not be the first one out there to be able to do this. I hope the best for you buddy!!!!!
Maybe you could post a couple photos for us to enjoy and I do wish you the best with them.
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Ray
Breeding Quality Spinners,
"One Roller At A Time".
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155
94 posts
Dec 24, 2007
5:46 PM
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Thanks Skyline whenever your aroung the Arizona area your always welcome to stop by my backyard loft I hope the same for you.
Jose
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PR_rollers
302 posts
Dec 24, 2007
5:57 PM
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Thats good post Ray ,,
Same thing happen to me back in the late 90's..I got birds from every loft sent to me..Higgins ,Pensom,
Jacs,Bob Evans,and I wasted 7 years of my life,instead of going forward I went backwards..I learn that different strains of rollers have entirely different body types,length of flight feathers,wing action and some fly high some fly low.and different climate too .responded to feed differently.but I don't regret it anymore because I learn from it .and birds should be all of the same strain,hatch at the same time,fed at the same time and house together,so you get a uniform kit of birds.which will be easy to train..155 you doing it right if you keeping them separate.
and if you have the time .see a good thing i was retire at the time i was going through this .but still wasted alot of years. Good Luck.Merry X-mas and Happy New Year..
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Ralph....
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JMUrbon
319 posts
Dec 24, 2007
6:15 PM
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I have never been an advocte of mixing birds from different lofts. Probably for the main reason being that somebody has already spent the time selectively breeding the crap out of their birds and you have no Idea what you would be adding back to them by mixing another family to them.
I know that you stated you were keeping these different families seperated and that is the best thing to do but very time consuming and I think ultimately makes it very difficult to concentrate on any single line which would add years to the ( perfection ) of your birds " If I can call it that ". Joe Urbon
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
Last Edited by on Dec 24, 2007 6:17 PM
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PR_rollers
303 posts
Dec 24, 2007
6:18 PM
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155, one thing that is very important with youngster is feed them a high protein diet so they developed their muscles right
which they will need for rolling later on in life.and to stay healthy.rollers will do good on any type of feed,but .as least twice a week give it to them with plenty of rest..what i do sometime is do more push up then usual and i wake up sore the next day just to remind me my birds must be sore too.. let them rest ,thats when i feed them more and let them bathe and relax their muscles----------wheat is good to get them to stay up high and longer, but its only high in carbohydrates and lean muscle mass is at risk ,when they fly too high i give Milo what I really do is 50/50 and adjust from what i see them doing in the air.Good luck...
Ralph....
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Skylineloft
673 posts
Dec 24, 2007
6:19 PM
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Was it Pensom that said you can screw up a family of birds in just two or three generations that took a lifetime for someone to establish ?
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Ray
Breeding Quality Spinners,
"One Roller At A Time".
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PR_rollers
304 posts
Dec 24, 2007
6:25 PM
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Amen to that Joe u.. Joe I have been trying to get in touch with Dave H, I want to see if i can'get my hands on one of those black hats.high five ?he hasn't answer my email.. last time he said he was moving..
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Ralph....
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JMUrbon
320 posts
Dec 24, 2007
6:31 PM
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Ralph I believe they are currently sold out. I will give Dave a call and find out for you. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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Electric-man
977 posts
Dec 24, 2007
6:38 PM
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I still wear mine proudly!
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Val
"Site Moderator"
Last Edited by on Dec 24, 2007 6:42 PM
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PR_rollers
305 posts
Dec 24, 2007
6:40 PM
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Val ,,now why you gonna go tease me like that..:)
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Ralph....
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Electric-man
978 posts
Dec 24, 2007
6:44 PM
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LOL !
Wished mine still looked that good!
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Val
"Site Moderator"
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JMUrbon
321 posts
Dec 25, 2007
1:48 AM
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Me too.LOL. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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CSRA
968 posts
Dec 25, 2007
7:58 AM
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I would suggest is one family if you need to cross i would suggest get a bird from someone who has the same family you have but bred different make sure they are not crossing there family
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3757
407 posts
Dec 25, 2007
8:44 AM
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155 - I have two families within the same line. This works out well as when I want to cross within the line they are both bred for the same thing velocity/style and I do not have to go out to someone else for a cross. You can have multiple lines with the same family. This works better for my needs.
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155
95 posts
Dec 25, 2007
8:46 AM
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My question to all you people that are in the roller hobby is din't Higgins use so many crosses to make his own family? Or din't jaganet use a couple of family also to make his own family a lot of good rollers crossed there birds to get there family to get there familys you'll be surprise at how many crosses I havent been in the hobby for a long time but I know a lot of guys that crossed there birds with more than three familys to get what they want and of course there not going to give credit to those other familys there just call it what they want to call it there so busy trying to be the Gods of the roller hobby that you wont know what your bird really are...
Jose
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3757
408 posts
Dec 25, 2007
9:04 AM
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Jose - You are on to something. Little credit is giving to anyone these days. People use birds from people, have success and will not give credit at all. In the old days this was not the case. One of the main reasons is the $ and pride. Pride and the competitive spirit can be destructive because there are a lot of negative things that can go along with it. We see it in some of the post.
Last Edited by on Dec 25, 2007 9:05 AM
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Missouri-Flyer
1155 posts
Dec 25, 2007
9:11 AM
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after how many generations do you call them yours?.. I give credit where d\credit is due, but after a year or so, and switching up pairs, I see it as they are mine, due to the fact that the previous breeder would probably have not bred the same as I had.
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Jerry
Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
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RUDY..ZUPPPPP
816 posts
Dec 25, 2007
9:13 AM
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Well jeery what i hear once the youngs hatch they are consider yours..????????
Your family ,Besides your the big pappa.............lol
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RUDY PAYEN
PANCHO VILLA LOFT
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Missouri-Flyer
1158 posts
Dec 25, 2007
9:18 AM
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LMAO,
Yea, but I will give the credit where it is due, until I have changed things up somewhat.. I will always keep my Bill birds together, but inbreed them and see what happens.. In doing that, I will always credit Bill with the quality he has bred, but will credit myself with the inbreeding, and the quality that comes from my pairings.
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Jerry
Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
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155
97 posts
Dec 25, 2007
9:21 AM
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I think once you buy the bird from whome ever its your bird but a lot of people do this if they get good birds out of that pair of that they bought they will say something sometime but most the time they wont but then if you get bad birds out of those pair then thats when they open there mouth and say something now you see what im trying to say.
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3757
409 posts
Dec 25, 2007
9:21 AM
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Jerry - I do not think that a person really understands a family totally in one year. You are correct that they become yours after three generations that is why Bill Pensom said that they could be ruined in this time. But overall credit is not giving at all. Look at the famous strain that came out of San Diego. It was not until Richard E. wrote an article to clear up the true origins of that family. It boils down to pride and look at what I have done. Just my opinion and I respect yours.
Last Edited by on Dec 25, 2007 9:35 AM
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Missouri-Flyer
1159 posts
Dec 25, 2007
9:26 AM
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3757,
My statement was not intended to take the credit for the parents of the young that I bred, but credit only for those young that I have bred. No, you cant judge a family in a single year, but you can judge the quality of a family in a year, and after seeing the quality, you can make a good determination as of who you would breed to who, therefore, making your own breeding decisions, therefore making them your family... hope that made some type of sense..Heck, kinda lost myself..LOL
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Jerry
Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
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3757
410 posts
Dec 25, 2007
9:37 AM
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Jerry - That makes total sense and at least you will give credit to the originals as many do not.
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hectorvicki2003@yaho
146 posts
Dec 25, 2007
10:17 AM
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JOSE
If you are ever in So,Cal,give me a call.
I have The Bob Scott line and i do get the frequency,
It is harder to get,but you can get it,its all in the feed.
Ive been lying my birds and have seen the frequency when i put the time in it.
I like to give credit where credit is due,
Some people act like they have reinvented the wheel.
I think if you Know what your doing and get ,lets say 4 top birds from a top breeder,you can have them 5 years and its not like you made a new strain,nothing has changed ,they are still good birds like the once the guy you got the originals from.Among other familys i still have some pure Bob Scott,not srossed out with any other stuff,why whould i call them my stuff i havent changed anything in them.My opinion.
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Hector Coya
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RUDY..ZUPPPPP
818 posts
Dec 25, 2007
10:40 AM
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Good post COYA................
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RUDY PAYEN
PANCHO VILLA LOFT
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2024 posts
Dec 25, 2007
10:41 AM
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Hey Hector, I disagree to a point, here is what I mean, you have a different eye so to speak than say did Bob Scott, you see and observe differently, you have personal preferences in tendencies in selection that you may not be aware of.
These tendencies, over several generations, could lead to subtle or severe differences in the look, temperament, performance qualities, etc of the colony of "Bob Scott" birds, so much so that Bob, might have looked at what you have and not recognize the colony as being the SAME as his own.
While I always think it is interesting to know the background of a line of birds, I feel it is no guarantee that the fancier can get the same results.
I used to not tell anyone the distant background of my family of birds (for a while no one cared! LOL)...I did the flying, spent countless hours under kits, selecting and pairing breeders up.
I wanted credit for my family of Ruby Rollers, I did the work, no one else...but, I kept on getting asked repeatedly by a certain type of buyer wanting my family what was the background, finally, I just included the information with my sales material just to avoid having to answer the question and discussion that went with it.
Saying all that...I still think it is cool that my 903 foundation cock was only like 7 or 8 generations removed from the 514 hen. lol
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
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155
98 posts
Dec 25, 2007
10:42 AM
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I got my Bob Scott from Manuel Moreno in California I think I meet you at the Bob Scott show. Don't get me wrong I like the type on them birds and everything I got like ten of those flying right now but they havent came into there roll yet there four months or a little older they fly good and kit good but yeah if i ever go out there i'll give you a call.
Jose
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city-side-lofts
114 posts
Dec 25, 2007
6:24 PM
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well men you need 2 families your pigeon family and your realy family i have you guys for my pigeon family and my actual family for my reg family
_______________________________
The man in black
city-side-lofts.piczo.com
Ben the bird man of Idaho
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gotspin7
963 posts
Dec 26, 2007
6:03 AM
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I will have to go with one family!
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Sal Ortiz
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RUDY..ZUPPPPP
GOLD MEMBER
2468 posts
Feb 01, 2009
5:58 AM
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?
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RUDY PAYEN
PANCHO VILLA LOFT
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gotspin7
2223 posts
Feb 01, 2009
6:00 AM
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One family period!....lol.... What up Rudy??
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Sal Ortiz
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AK-Roller Loft
89 posts
Feb 01, 2009
6:38 AM
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WOW, Watch Listen And Learn, Awesome !!
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Ak
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