ezeedad
216 posts
Dec 29, 2007
1:11 PM
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This is something I wrote a few years ago.. food for thought.
LET'S BE ACCURATE IN JUDGING OUR FLYERS
Some sort of improvement is in need for what has been a highly inaccurate
system of judging kit competitions.
What if one was to count his money in the haphazard way that we count our
points in the traditional roller contests? For example, when 19 birds roll in
unison, the birds are scored a 3/4 turn, which may be worth either 15 or 10 points,
depending on the sytsem used. This would be like going to a money changer and
receiving either 75 cents or even just 50 cents for 19/20 (95%) of a dollar!
Likewise, the half turn and the quarter turn are denied fair appraisal by
the "traditional" rules. Another example could be the quarter turn, when 9 birds
rolling at the same time are given either 5 or only 1 point for this amount of roll.
This would be like receiving either 25 cents or only 5 cents for 9/20 (45%) of a
dollar! Who in their right mind would subject their finances to such abuse? Yet
the roller hobby has willingly, and for the most part unquestioningly, gone along
with this system. (end of original writing)
I think that the most ACCURATE evaluation of performance would be to call the exact
number of birds that rolled, and give them a point apiece.
So if 12 birds roll, give 12 points, etc..
And yes, if only one bird rolls give 1 point.
BUT.. Only birds that SPIN should be counted.. I could go on... In the LARC we hashed out a set of rules based on the 30 point systen that was started in the BCRC. I can post those rules if anyone is interested..
We also developed our own system of certifying rollers..
Gomez
Last Edited by on Dec 29, 2007 1:13 PM
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SiDLoVE
102 posts
Dec 29, 2007
1:40 PM
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What if 12 roll but 4 dont roll properly? like they just twizzle or roll sloppy or if the bird rolls and doesnt finish heading back to the kit? I think we need to be more focused on the w/c rules and nbrc rules so when the times comes for you to fly ..no new surprises .. my opinion.
siDLOve
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ezeedad
217 posts
Dec 29, 2007
4:35 PM
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Sid,
In that case the judge only gives 8 points for the ones that are rolling right... Judges call..
What would these birds score using NBRC or World cup rules?
Paul
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W@yne
867 posts
Dec 29, 2007
4:54 PM
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Sid if twelve birds roll and 4 roll sloppy its simple only 8 get counted if a bird does not start the roll and exit the roll and ball up correctly it don't get scored end of chat.
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Regards
W@yne UK
Patience Perseverance Perfection
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smoke747
341 posts
Dec 29, 2007
9:18 PM
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I HAVE JUDGED SEVERAL KITS. FIRST OF, IT IS HARD TO COUNT 12 BIRDS,DETERMINE THE DEPTH, THE QUALITY OF EACH BIRD, WATCH FOR THE TWIZZLERS AND THE ONES THAT EXIT INCORRECTLY. NO HUMAN EYE IS THAT GOOD.
WHAT I TRY TO DO IS TAKE A MENTAL PICTURE OF THE BIG BREAKS COUNTING THE ONES THAT DIDN'T GO, WATCHING FOR THE STYLE AND DEPTH ON THE TIGHTEST MASS OF THE KIT. I WATCH THE BREAK ALL THE WAY THROUGH TRYING TO SEE WHICH BIRDS CUT IT SHORT OR DON'T ROLL PROPERLY. IF 20 BIRDS ARE FLOWN AND 11 BIRDS GO CORRECTLY BUT IT COULD HAVE BEEN 12 OR MAYBE 10 I WOULD GIVE 10. I'M NOT SURE ABOUT THE 12 BUT I KNOW 10 WENT. THE 10 WIL STILL BE 20PTS AND SO ON. JUST THE WAY I JUDGE MY OWN KITS AND OTHERS.
SMOKE747
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Skylineloft
726 posts
Dec 29, 2007
9:22 PM
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Smoke,
Great decryption on how to call birds!!!!!!!
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Ray
Breeding Quality Spinners,
"One Roller At A Time".
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smoke747
343 posts
Dec 29, 2007
9:50 PM
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PAUL,
WHEN THE BIRDS BREAK, WE GIVE FACE VALUE FOR ALL BREAKS 5 AND GREATER, WITH THE 10- 14 BIRD BREAK BEING DOUBLED, THE 15-19 TRIPPLED,FULL TURN (20) MULTIPLIED BY 5 .THEN WE ADD THE MULTIPLIERS.QXD
SMOKE747
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ezeedad
218 posts
Dec 29, 2007
10:28 PM
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Keith,
Thanks for the explanation... I think the way you call the birds is fair.. you are being sure that the birds are earning their points.
My point about the existing system is that the value of large breaks is so much that to win, the birds must roll together. This overshadows the goal of producing birds that fit the definition of our breed.
If the definition went, "The Birmingham Roller Rolls in unison with all other members of the kit like a spinning ball"... or something like that, I would be in agreement with the present system. But I just believe that rolling in unison, and rolling to the standard of the breed are two different things.. and that the two different things are in conflict with each other.
For example, if 9 birds roll blazing fast... they get 9 points... but if 20 birds roll together..nothing special in their speed, they will get 100 points.. Even when the multipliers are applied, it doesn't reward the better spinners unless they also are making a full turn..
I just think that far too many points are being given to full turns...
Paul
Last Edited by on Dec 29, 2007 10:51 PM
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smoke747
344 posts
Dec 29, 2007
10:33 PM
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THANKS PAUL AND SKYLINE. I TRY TO BE FAIR TO THE SPORT AND ALL THAT FLY.
SMOKE747
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SiDLoVE
104 posts
Dec 29, 2007
10:40 PM
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Thats correct Paul . Smoke explains how it would be judged . The Judge has the last call and his best to count the ones rolling properly and over 10 feet and clean break out and heading to the kit. If a birds rolls clean and over 10 feet then tail rides that bird is not counted. take care. ....siDLOve
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W@yne
869 posts
Dec 29, 2007
11:30 PM
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If a 12 bird break happened on a fly depending on the angle of the break IE overhead breaks are always harder to determine of depth and break.
If 4 birds out of that break didn't break in good style or sloppy you can bet your bottom dollar i could tell you that.
The good birds are easy to count the bad birds stick out like a sore thumbs. Some people have a better eye for watching birds than others do that's why not everyone even if taught will not always make good judges.
What i don't like to see is a judge that judges a kit of activity a bungle of crap in other words birds that resemble a good kit of tumblers.
Because believe me it does happen Ive witnessed it.
Sometimes i think some judges couldn't even tell a good roller if it was smack bang in front of them.
JMHO
Regards
W@yne UK
Patience Perseverance Perfection
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Last Edited by on Dec 30, 2007 2:14 AM
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CHANTICLEER
30 posts
Dec 30, 2007
5:19 AM
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TOTAL AGREE WAYNE ,
As a total novice to the competition rollers its a very steep learning curve ,
However i have noticed that the middlesborough area flyers are .. VERY , VERY CRITICAL of rollers performances .......... they HAVE to be very good quality rolls or they arent scored , ive been to a few flys now and belive me when someone like Deano judges ... the quality must be there or the score sheets looking very bare !
maybe why the boro flyers are leading the way ?
all the best
LEE N / EAST ENGLAND
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IN THE LAND OF THE BLIND
THE ONE EYED MAN IS KING !!
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DeepSpinLofts
216 posts
Dec 30, 2007
6:02 AM
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re: "Accurate Judging System"
To put it to you bluntly there is no such a thing.
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
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Velo99
1484 posts
Dec 30, 2007
6:42 AM
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EZ
The focus of kit competetion is for the birds to break in unison. Therefore,when more birds break higher points are awarded. There could be several different ways to change the bonus system,but if it aint broke don`t fix it. Seems five is the optimal number in the rules.
Sid
You stated one of the most commonly misconstrued check offs in judging. It doesn`t state anywhere in the 20 bird rules about a bird coming out in the same direction as the kit or the direction it was facing. It is not a flaw and should be counted according to the rules. Now if a bird is fighting the roll at the end and looks like crap... but directional facing is how the bird re orients himself as he comes out. I think the 11 bird NBRC rules says the bird should be facing the same direction. I`ll check and post back.
OK here is the judging standards from the NBRC site:
Judging Standards
The bird must turn over backwards, spinning quickly like a ball.
The bird must fall vertically with the appearance of a straight line from start to finish.
The bird should finish cleanly and not tail ride or plate roll at the end.
Loose, Slow, Sloppy, and/or plate rollers should not be scored.
Birds that roll less than 10 ft. should not be scored.
The bird must roll from the kit and must return to the kit before it can be scored again. If the bird rolls prior to rejoining the kit it does not score and is considered an out bird until it rejoins the kit.
Just for fun this is the second most misconstrued rule(s):
Although it cannot score while apart from the kit, a pigeon shall not be considered out if it is returning directly from a roll, has been separated by extreme weather, or has been chased off by a bird of prey, even if the pigeon lands or is captured.
A group of 5 birds is the minimum number that can score if the remainder of the kit are returning directly from a roll, have been separated by extreme weather, or have been chased off by a bird of prey.
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V99
Keep the best. Eat the rest.
Last Edited by on Dec 30, 2007 6:51 AM
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Double R
208 posts
Dec 30, 2007
7:38 AM
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Smoke,
Since I am new to rollers and have not competed (Yet). I was wondering how the scoring works. I think I understand how the points work with the multipliers work but what about the (Depth) and (Quality)? Correct me if I am wrong.
Example:
First break 8 birds = 8 points
Second break 12 birds = 24 points
Third break 17 birds = 51 points
Forth break 20 birds = 100 points
Total Points = 183
With a 1.5 for Depth
and
With a 1.5 for Quality
What would the final score be?
Robby
Last Edited by on Dec 30, 2007 7:42 AM
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Velo99
1486 posts
Dec 30, 2007
7:47 AM
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Multiply 183 by 1.5 for Q and 1.5 for D and add em
Thats your score. 549
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V99
Keep the best. Eat the rest.
Last Edited by on Dec 30, 2007 7:48 AM
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Double R
210 posts
Dec 30, 2007
7:49 AM
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Thanks Kenny,
I just thought it's something I need to know and be sure of. Would the points have been correct for those breaks?
Robby
Last Edited by on Dec 30, 2007 7:52 AM
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W@yne
871 posts
Dec 30, 2007
7:52 AM
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Lee you are correct the Middlesbrough guys know a good pigeon thats why the standard there is so high and you are right they are leading the way.
Have a great new year Lee
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Regards
W@yne UK
Patience Perseverance Perfection
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CSRA
1029 posts
Dec 30, 2007
8:10 AM
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I agree with Keith good work baby class has begun
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ezeedad
219 posts
Dec 30, 2007
9:19 AM
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Wayne,
I've seen the same thing happening in competition..where slow rollers and poor style was counted..and got big points simply because they all went at the same time. This caused choices that favored the frequent tumbler over the infrequent ripper...
LEE R, Thanks for letting us in on whats going on over there in England..
Marcus,
BLUNT is true... But sometimes that is the right way... I agree with you, that's why I've been against this system for years..
Velo99,
Yes the focus is FIXATED on rolling in unison..and that's what I don't like about the system. I even think that if only 1 or 2 birds roll right that you should get 1 or 2 points.
I appreciate what you added about the details of judging..thanks..
Gomez
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CHANTICLEER
31 posts
Dec 30, 2007
4:31 PM
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WAYNE ,
A GREAT NEY YEAR TO YOU AND YOURS AS WELL MATE
Fellas ive been visiting men like john wanless etc over in middlesborough ......... the QUALITY of their birds is outstanding .... theres men travelling from all over the world to try and get boro birds , i belive from what ive seen ..... that hard , correct judgeing has improved their birds well above the other areas ive seen ,........
At the moment ive been bashing on with my loft ..... one hell of a lot of graft but it is worth it ! ......... a good friend has offered to breed me his first round of youngsters , which are wanless birds and some of loftys , also old maurice hole has offered me a few pair of stock birds , ....... All in All iam being spoilt by the huge generosity of the boro / north east lads
all the best
LEE
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IN THE LAND OF THE BLIND
THE ONE EYED MAN IS KING !!
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smoke747
352 posts
Dec 30, 2007
9:14 PM
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you are right paul. s low rollers should not be scored on breaks. If they are scored, it is because the person calling the breaks is inexperienced or by accident.like i said in earlier post it is almost impossible to see every birds style, depth and at the same time count the birds rolling or not rolling. just because 16 birds go on a break dosen't mean some are rolling incorrectly.
Some guys do fly birds that do not perform correctly(very poor) and expect his breaks to be counted.
WHEN I PUT UP A KIT, I TRY TO LEAVE NO ROOM FOR DOUBT REGARDING QUALITY OR DEPTH. IT TAKES A WHILE TO ACHEIVE THIS. AT LEAST 2 YRS
TUMBLERS DON'T COUNT!!
SMOKE747
Last Edited by on Dec 30, 2007 9:15 PM
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wishiwon2
21 posts
Dec 30, 2007
9:57 PM
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Kenny
need to check your math. you should multiply the Q x D then multiply this (bonus factor) with the raw score.
In our example; 1.5 x 1.5 = 2.25 for bonus factor
2.25 x 183 = 411.75 for total score.
The scoring system we have now for WC and FF are a very good scoring system. It rewards teams proportionatly for quality and depth It also rewards teams for breaking together. Although that is not included in what is refered to as our "standard" it has always been significant in kit flying competition. Lets face it a kit which breaks well together is more impressive than an assemblage of rollers regaurdless of what they may be which rolls individually on its own schedule. The 1-2-3 sytem rewards team work, this is a kit competition. Some of us here would like to see individual competition. Thats excellent and a great thing but we shouldnt try to alter the rules for a kit competition to become an individual competition.
The weakness in the 1-2-3 system is variability in judging. It is a subjective analysis of a team of rollers based upon written criteria. It allows for a judge to base his valuation upon his experiences and what he deems as adequate vs excellent. The only way for that to change is for a person to see more rollers of different qualities perform. If all a judge has ever seen is trash, then likely you will reward trash as acceptable. On the other hand, if a judge lives amongst excellent fliers and regularly views excelent kits of rollers then they will likely have less tolerance for mediocrity. It also has some bearing on a jjudges physical ability to see and evaluate. Were not all equal.
I have never seen where a grossly unqualified team has been placed over an excellent team. I have seen where I would have scored a little different but most of the outcome would have been placed the same.
Just my opinion, if it aint broke, dont fix it. If you want to become a good judge get out and see as many kits as possible all over the place. Birds outside of your yard or neighborhood or even your state vary quite a bit.
Last Edited by on Dec 30, 2007 10:15 PM
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W@yne
876 posts
Dec 31, 2007
12:14 AM
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Lee
Yes you are surely being spoiled from the guys from Middlesbrough and you wont go far wrong with those birds. Are any of you guys up there going to the AERC show in padgate in 4 weeks time?
Anyway good luck Lee with your birds i wish you all the best with them.
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Regards
W@yne UK
Patience Perseverance Perfection
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3757
441 posts
Dec 31, 2007
5:40 AM
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Keith - What I like about you is your honesty. Many people will not say what you are saying. I also agree with Paul. It is discussions like this that help us improve the sport no matter what your focus is on (The 30 point system or World Cup rules).
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Velo99
1493 posts
Dec 31, 2007
7:28 AM
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Damn, I thought I knew everything.
lol
thanks bro.
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V99
Keep the best. Eat the rest.
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ptlofts
9 posts
Dec 31, 2007
1:50 PM
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Ive seen breaks of 12 birds in a 20 birds kit and its something to remember. :)
Pedro
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smoke747
362 posts
Dec 31, 2007
5:59 PM
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Laron, honesty is the only way our sport can get better no matter what scoring system we use.
smoke747
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Velo99
1498 posts
Jan 01, 2008
9:37 AM
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An exerpt from the WC rules:
The judge shall SIMPLY ESTIMATE and record the number of birds rolling adequately in unison for each break involving 5 or more. “In unison” means that the last bird involved must begin performing within ½ second of the first, and that all continue performing together for a least ½ second. The suggested minimum depth for scoring is 10 feet.
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V99
Keep the best. Eat the rest.
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RUDY..ZUPPPPP
858 posts
Jan 01, 2008
9:51 AM
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Zupppppppppp v99
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RUDY PAYEN
PANCHO VILLA LOFT
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CHANTICLEER
32 posts
Jan 01, 2008
12:26 PM
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HI WAYNE ,
Not too sure whos going to the show ...... i would have been down but iam already sorted to go to a poultry show in cumbria , is the show worth visiting ? .
i am planning to go to the middlesborough show and auction
All the best to everyone for the NEW YEAR
LEE
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IN THE LAND OF THE BLIND
THE ONE EYED MAN IS KING !!
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W@yne
895 posts
Jan 02, 2008
3:00 AM
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Yes Lee
The show is usually a good turn out with a bird auction and show.
Usually the guys from Boro usually take a mini bus down to the show everyone having the crack and laugh.
Anyway Lee if you don't come this time try to put it in your diary for next year.
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Regards
W@yne UK
Patience Perseverance Perfection
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