parlorfancier916
456 posts
Jan 07, 2008
4:59 PM
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which style produces the hole from the side??
X, A, Shuriken A, (-), H?
I know that A does not produce the whole so which style you guys?
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Nrhoua (Doua) Xiong
4581 25th ave. sacramento C.A. 95820
http://freewebs.com/parlorrollers
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Donny James
242 posts
Jan 07, 2008
6:31 PM
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i think the A or the H will ...........donny james
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Mount Airy Lofts
360 posts
Jan 07, 2008
7:10 PM
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All... I have even seen the hole from a plain flat out axle roller.
Thor
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gotspin7
1145 posts
Jan 08, 2008
5:03 AM
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Parlor, for a bird to show you the hole on the side the bird or birds needs to be balanced.
Sal Ortiz
Last Edited by on Jan 08, 2008 5:05 AM
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gotspin7
1150 posts
Jan 08, 2008
5:15 AM
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3757, were you at? You are better at explaining this kind of stuff!
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Sal Ortiz
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3757
450 posts
Jan 08, 2008
6:34 AM
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Sal – Thanks for the compliment. Here is my take on the hole. If a person is interested in breeding birds that show the hole I believe that you should concentrate on breeding birds that have extreme high velocity and style and on birds that have correct body type (balanced as Sal suggested). All of these things, in my experience, go hand in hand with producing a bird that shows the hole. Most have actually gone away from breeding birds that show the hole for one reason or another and I do not believe that most of the roller fanciers today are really concerned with birds that show the hole as the focus has changed. This does not mean that the focus today is bad but this is the reality of today. It is a fascinating site to see a bird that can spin with extreme velocity and show the hole. Is it commonplace? No, these are rare performers and a person has to be in a correct position to see it. Also, birds that rolls with the x pattern do not reveal the small hole as X pattern birds do not roll correctly. Birds that show the hole perform with inconceivable velocity and perfect style and no wings are visible to the necked eye.
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pat66
92 posts
Jan 08, 2008
7:05 AM
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LaRon,
Great post!!! Glad to see you back,always enjoy reading your responses.
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Pat
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3757
451 posts
Jan 08, 2008
7:49 AM
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Thanks Pat!
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Mount Airy Lofts
361 posts
Jan 08, 2008
10:16 AM
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I maybe be off base here and correct me if I am wrong but from my limited experience of visiting different lofts, any styled roller can roll with the hole on the side. There was this guy that knew nothing about competition and all most every bird in his kit were high 'X' wingers but I'll tell you what, all most every one of them showed some sort of hole from the side. I bred a very fast rolling axle roller once that showed the hole every time it rolled. I have seen the hole from high 'H' wingers as well. The only time I have seen a bird blurr out, there were no hole. This has lead me to believe the blurr is incapable of showing the hole due to ultimate velocity. The bird was just a fuzz, no hole, no wings, no nothing, just a plain out fuzz.
I think all one needs is velocity to obtain the hole. It helps if the bird is longish in over all length.
Just my experience,
Thor
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COYOTE33
31 posts
Jan 08, 2008
11:06 AM
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i really appreciate your comment Thor, but i would have to agree with the doc and sal. to show the hole the bird would have to have all the ingredience, especially type and style and it would have to fall into the H factor. a donut does not have wings, the bird would have to shrink itself to this style in order to show the hole. it takes the right ingredience to do this. true there are different position to view this spectacular event, but any thing less than this i cant say is perfect style.
coyote
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Mount Airy Lofts
363 posts
Jan 08, 2008
2:27 PM
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coyote,
Again, just my experience. Believe me, that I was even surprise myself when I had that axle roller that could show the hole like clock work. My first take was, how can a axle roller which rolls with it's wings straight out show the hole from the side. I couldn't tell you. Maybe some one majoring in physics can answer? All I know is what I have seen. For those who don't know, an axle roller will appear like this from the front view --O-- .
Are you guys telling me that a bird needs to roll in perfect style and perfect velocity to show the hole from the side? Wow, I guess 99.99 percent every thing out there is out the door. I'll be lucky to breed one bird or two birds worth noting and even these aren't perfect rollers.
Velocity has a lot to do with tricking the human eye.
One question, do you really believe that a roller must roll with perfect form and ultimate velocity to show the hole from the side or is it more of what you believe in?
Thor
Last Edited by on Jan 08, 2008 2:31 PM
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3757
452 posts
Jan 08, 2008
5:49 PM
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It has nothing to do with belief at all but on what I have seen not only at my yard but at others as well. In all of my years off breeding rollers I have never seen an x pattern bird do anything but roll like junk to me. It could be fast but to me it looks horrible. High velocity speed and style is the only way to see the hole. It may be a big 0 but it is not the hole :) Thor it is great having discussions like this! Thanks!
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ezeedad
245 posts
Jan 08, 2008
6:17 PM
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Thor,
I have to admit that was suprised to see you say that the axle style roller showed a hole, but I have to agree with you that the roller doesn't necessarily have to roll especially fast to show the hole.
I also agree with you about the fastest ones not showing a hole. The birds that "shrink" as they accelerate also show a smaller hole that gets smaller, then dissapears as the bird balls up and speeds up. That's my experience with these birds. I think you are a very good observer of your birds.
But probably most will agree that the best style is the bird with wings up.. But a lot of breeders disregard the hole or even deny it's existence...... ??
Gomez
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Mount Airy Lofts
365 posts
Jan 08, 2008
6:57 PM
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Kind of gets boring after a while agreeing with every thing and every one doesn't it. I like difference of opinions myself. Keeps the hobby interesting.
Maybe I need to breed more 'H' style or better rollers. I'm a fan of the long Old School type roller. The ones that you see all the time in those old roller books. Hoping this type of bird will give me a higher percentage of 'H' or better styled birds. Well, can't blame a fellow for dreaming as to date I'm still trying...
Thor
P.S. What kind of hole are you talking about. Are you talking about the dime size hole or just a hole? There is a huge difference in my opinion. When I hear the term hole, it means just a hole visible from the side. I don't see many true holes, nor do I see many buzz saw or better type rollers on a daily basis.
P.S.S. Here is my take. From the front, the wings unless blurred out completely can be seen. It is the velocity that gives us a locked wing position (fooling the human eye) or visible wing strokes. All 'H' or '(O)' is the objective of the breed. 'A' to me is merely a high 'X'. Any who, if viewed from the side you are not able to see the hole / make it back view as well. Yet from the side, if the roller has the correct form, any bird can show the hole. Well, at least I have seen it. Why, because from the side view all birds look the same. With enough velocity, all will have the appearance of a ball of feathers. It is style that is capable of giving them the ability to shrink or not shrink. I am not able to see any wings from the side view from these high velocity rollers. This maybe (a big maybe) is why the hole can be produce no matter what style. I seen it in more of the long casted birds then those modern day cobby bodied birds. Correct me if I am off base here on the viewing from the side part. Now style, it has more to do with being smooth in the roll or violent. Maybe a good conversation starter at my local club meeting this 19th. I believe if you want hole rollers, you need to start going backwards and breed for those longer casted bodied birds.
I heard once that a guy bred a bird that disappeared for .5 secs and reappeared in the same spot it rolled. Maybe that bird unlocked the gate way to time travel. Roller men can dish out the best of the BS :) Please don't believe every thing you read or have been told. Experience is the only way to go.
Last Edited by on Jan 08, 2008 7:17 PM
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3757
454 posts
Jan 08, 2008
7:15 PM
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Thor - I think that guy that told that story was smoking something illegal! Also, I remember a guy by the name of Johnny Isabel. I watched his kits a lot when I went on the CRS fly's in the 70's. We would watch his kit and he would start mumbling "zoom, zoom" did you see that? The birds would only fly and fly. He saw it but we did not! Also, I think you are on to something with the birds being a little long-casted!
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smoke747
472 posts
Jan 08, 2008
10:40 PM
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both ()and the H WILL SHOW THE HOLE
SMOKE747
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Shadow
9 posts
Jan 09, 2008
12:35 AM
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In agreement with Thor on this one,to view a perfect hole in the roll,the bird has to be on the large size,long cast type,and rolling at almost the same speed throughout the roll,best observed from a side on viewing position,but the blur roller to my line of thinking is the ultimate speed roller, appearing as almost a type of cannon ball,ball bearing,type image,no hole simply spinning so fast it appears to be solid matter,they are rare,but once seen never forgotten
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gotspin7
1152 posts
Jan 09, 2008
4:15 AM
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3757 thanks for sharing your views on this one!
I agree with Thor on the longer cast! Good post Thor!
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Sal Ortiz
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GREED FOR SPEED LOFT
365 posts
Jan 09, 2008
8:01 AM
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One more style guys that wasnt mentioned i think and that was the bird who shows no wing that tucks it in while in motion. To me this is the bird logicaly that would show the whole for sure.. I have also seen many sizes of whole's from golfball to softball size,from the ground that was what they seemed to appear.(really needs to be more studied).
R-LUNA
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