ezeedad
242 posts
Jan 08, 2008
3:58 PM
|
Sal,
These are the rules we worked out in the LARC for certifying rollers.
Los Angeles Roller Club
Certification of Rollers
The purpose of this certification is to verify that a roller has proven itself to be a superior spinner.
Judging: The bird will be evaluated by three judges familiar with the thirty point system of judging
individual Birmingham Rollers.
Qualifications:
1. The pigeon to be judged must qualify as a spinner on three seperate occasions by scoring a
minimum of twenty three points when the thirty point system of judging is applied.
2. To be judged the first time the pigeon must be at least
six months of age.
3. The bird must be at least one year of age to be judged
a second time.
4. The bird must be at least fifteen months of age to be judged
a third time.
5. After qualifying at either the first or second stage the bird cannot be judged again for a minimum
of two months.
6. If a bird does not qualify at any stage of this evaluation a minimim of two weeks must elapse
before the bird is judged again.
7. If a bird does not qualify at any stage on three consecutive occasions it cannot be certified.
8. A bird will be disqualified from certification if it rolls down during the certification process.
9. A bird will not be scored if it bumps at time of liberation
or while landing.
10. If a bird bumps more than once in the certification process
it will be disqualified.
11. The bird will be evaluated for the duration of its flight, from liberation to landing.
* These rules approved unanimously by all members, Sept. 15, 1996.
Last Edited by on Jan 08, 2008 4:00 PM
|
3757
453 posts
Jan 08, 2008
5:54 PM
|
Paul - These rules are awesome. By the way in 1990 we had almost the same rules in the SBRC. We use almost the same ones for the PRC also. These rules not only help the flyer but in our old club almost everyones scores were within a factor of + or - 1 from each other. A great evaluation for individual spinners.
|
ezeedad
247 posts
Jan 08, 2008
6:23 PM
|
Thanks LaRon,
We hashed the rules out, but we never really got around to certifying any birds with them... I still thought they were pretty good.. Glad to hear that two good clubs have similar systems..
Paul
|
gotspin7
1159 posts
Jan 09, 2008
4:37 AM
|
Paul, thanks for sharing brother! Paul you guys did it right! Paul what if you posted the 30 point system that way the fellas on this site can put it together!LOL
----------
Sal Ortiz
Last Edited by on Jan 09, 2008 4:39 AM
|
ezeedad
251 posts
Jan 09, 2008
6:43 AM
|
Okay Sal,
I'd be glad to post the 30 point system.. Don't have time this sec.... but when I get back on the computer..
Paul
|
CSRA
1114 posts
Jan 09, 2008
7:54 AM
|
Later i will post are individual rules
|
COYOTE33
34 posts
Jan 09, 2008
11:18 AM
|
HEY PAUL!
I ALMOST FORGOT WE CAME TOGETHER SOME YEARS AND DID SOME
BRAINSTORMING ON CERTIFICATION. IM GLAD YOU KEPT THOSE RECORDS AND WAS ABLE TO SHARE IT WITH OTHERS. I HOPE WE CAN GO IN THIS DIRECTION AS A HOBBY. THAT WOULD BE GREAT FOR GUYS TO GET TOGETHER AND CERTIFY A CHAMPION. LETS DO IT.
COYOTE
|
ezeedad
252 posts
Jan 09, 2008
7:01 PM
|
Sal.
The 30 point system we used for judging the individual bird judges:
1. Speed on a scale of 1 thru 10..
2. Style on a scale of 1 thru 10..
3. Frequency/depth on a scale of 1 thru 10.
Add all three categories for the final score.
Frequency and depth are judged together to compensate for the fact that the deeper rollers will be less frequent . In the BCRC the highest any bird scored was 27.
I think that most experienced judges will give a fairly similar point value for each category.
Paul
|
ezeedad
253 posts
Jan 09, 2008
7:10 PM
|
Keith,
I think it would be a very good idea to have local clubs certify spinners. I've always believed that there should be more focus in individuals. If the SCRC started back up, or the LARC...or any other club started doing it, it would be a step in the right direction.
Hope you're feeling better...
Coyote...
We also worked out new kit competition rules.. I still have those too..
Paul
|
Skylineloft
882 posts
Jan 09, 2008
7:39 PM
|
Great topic,
I think L.A. will thrive on single bird competitions.
We have tons of kit competitions.
IM excited to see where this is going to go.
I hope to start some kind of single bird competition in the club I fly with.
We used to do it in the 90s. I think it would be good to do it again.
I herd there where some while I was out of birds.
I bet they where fun......
----------
Ray
Breeding Quality Spinners,
"One Roller At A Time".
|
crystalpalace
255 posts
Jan 09, 2008
8:50 PM
|
A Competition Roller should never be cosidered to be qualified for any certification whatsoever if they are under two years old. They have to be flown for two years or more to see if they are truly qualified. They can be great or brilliant before that but two years is a good time for certification and stocked for breeding purposes. I fly my birds longer than two years old before considering them to become breeders. This has proved benifical for breeding young rollers that are stable with less rolldown for me for fifty years. There are many roller fanciers that consider young birds for certification and stock birds but what is their track record for many years? I know what mine is and my stock has helped stabilize other breeders stock. Best regards in the roller breed. F.R.S.
|
ezeedad
255 posts
Jan 09, 2008
9:00 PM
|
FRS,
I agree that it is better to consider the birds over two years, but we put this minimum of fifteen months in our rules because of the increasing difficulty of flying our birds due to BOPs. Also this age is the minimum. it would be pretty unlikely that any bird would qualify for their third judging by that time, I think.
Also this is just our idea. Any club should feel free to adapt their rules to their areas or preferences.
Paul
Last Edited by on Jan 09, 2008 9:04 PM
|
Skylineloft
886 posts
Jan 09, 2008
9:06 PM
|
Ray,
I agree with what you are saying and think that if you live in a area that that is still possible today, thats how it should be done. With the family I breed I can tell you of people that fly holdover kits of birds that are 2 to 5 years old and place up in the top 10 every year with the same birds in the W/C and the FF. Where I live, unfortunately, when you see a champion in the air, you better get it before a bigger bird beats you to it. For me, you guys can keep your certification papers because birds that good do not last that long here anymore and I would rather have it in the stock pen instead of taking a chance of loosing it over a piece of paper.
No disrespect Ray, You been around a long time and what you say I take to heart.
But here we need to be able to recognize a good bird and give it credit for just that without putting it in harms way for that long of a time period.
----------
Ray
Breeding Quality Spinners,
"One Roller At A Time".
|
smoke747
478 posts
Jan 09, 2008
11:22 PM
|
Crystalpal, I agree with you for the most part, but how many birds do you think will actually make it two yrs? I myself would not risk a bird trying to get it certified when it could help better my family birds.
It should not be considered until a least 1yr of age. I think 6months is to early.
Paul, I would like to fly in a individual spinner fly club along with my other club. If larc gets going let me know.
smoke747
Last Edited by on Jan 09, 2008 11:28 PM
|
gotspin7
1166 posts
Jan 10, 2008
4:18 AM
|
Paul, thanks for sharing! I think that it opened some eyes out there and I think it went in the right direction!
----------
Sal Ortiz
|
3757
456 posts
Jan 10, 2008
6:31 AM
|
It is absolutely wonderful that now the fancy is looking at all aspects of the roller hobby.
Paul - The SGVS is currently reviewing the 30 point system that the SBRC and PRC uses which is not much different from yours.
|
ezeedad
256 posts
Jan 10, 2008
6:40 AM
|
This is good to see, LaRon...
In my opinion if the focus is brought back to emphasize the individual bird rather than the kit as a whole there will be more good individuals bred, and also more of those true waterfall breaks happening...
Keith... I see you're always ready to compete...!!
Sal, Thanks for suggesting that I post the rules...
Paul
|
smoke747
481 posts
Jan 10, 2008
2:34 PM
|
Paul,
I think that focusing on individual performance helps better your family all the way around. focusing on the individual performance of our birds will indeed improve on the quality of the breaks as far as spin, but waterfalls are about timming being off on the breaks. 20 top noch spinners could still give you waterfalls. the WC rules if followed will make you have to breed a higher quality of birds to be able to compete.
We need to get together in person on this subject so we can discuss and share views.
smoke747
|
Skylineloft
896 posts
Jan 10, 2008
7:39 PM
|
Keith,
I agree. I think that you can still breed a high quality bird that will break in unison. Thats why we have Q & D points in our fly system to give credit where credit is due.
----------
Ray
Breeding Quality Spinners,
"One Roller At A Time".
|
3757
458 posts
Jan 11, 2008
5:46 AM
|
Ray - I think we are mixing apples and oranges. I have a question but before I ask the question I want all to know that the goal should be rolling in unison with the highest possible velocity and style with frequency. Question - If a person receives the highest possible points for quality and depth how would you guess those birds performed if you did not see them fly (Just by looking at the results on the sheet)? Second, does the highest score giving for quality mean that the bird was spinning to the highest velocity and style possible? What is the gauge used to give the quality points? Is it not subjective? I believe that the kit competition rules and the individual rules are focusing on two different aspects of the hobby that are both needed but they need to remain separate for evaluation purposes. I do not believe there is a human alive that can evaluate all 20 birds for individual quality as well as depth, style and rolling in unison etc. Also, if you look at the 30 point system the goal is to get birds to the 26-30 point range for certification. We had only two in 5 years. Paul you can elaborate on the number that your club certified.
|
ezeedad
257 posts
Jan 11, 2008
6:34 AM
|
Keith,
I see that practically everybody likes to see those simultaneous breaks, but I've always preferred the waterfalls...that way you can better see what the different birds are doing... That's just my preference...
The WC rules award the most points for big breaks, right.?
More points for full turns that for speed,style and depth...
So if all 20 birds rolled simultaneous with average speed short, and passable style,...And twenty other birds went waterfall, each bird excellent speed style and depth..How many points would each group get?
Let's talk...
Paul
Last Edited by on Jan 11, 2008 6:35 AM
|
ezeedad
258 posts
Jan 11, 2008
6:45 AM
|
LaRon,
In the 30 point system, as we originally conceived it the 3 things we judged the birds on were---
1. Speed 2. Style 3 Frequency/depth
For a kit the LARC rules counted each bird rolling in judgable speed and style, gave extra for depth, and used
multipliers for both averages of speed and style.
Paul
|
COYOTE33
35 posts
Jan 11, 2008
6:53 AM
|
it seems to me this is very simple, we are focusing on two
aspects of the hobby, group and individual. you guys are right on the money when it comes to this subject especailly
you paul, how can you focus on two aspect. 3757 you are right we don't want to mix the two, going in the direction we're going will increase the standard. on the other hand the world cup will also increase high quailty birds as well. lets just divide the two.
coyote
|
3757
459 posts
Jan 11, 2008
8:14 AM
|
Paul - Same as SBRC and PRC. I will forward you our 30 point system and if you could please post it for me.
Thanks
|
COYOTE33
36 posts
Jan 11, 2008
8:48 AM
|
3757 what's up hav'nt talk you since ive been out to the house.
|
Skylineloft
900 posts
Jan 11, 2008
8:50 AM
|
LaRon,
On your first question. Its hard to tell because all judges will see them differently. Some judges are loose where others are tight. All you can do is look at how he judged all the kits overall to get a idea on how good this persons birds where. But you still will really never know without seeing them yourself.
On your second question. I agree with you, they need to be separate. I have yet to see someone give a kit a 2.0 X 2.0, but Steve Smith brought up a good point the other day on this list that I thought was interesting. lets say you flew a 20 bird kit and only 5 of those birds where spinning from that team, But, every time they broke, they where perfect. In quality and depth. The only birds that should be judged at that point are the birds that where spinning, so therefore they should get the highest Q & D that could be awarded.
One more thing on kit competition, and yes I do understand that single bird competition is important to this hobby. But I was at Willy Wrights house up in the desert a couple of months back and I have to say that there where at least 6 to 10 birds in that team if not more that was showing the hole when they broke as a team. If you where standing in the right spot to see this, it was quite a site to see. I understand that its hard to judge a kit of rollers, but I can tell you this, put a bird in that team that is switch winging or tail setting or not kiting and everyone will know it. When there all rolling correctly, yes its hard to tell just how well, but your not seeing the faults because the faults will stand out if you know what you are looking for.
I look foreword to single bird competition and I can't wait to see what comes of this in the future. I think nothing but good will come from it and will make all of us take a closer look at the quality we really are flying.
As always LaRon, I respect your opinions and I feel you are helping take this hobby to another level by standing strong in your opinions. I do hope to see you fly the W/C or the F/F one day with the rest of us. I think you would enjoy that as well.
----------
Ray
Breeding Quality Spinners,
"One Roller At A Time".
|
3757
461 posts
Jan 11, 2008
9:59 AM
|
Ray - Thank you so much and I feel that you and the entire fancy are doing a wonderful job as well. It is great that we can have intelligent discussions to help uplift the hobby without tearing each other down. Frankly, if we all start working together I feel that Bill Pensom's vision will finally come true having a kit of 20 perform with inconceivable speed and style rolling in unison. I have know Willie since 1979 when and he has always flown some great pigeons. Also, thanks for answering my questions. Ray I think I told you when you came by my house that I am a bit of a loner :)
Coyotee 33 - Everything is going ok.
Last Edited by on Jan 11, 2008 10:11 AM
|
smoke747
487 posts
Jan 11, 2008
11:12 AM
|
Paul, Laron,
I respect both of you opinions on these subjects. I have seen birds from both of your families perfom or produce performers that spun to the highest degree.
Laron if I were handed a score sheet with a score on it with all info on such as the breaks(amount of birds per break),acurate account of the time the breaks took place(5min, 10 min, 15min) along with the QXD, I could picture that kit in my mind but what I wouldn't be able to see are the details, like the red chk that was a blur or the blue chk w/f that was awesome, or the red that should have been culled. This is why I can't rebut what you said. Ican picture all of the birds rolling at 1.4 but that is not what happens. you get 1.1 ,1.3,1.7,1.5 and so on. because all of these are scorable the sheet will not show you what realy happened as far as quality or depth. LIKE I SAID IN ANOTHER POST, " THE HUMAN EYE IS NOT FAST ENUFF"!!!
The two should be kept seperate but close. Kit comp. can be a good training tool to help teach one how to judge birds incase they start breaking together. There is more I want to say on this but it will get longer. Like I said we need to get together in person soon.
smoke747
|
3757
462 posts
Jan 11, 2008
11:37 AM
|
Keith,
First, thank you for the compliment and thanks for the excellent explanation. Also, I hope you are feeling much better.
LaRon
|
smoke747
491 posts
Jan 11, 2008
12:12 PM
|
Thanks Laron,
I feeling much better. I think your views if understood would help the average breeder become a good breeder and the good breeder become great. I stopped breeding to win kit competitions about 3 yrs ago but intead concentrated on producing better spinning pigeons all around. I'm realy doing the same as you but I am trying to do it on a larger scale. Instead of breeding a "CHAMPION" I am trying to produce several at one time or in the same kit.
smoke747
Last Edited by on Jan 13, 2008 5:09 PM
|
3757
463 posts
Jan 11, 2008
12:37 PM
|
Keith - That is the goal and I am sure you will do it. I truly believe that in the last couple of years the fancy has made a lot of progress in working together and making these birds better in all aspects of the hobby. You also are a premier contributor to this. It is so funny as it seems like yesterday that I was 9 years old throwing oranges at my kit to scare them up!
|
Skylineloft
904 posts
Jan 11, 2008
1:03 PM
|
Just for the record Guys,
I feel like the ROOKIE here only being back in the hobby for one year. I would not feel comfortable judging kits yet and feel I still have allot to learn. Being able to discuss these issues with you guys really helps me better understand where I need to go and what I need to learn and understand in this hobby if IM ever going to improve what I have in my stock pen.
THANK YOU.
----------
Ray
Breeding Quality Spinners,
"One Roller At A Time".
|
gotspin7
1187 posts
Jan 12, 2008
5:16 AM
|
Paul, Laron, Keith and Ray, why dont you guys get this going again maybe a lot more will get the bug so we can make it on the National Level, or am I just dreaming!LOL
----------
Sal Ortiz
|
3757
469 posts
Jan 12, 2008
5:53 AM
|
Sal - One of the issues (It is not really and issue) is that the 30 point system was created (I am speaking for the SBRC and PRC) to certify birds based on speed, Style, frequency and depth. The 27-30 point range was and still is the goal. We only had two birds in 5 years that were certified as champion spinners and to reach the 27-30 point range. I think Paul's club had one. This system does however help in the growth of individuals understanding of the birds.
|
GREED FOR SPEED LOFT
376 posts
Jan 12, 2008
6:52 AM
|
Laron you are right and support you.For thr record and giving props the two SBRC cetified champion spinners were from --ART MARTINEZ-- and-- ARNOLD JACKSON.Super Nice birds in the air...
R-LUNA
|
3757
473 posts
Jan 12, 2008
8:14 AM
|
Richard, that was nice mentioning the two that we had certified. Do you remember Arnold motivating me one day when I ask him about a particular bird (Blue check). He said it was a good spinner but if you fly that one against Arts bird you will get your feelings hurt! Well, he was right because the bird that we certified for Art was amazing as well as Arnold bird! I have known Arnold since the 70's and he is a gem to the fancy.
|
ezeedad
259 posts
Jan 13, 2008
1:00 AM
|
The 30 point system as adopted by the PRC... Courtesy of LaRon...Thanks
Last Edited by on Jan 13, 2008 11:12 AM
|
3757
480 posts
Jan 13, 2008
6:13 AM
|
Thanks Paul!
|
smoke747
506 posts
Jan 13, 2008
5:17 PM
|
Paul, those rules are cool except the DQ of a bird that hits another bird while rolling.
other than that,GREAT!
SMOKE747
|
3757
483 posts
Jan 13, 2008
5:41 PM
|
Smoke - That clause is in regards to BOP.
Last Edited by on Jan 13, 2008 5:42 PM
|
smoke747
513 posts
Jan 14, 2008
11:34 AM
|
OK I got it. Thanks alot.
smoke747
|
