Skylineloft
905 posts
Jan 11, 2008
2:46 PM
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It all depends on who you are getting the bird from ?
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Ray
Breeding Quality Spinners,
"One Roller At A Time".
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W@yne
919 posts
Jan 11, 2008
3:04 PM
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I would only pick my stock birds from the performance of that bird in the air.
If you go for the expression alone this can lead to a bum steer.
1,Performance in the air
2, Feel of the bird in the hand (Balance)
3,Feather quality.
These traits are all that lead me to the stock pen
If all the above meet the the standard that I'm looking for then then there is no doubt in my mind the pigeon would enter my stock loft.
Picking a bird from the perch i believe Bill Pensom could do just that but i beg to differ if anyone can mirror that trait the Master had.
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Regards
W@yne UK
Patience Perseverance Perfection
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Last Edited by on Jan 11, 2008 3:14 PM
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J T
128 posts
Jan 11, 2008
3:09 PM
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Wayne is correct.
To stock a bird he has to show me
something in the air before he /she breeds.
JT
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luis
500 posts
Jan 11, 2008
3:44 PM
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For a newbie such as myself picking from the air is best.You know what they do and can pair up accordingly.I did not do this!I got my birds from some good breeders and that was that!
Some people have a good eye(experience)and can pick them from the perch!Yet when you really think about it genetics is a very complicated subject(especially in pigeons).With some good genes in the pool,a little luck and good observations you can build a good family of birds.
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2077 posts
Jan 11, 2008
4:28 PM
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A newbie would be better to pick from the air, an experienced roller man flying his own family can, does and should also pick from the ground.
In my view, "either - or" scenarios are self-limiting, but for those who don't understand or have trouble understanding the roller beyond the roll, perhaps they should only consider picking from the air. That's my opinion George.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
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RUDY..ZUPPPPP
943 posts
Jan 11, 2008
4:49 PM
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Good Advice Wayne................
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RUDY PAYEN
PANCHO VILLA LOFT
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Santandercol
1762 posts
Jan 11, 2008
5:56 PM
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When you say a Newbie is better off picking birds to buy after seeing them fly,consider that a newcomer to our hobby may not know what the heck to look for as far as what is the best type of spinner to breed new stock from.I'm still figuring it out after 2 seasons flying.It takes time to understand what is the best type of bird.I've been lucky and reputable flyers have laid stock on me free to work with,but still it will take time to get a handle on WHAT I should breed from in the future.----------
Kel.
Rum-30 Lofts
Last Edited by on Jan 11, 2008 5:57 PM
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Donny James
248 posts
Jan 11, 2008
7:26 PM
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i have to agree with wayne.................donny james
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birdman
469 posts
Jan 11, 2008
7:26 PM
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George,
I don't believe a bird is worth anything until it's proven either in the air or in the breeding pen.
Birds picked from the perch COULD be worth more if they turn out to be good producers but I would rather see a bird fly first. If the bird chosen from the air can't produce, it's still worthy of flying in the kit whereas if the bird picked from the perch can't produce it's only worth may be as a foster parent.
Russ
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centralvalleylofts
89 posts
Jan 11, 2008
8:37 PM
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they both have merit when used correctly.no one should pick a bird on the ground unless he has worked with that particular famaly for a certain amout of years.and has develope a certain understanding of the famaly such as character and type of course even then you might be wrong.
but depending upon the situations such as starting out.have someone with experience pick the birds for you. or the breeder himself if known for his honesty.
their is nothing certain about rollers.you must have patience to get ahead.the best way to make sure you get the best stock is to join a club. or go to the flys and hear what people thought of the birds and to see who has the best. only then you might have an undertanding of this
concept. and be farther ahead of the game.
central.
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Flipmode
39 posts
Jan 11, 2008
8:52 PM
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Birdman(Russ) you hit it! If it does'nt produce and you stock it from the perch it's basically lunch meat! Flying them first gives you a backup plan (breeder or back to the kitbox)!
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GREED FOR SPEED LOFT
372 posts
Jan 11, 2008
8:55 PM
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You can pick a bird from the ground, reading the bird upon its type and signs.It is nice to see the bird in the air to satisfy or have a peace of mind at that but the final decision is in the stock loft.
R-LUNA
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smoke747
495 posts
Jan 11, 2008
9:14 PM
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Every one cannoot pick a bird from the perch. Some pick birds that they saw fly and were real good. The bird is then put into the stock loft along with another bird that was not flown. both birds produce 5 young. the bird that was flown babies receive more merit from the start but at the end of the season the tally is 3 -2 in favor of the inflown bird. the unflown bird can out produce the flown bird for three years and never get the same credit as the flown bird even though he is out producing him. now why is
this so??
the flown bird becomes the favorite BUT NOT THE BEST
SMOKE747
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luis
501 posts
Jan 11, 2008
9:26 PM
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So Keith would it be safe to say you should breed offspring back to the parents to trace were the good genes are coming from or is there a different way of going about it?I would like to figure out wich of my stock birds are the prepotent birds with dominant genes.It makes for easier selection.
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Flipmode
41 posts
Jan 11, 2008
9:31 PM
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Hey Smoke747 that should NOT be the case! The task for a bird in the stock loft is to Produce! If the bird was unflown, had 1 leg, 1 wing and 1 eye but produced quility offspring thats the best bird hands down! That bird is doing its job. That other bird producing 2 out of 5 would be back in the kitbox.
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Bill C
48 posts
Jan 11, 2008
10:18 PM
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George, Once you have birds and get to see that family fly, eventually you can make good guesses as to some that will just have the look and body type you've seen roll good from your birds. It will be harder if you have several different strains though. Ihave some grizzles that roll best with short coby bodies for that Jac family, but the best velocity rollers come from slightly long cast birds in the Red check family I have.
I think the question pick from the perch may relate to what Pensom said, But that is you fly your kit and pick the best body type on the ground out of the best four that flew in that kit. He could as mentioned just look and recognize the qualtiy by expression. The rest of us have to see them in the air and pick the best on the perch out of those four not out of those 20. Befriend the roller guy you know if that is who you want birds from. Sounds like you could also call Tony here and have him pick you out some birds to start out with. BIll C
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Skylineloft
915 posts
Jan 11, 2008
10:26 PM
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Gee, I guess I totally miss read this post....lol Sure not the first time for me. Sure it wont be the last.....lol
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Ray
Breeding Quality Spinners,
"One Roller At A Time".
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DeepSpinLofts
228 posts
Jan 12, 2008
3:54 AM
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I've been dealing with roller pigeons since 1975 and got serious about them in 1983. Over the years I've learned that it's best to pick great performing birds out of the air for stock purposes. However, a true breeder, trainer & flyer of these magnificent birds can quite often pick a bird off the perch if he/she is familar with a particular family or strain of rolling pigeons.
I strongly feel that it takes trial & error to develop a good family of rollers. Therefore my philosophical approach would be very much similar to Waynes in a fundamental sense. Then again, Smoke747 makes a rather interesting viewpoint regarding this issue for those of us with enough insight and experience with rolling champion performing pigeons.
Smoke says: "Some pick birds that they saw fly and were real good. The bird is then put into the stock loft along with another bird that was not flown."
Hmmm... interesting.
I would only stock a bird from a CHAMPION... or anything that comes very close in the air to a champion rolling pigeon.
NOTE: Many folks (NEWBIES) buy themselves into what started as good birds. After they lock them up and try breeding & flying with lack of knowledge and poor management; they blame it on the birds, the breeder or something else.
GOOD ADVICE:
My advice is to pick birds out of the air or get birds from a reputable breeder/flyer. Mate pairs together as prescribed by the person you acquired the rollers from. The most important step next is to carefully study and thoroughly learn what it takes to develop your own family. Try to be consistent and persevere with a "COMMITTMENT to EXCELLENCE" by only breeding "BEST to BEST"!
MEMO: The gratification of breeding good birds that others want to see perform in flight is what all of us are after.
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
Last Edited by on Jan 12, 2008 3:30 PM
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gotspin7
1181 posts
Jan 12, 2008
4:58 AM
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Keith, Marcus good posts! Oops Wayne you too!LOL
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Sal Ortiz
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smoke747
501 posts
Jan 12, 2008
10:11 AM
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Luis what i do is, when I bring a bird in from the kit I put it to a reletive that is already a PROVEN producer of that bird might need to make better spinners. The key words are NEED TO MAKE BETTER.
SMOKE747
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SiDLoVE
114 posts
Jan 12, 2008
10:28 AM
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If your new with your family dont pick from the perch unless its all u got to breed from to test.. But when you find your prepotent producers its o.k to get it from the perch which only those who have had there family for years and know which birds they are .
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gator45juice
20 posts
Jan 12, 2008
1:09 PM
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Hey guys I need some help understanding what Tony is saying. He recommends picking from the air, but his Ruby Rollers are for sale on the internet???? Is the newbie or any one for that matter supposed to trust that these "Ruby Rollers' will produce? Even after never seeing them fly. Please explain, because I know many who have trusted other roller fanciers, and purchased birds that were not seen in the air only to wind up with JUNK!
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2078 posts
Jan 12, 2008
2:35 PM
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Hey Walter,
Sounds to me like you are calling me untrustworthy? Not a great way to treat the host of the site by attacking me. I am sure that was not your intention, right? LOL
Walter, it seems to me that your attitude in your post suggests that you think you “caught” me in some kind of a contradiction or a lie, perhaps? How long you and skeptics been waiting for that to happen? LOL Well keep on waiting…You don’t need the “guys” to answer for me, I can do that for you.
For MY response to the question by George, the context IS as I attempted to respond: AFTER a newbie has the stock from a reputable breeder with a proven family (I like to think of myself as reputable), the newbie should THEN fly out the youngsters from this stock and THEN pick from the air as he does not yet have the time, experience or understanding of the family to pick from the ground.
He may never.
Walter, I have been working with this family since 1993 when I got them as young birds, by the way, never seeing them fly; in the years since I started flying and breeding them, and to the point, I have seen more than a fair share of good and very good birds.
Those who know the background of these birds, the breeders before me who bred and flew their descendants, will understand these Ruby Rollers come from fine Birmingham Roller stock.
Walter, when a fancier works with quality stock and spends the time necessary to learn about and understand the birds, he will, over time, begin to have good success, recognize quality birds within that family.
Walter, I never sold 1 bird from this family before I worked with them for over 10 years. For the record, I was asked by someone to buy my birds before I ever even sold one of them.
Walter, to provide you with a better understanding of what I do, let me explain for you. When I sell my birds, I don’t tell the person these birds are champions or are the best rollers around nor do I make outlandish statements about them.
In general, I explain their background, how I have worked with them over the years, studying and getting them as close to the ideal Birmingham Roller that I can as I understand it; that what he is buying is the “gene-pool”. It is up to the new fancier to learn the birds and become proficient at breeding and flying them.
I also tell them to call me or email me when they have questions. It is quite common for me to chat for 30 to 90 minutes on the phone providing support by answering questions and insight when I can.
Walter, like I said, I never saw any of the birds I first got - fly before I acquired them. I did trust the fancier and knew he had good birds. I can only speak for me. For me, TRUSTING did work out.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
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Windjammer Loft
143 posts
Jan 12, 2008
3:06 PM
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Here Here TONY.......I guess you put Walter right back in his place,right where he belongs. Thanks you Tony ,and a PROUD owner of 2 pr of Ruby Rollers. And I might add both pair are on eggs.......... Breeding and Flying for the future.
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Fly High and Roll On
Paul
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gator45juice
21 posts
Jan 12, 2008
5:39 PM
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"I can dig it Tony", I was not calling you a liar or saying that you were untrustworthy, I was simply stating that if you truly want to know what you are purchasing, it is definitely best to pick from the air. Unless, as you said, they are from a reputable breeder that you have seen fly quality spinners. I am just speaking from experience. I have purchased birds from so called reputible breeders, that did in fact have good blood, but did not necessarily breed their birds in a manner that would produce quality offspring. I guess what I am trying to say is that in the past I purchased stock from several breeders without ever seeing the birds fly. Incidentally, I would get some good rollers, maybe a spinner or two, but nothing to be held in high esteem. I am simply saying that there are quite a few feather merchants out there. Personally, I would only buy birds from a breeder who is winning or at least placing high in State flys, Club flys, and of course the World cup etc....
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2079 posts
Jan 12, 2008
5:54 PM
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Hey Walter, sorry I misunderstood your intentions. As for your choices, "to each his own". Thanks for clarifying your position and being a sport about it!
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
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Alohazona
382 posts
Jan 12, 2008
6:23 PM
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Walter,
Like any line of birds,its best to fly them and try them.I have flown Tony's birds for a long while and they are very well bred birds.What I mean is the birds are consistant in size,very healthy,well muscled,frequent,deep,and show quality in the roll,kit well and do not tend to sky out.I'm not exactly sure you can get much better even if they were birds from a top 10 world competitor.When I fly out my birds it's not all about performance,but they must roll and do it much more than once or twice an outing.Just like all lines that have been been bred tight for ten years plus,the work has been done ,but it doesn't stop there.Yes, you must have it in your line of birds.If you do and your birds don't show their worth,more likely than not it's the man in the mirror....Aloha,Todd
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