smoke747
680 posts
Jan 29, 2008
9:38 AM
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Mr. Luna,
In the 80's there were flyers that had some of the best rollers/spinners you could see fly. Now when you see their birds, they barely have a bird worth mentioning. In your opinion what happened to their birds.
I ask you this because you are a respected breeder and it would help others along with myself on the things to watch out for so we wont hit the same wall.
smoke747
Last Edited by on Jan 29, 2008 9:47 AM
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GREED FOR SPEED LOFT
404 posts
Jan 29, 2008
10:19 AM
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Kieth you asked a GREAT question .I will put my thoughts on paper and post in a bit.But Kieth no more MR.LUNA,please.LOL..I belive also that you wont loose it and know how to breed good birds.
R-LUNA
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smoke747
685 posts
Jan 29, 2008
10:24 AM
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No problem greed.
smoke747
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PR_rollers
459 posts
Jan 29, 2008
8:33 PM
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LOL speed ,Smoke is just a gentlemen..kind of guy i like to hang with ..smokeeeeeeeeeee what's happening my bro..???
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Ralph....
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Shadow
23 posts
Jan 30, 2008
12:45 AM
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In total agreement Red Hot Question, looking forward to answers.
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Bill C
67 posts
Jan 30, 2008
1:01 AM
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I am not an expert by any means but The reason we do not see as many good spinning rollers is because of a few reasons. Many guys have never seen a champion roller, The biggest reason is guys want to win in the WC and for that you need frequency and 10 foot rollers.
Bill Pensom warned this would happen later on as it had in his time. He wrote and taught what a bird should be and what we should be breeding towards to inform others. He was indeed a teacher of the birmingham roller in it's purest form.
Many of the back yard flyers are put down for not competing, when they may very well have better birds and some are talkers that just can't admit they have tumblers instead of rollers.
A local guy here is working on forming an individual performing competiton. This is the best way to keep the true performing roller continuing to be bred.
I compete in the fall fly and W/C and local flies but I really am a back yard flyer who one day hope to have the type of rollers Bill Pensom had. It takes years to learn the body type and all that goes along with a great roller. Someone can't just tell me what to do, I have to watch the birds, feel the best rollers and learn what is seperating this one from the rest that I have.
The bottom line is when you get a kit ready for comp it takes time and some work to put up a good team but they are not 20 champion rollers. They are the most stable, most frequent and deepest birds you can have, but that special roller that might roll with extreme velocity that rolls 45 feet just won't make it in the team if it is an out bird working harder than the rest. In my oppinion there you have it.
The WC and fall fly has helped to keep the birds somewhat decent by giving higher quality and depth multiplyers but the average guy needs to put as many birds as he can to get the most out of 20 minutes and that is why we have less quality today.
One day I got out of my back yard and saw Joe Borges bird fly. I was amazed even memorized for that fly. I sought after his birds and he graciously sold me some. I knew that day that I saw a World Cup Champion birds fly. No they did not score 900 points, but they were fast and the quality that I had not seen in such deep, stable birds before. I had seen many kits and Still like many birds I see at friends houses, but I knew then what Pensom was talking about. I also have some birds from Joe Kiser, Joe Urban, Dave Henderson and Chandler Grover.
I would have stuck with the Jaconnets I started with if I wanted to win the W/C. I am not seeking 6 month wonders to raise a winning kit each year. I am looking for birds that may not roll until the second year or even the third year. They all roll if you keep them long enough. Along the way I will compete but once I get to those few blurs in the air I will have succeded my goal and will continue to try and raise more and learn along the way. Luckily for us Bill Pensom left us his legacy in writting.
I didn't mean to affend anyones birds that do well in kit competiton, they have a place in the roller world too, it's just that we need a single bird ( velocity and quality ) championship too. That will keep the birds that roll like this: " The true Birmingham roller which turns over backwards with inconceivable rapidity through a considerable distance like a spinning ball". comming. Not in a kit of 20 though. But one in a kit of 5 or 20. Bill C
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3757
542 posts
Jan 30, 2008
6:12 AM
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Bill C - Excellent post!!!!! I read another post and I did not respond due to the fact that it amazes me how people misinterpret good dialogue and discussion. Your post will also be misinterpreted and they will say you are saying that you have better birds etc. I know this is not what you are saying and I believe that in order to grow we should be able to have good dialogue without everyone wanted someone to come out and fight. Some people just do not want to be bothered and are ok doing their own thing. Bill it seems today that if you have a different goal from what is mainstream today some feel that you are off target. Some even scorn Bill Pensom and what he stood for! Bill, I would love to speak with you offline.
Last Edited by on Jan 30, 2008 6:18 AM
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2112 posts
Jan 30, 2008
6:42 AM
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Hey Bill, good post! My passion is for the Ideal Birmingham Roller, that's how I started and thats how I want to end!
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
Last Edited by on Jan 30, 2008 6:48 AM
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ezeedad
297 posts
Jan 30, 2008
6:42 AM
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Keith,
I think you're trying to get some of us older breeders to get back out there.. And It's tempting... even though we can't really fly our birds out the way they should be flown.. and that's a drag. But I'm going to try as soon as I get time, because I'm sure that I still have it. No crossing... picking by experience.. etc.. Crossing would ruin all my work...
Paul
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3757
543 posts
Jan 30, 2008
7:07 AM
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Amen Tony!
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bigwilly
284 posts
Jan 30, 2008
7:22 AM
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Hey Bill. That was a great post about one of the only ones that i fully read. Good job
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CSRA
1273 posts
Jan 30, 2008
7:44 AM
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Very good post i really enjoyed reading it but what some fellow bird men fell to realize it is a different type of comp. not knocking the individual guys it's just guys who breed for the one true spinner they do not show it. Has been all talk and no show i would love to see the individual guys put on a individual champion fly so we can all see it that would be wonderful i would like to be apart of it please make it happen Pensom talk it and he showed it no disrespect to you individual guys because i also fly individual
Goodluck on putting them up
CSRA
Last Edited by on Jan 30, 2008 12:23 PM
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sundance
419 posts
Jan 30, 2008
7:47 AM
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bill, that was well written and right on key. I cant say I totally agree and am only working on that one champion roller as you mentioned as the true Birmingham roller, but I understand your side of it.I am wanting the kit of high velocity,tight spinning, 20 to 30 foot birds, because like you said , that is what it takes to do well in competition. But it would be great to see a good program for a single bird competition, to help develope rollers closer to the ideal as individuals.
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Butch @
Sundance Roller Lofts
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3757
544 posts
Jan 30, 2008
8:34 AM
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CSRA - The thing that puzzles me is that I know you have seen an individual champion because when I visited you years ago you flew one. You know what it looks like so the logic is unclear when we are discussing this issue.
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CSRA
1278 posts
Jan 30, 2008
9:26 AM
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With in the birmingham roller are multi dimensions of roll which allows you to extract what ever form of roll you desire to bring to the for front whether its kit comp or individual comp or show comp why should i be limited to just individual roll Pensoms said they are all enjoyable i do appreciate a good spinner who does not enjoy a good kit of high quality rollers the true spinner is RARE true are not true? I myself has never seen anyone put up a kit of 20 spinning champions did Pensom do it?
Last Edited by on Jan 30, 2008 12:26 PM
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CSRA
1279 posts
Jan 30, 2008
9:30 AM
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Guys no disrespect to any of the guys who breed for the one true champion!
Laron i know whats going on it just would like get someone to get the individual comp. going if i get the classic going would you take part i am thinking about taking time off and fly the classic (California)
Last Edited by on Jan 30, 2008 9:33 AM
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elopez
451 posts
Jan 30, 2008
9:48 AM
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Steve count me in. Let us know if you will be doing it this year.
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Efren Lopez
SGVS
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3757
545 posts
Jan 30, 2008
9:50 AM
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Steve - If you get the classic going with individual rules I will send birds each year that you have it in existence.
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CSRA
1280 posts
Jan 30, 2008
10:04 AM
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3757 sounds good to me i am really considering it we will get together soon and talk about it
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GREED FOR SPEED LOFT
406 posts
Jan 30, 2008
10:18 AM
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Kieth,heres my opinion based on my experience.I believe that when you had seen good rollers/spinners in the past and you dont now,,, one reason is the LACK OF UNDERSTANDING how to breed and to breed the right components and to maintain them geneticaly.....Any one can put two rollers together and get some roll,, but to what avail in quality or calibre.... Money also is a factor,,they buy good kits or birds to get into someone else fame ,thinking they have it made but the reality is knowing how to breed and train them,,they dont see it in a year and they get rid of them or sale them, from being inpatient,,, others get the hunger for money so they pair up birds not considering maintaining the components of quality structure,, just to sale for money......... Another reason would be that EGO plays in it also.Guys are to PROUD to use another quality bird from someone else on what they are lacking or need, because they want only there line or to see it on there pedigree............ Not all lines have the quality of spin,style,and frequency but it is our choice of what we want.The kit comp scene is totally different from the high calibre scene.You can have both entity's at the same time the thing is reconizing breeding for it,,, and being honest with yourself.....ANYONE can breed great QUALITY ROLLERS/SPINNERS for years and years,,,,keeping in focus and knowing the right reason for the components needed in your birds or family when it comes time to breed.........My thoughts are what is needed to develop sound spinners(velocity-style)is:
1.make sure the family or birds have speed=velocity in high percentage.
2.the length of back and strong for clean deep rolls
3.muscling on chest and back
4.wing feathers must be louvered and refined
5.frequency in the family
6.character
Keeping these in mind will give you spinners in your family for years in percentage.
Yes you will have culls still ,,"IT IS A NEVER MADE IN THE SHADE "--"IT IS A GIVE AND TAKE" in this game....
The SBRC had numerus guys that flew these kind of birds, that were possible champions.That we merited the birds for there worth ,,,nothing else or no one else.
Thanks KIETH(SMOKE-747)
R-LUNA
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smoke747
694 posts
Jan 30, 2008
11:06 AM
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Thank you very much greed, well put.
Laron what CSRA trying to say is, some individual flyers make it seem like kit competition is holding back the production of the true spinning rollers. If this is the case, they should lead by example and show what a true spinner is suppose to do as far as performance. Its like SHOW and tell. There is tell but no show.
Like I said before, I have seen Arnold Jackson back his birds up with there performance, I've seen birds from your birds that can spin as well as Paul's.
Frequency is not the key to winning kit competitions, it is the large breaks with good multipliers.
question;
Are the individual flyers best birds in their kits any faster than the best birds in the competition kits?
smoke747
ps the norwood family produced some of the fastest spinners I've seen as far percentages go.
Last Edited by on Jan 30, 2008 12:36 PM
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3757
546 posts
Jan 30, 2008
12:38 PM
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Smoke - First, thanks for the compliment on my birds as well as the other fancier you mentioned. Oftentimes fanciers do not give positive feedback. I have seen great spinners out of Arnolds and Pauls stock also. The bird that Steve flew years ago was awesome as well. If an individual flier is saying that then he or she needs to re-examine their statements because this is not the case. What I do not understand is that a person can have a particular goal and it could be different from someone else’s goal (individual /Kit). This does not mean that one is better than the other. I have always focused on the individual bird because this is what I believe in. Because some individual fliers have the wrong attitude does not mean everyone is the same. It is almost like stereotyping ethnic groups which is wrong.
As far as the best performers I have seen Blass, Sparkes, Cooper, Niebels, Borges, Saldana, Hilton’s, Richard Luna, Elliot Norwood,Thurmond Davis, Bob Scotts and some of the Plona strains also that spin to the utmost as well as others. I would venture to say that the best high velocity birds in percentages always were down from the Pensom strain as far as the ones that I have seen. Some people are very content in their club flying or backyard also and are not interested in World Cup and the other large fly’s. I respect these individuals and I know personally that some of them are serious roller breeders. Some individuals feel that if you do not fly for the largest roller club in America that you do not fly and this type of thinking is not logical (Smoke this is not towards you but a general statement). Smoke thanks again for the compliment and the awesome work you are doing for the hobby.
P.S – What is that white grizzle down from the I chose at the SGVS show?
Last Edited by on Jan 30, 2008 12:52 PM
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smoke747
702 posts
Jan 30, 2008
12:56 PM
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Laron' that is why I said, (some). I like the individual also but I'm trying to breed several good individuals to make up a strong team.
call me; I'll e-mail you my number. Did you call Marlon Morton?
smoke747
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3757
547 posts
Jan 30, 2008
3:17 PM
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Smoke - It was great speaking with you today!
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ezeedad
298 posts
Jan 30, 2008
6:57 PM
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Richard,
That was a really great post...A lot of roller wisdom there..!! And it came from years of experience and observation.. That's a good one to read and then re-read again..!!
Thanks,.. Paul
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MGS LOFT
43 posts
Jan 30, 2008
9:33 PM
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HEY RICHARD ,REAL GOOD EDVICE ON HOW TO START AND KEEP UR FAMALY OF BIRDS WITH!!!
PERFORMENS..............
FREQUECY................
VILOCITY................
DEPT....................
SPEED...................
EXPRETION...............
AND AFTER THAT THERE ALL CHINGON,TRUCHAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!
BIG MAURO MGS LOFT (HOT CHOCOLATE LINE)
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Bill C
68 posts
Jan 30, 2008
9:37 PM
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Hello 3757, A lot has gone on since I was here last night reading. You could email me Cridercrader@aol.com and I can send you back my phone number and you can call me sometime if you like.
You were right that some misunderstood what I was really talking about. But the new posts on a similar subject is definately good conversation from all who post and to engage in a discussion about what is the ideal roller is just something that needs to be brought to the attention of others new to the sport from time to time, this is how I became aware of the fact that there were some really good birds outside the top ten world cup flies. I was told by some comments like " Yea those Pensom birds can roll fast but who wants to wait 5 minutes to see a fast roll". That was just not a fair comment to a new guy like me 5 or 6 years ago who didn't know any better. Anyway. Like Martin Luther King, " I have a dream ". I need to work towards that and learn from the friends I have and the friends I make, to share what I learn to help others in the process of enjoying these birds that have brought me great pleasure and long lasting friendship. Bill C
Last Edited by on Jan 30, 2008 9:42 PM
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CSRA
1282 posts
Jan 30, 2008
11:11 PM
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Bill I did not misunderstand read my post CSRA
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CSRA
1283 posts
Jan 30, 2008
11:17 PM
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Laron very well said good job once again
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luis
587 posts
Jan 31, 2008
1:57 AM
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Very informative thread guys and very well put.We can have both through proper selection.How do you guys feel about crossing different strains in order to acomplish or introduce certain factors(and no i'm not talking about color-strictly performance).
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3757
549 posts
Jan 31, 2008
5:56 AM
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Thanks CSRA - Does your club use the same individuals rules as Arnold Jackson?
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