DeepSpinLofts
246 posts
Jan 30, 2008
3:44 AM
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There are times when we as flyers may encounter a slack in the frequency of rolling in our family of birds that we have graciously learned to enjoy. To be straight forward; stiff rollers is in reference to birds that are not rolling much in the air; basically just on the wing (flying a lot).
Several factors may contribute to our rollers becoming stiff in the air because each breeder/trainer/flyer has a slightly different method of caring for his/her family of birds. With my birds, an excellent feed that "un-stiffens" them is a well blended mixture of wheat and milo. I go with about a 50/50 mixture and it seems to help their aerial performance quite dramatically.
NOTE: If you do feed this milo/wheat mixture, then try and make sure that you are giving your birds a few tablespoons of Canary seeds... say about twice a week 2 to 3 hours before you fly them. You might be surprised at their performance later.
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
Last Edited by on Jun 02, 2008 5:44 AM
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bigwilly
285 posts
Jan 30, 2008
7:29 AM
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Hey Deep Spin. I noticed last summer when I fed my birds straight wheat that they were really active. I asked myself is feeding straight wheat healthy for te birds. I mean is their enough nutrition in feeding straight wheat or is that where the milo comes in.Let me know
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DeepSpinLofts
248 posts
Jan 30, 2008
8:36 AM
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I've noticed with my family wheat alone will cause them to fly faster & higher. Milo will often help induce the roll, loose weight and do other things for rolling pigeons.
Personally speaking, I don't think you should feed straight wheat (every day) for ever with kit birds. It can possibly screw up their intellectual capabilities (brain functioning). On rest days try adding some Peas (a legume source high in protein) to their diet along with a little Buckwheat & Canary or Parakeet seed (make sure there's no sunflower seeds with shells in the mix). This should add some vigor & vitality to their little pigeon bodies before you break them back down on the Wheat diet again. Feed them according to how they look, feel & behave. Also, observe the droppings for any abnormalities in fecal matter.
Big Willy, it's important that you learn the make up of each grain and it's nutrient content. Based upon that factor alone, you can moderately adjust the amount of each grain according to what you would like for your birds to do in the air.
Keep in mind that just 1 or 2 days of experimentation will not give you a true reading of your birds physiological conditioning. It takes time... so be very patient with them.
NOTE: If you feed only milo you may experience some inconsistency in flight time with this particular grain, however, simply feeding wheat only... you might encounter a few more breaks during turns. Below is a general break-down of these 2 grains nutritional value.
1) Wheat is 17.9% Protein & 1.6% Crude Fat
....while
2) Milo is 8.85% Protein & 3% Fat and high in Carbs. In my opinion milo increases their energy levels. But I still think that a clean combination would be a 50/50 mix of red milo & whole wheat to achieve the best possible results with kit flyers.
Now for a moment let's jump off-topic to other birds in the loft. Someone recommended a super formulated feed ration without corn called Purgrain Breeder/Conditioner 16% NO CORN. It's a feed that's designed specifically for growing young birds or conditioning older ones.
Purgrain Breeder/Conditioner 16% "NO CORN" Contains: Canada Peas, Red Milo, White Kafir, Maple Peas, Oat Groats, Austrian Peas, Whole Wheat, Safflower Seed, White Millet, Red Millet, Canary Seed, Vetch, Buckwheat, Rice.
I'm thinking about purchasing some of this Purgrain to see how it works on my birds. A lady friend who raises chickens recommended that I try switching up the feed.
Now I said to myself; what would a chicken breeder know about rolling pigeons?
Oh well, I'll switch up the feed anyway to see what happens. When I talk to her she seems like such a smart lady when it comes to all kinds of bird species.
Take care BW....
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
Last Edited by on Feb 01, 2008 2:05 AM
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DeepSpinLofts
256 posts
Jan 31, 2008
2:28 AM
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Jumping a little bit off topic again... but since we are intelligently discussing grains & stuff.... I felt that it wouldn't be necessary to start a new thead.
Another grain I've recently started experimenting with is Flaxseed. I've read various reports about its benefits to pigeons in the past and went to my local supermarket and purchased about 1lb of organic Flaxseed to see how it would affect my birds.
Flaxseed was added to my breeders diet as means of enriching eggs with omega-3 fatty acids. Based upon what I've read from research at the secondary level, no more than 8% of your feed mixture should have Flaxseed in it.
There was something I did notice, which was a high level of food intake by my birds. Done more reasearch and found that it's conceivable it may be related to the digestibility factors of the seeds by the birds or to the birds response to anti-nutrients. The anti-nutrients in flaxseed are phyto-estrogens (lignans), the vitamin B6 antagonist linatine, and goitrogenic thiocynates.
In conclusion let me add that I won't use this particular seed to often as I've noticed a rather oily/watery type of a poop in my birds that smell somewhat peculiar. It's not that we expect to walk into our loft and hope it smells like Irish Spring soap in there..., however, we don't want it to smell like Limburger cheese either.
NOTE: Limburger is especially known for its pungent odor. The bacterium used to ferment Limburger cheese and other rind-washed cheeses is Brevibacterium linens; this same bacterium is found on human skin and is partially responsible for human body odor.
{P.S.} It's about 2:20 a.m. (PST) and I'm headed out to my barn to check on my birds mental & physical health.
Remember ====> "Health is Wealth"!
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
Last Edited by on Jan 31, 2008 2:36 AM
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smoke747
715 posts
Jan 31, 2008
5:32 PM
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Deepspin, unless you know when to change the feed, the will still go back to being stiff after a while.
The best way is to cultivate your birds for the task in which you desire of them. This way when you tweek the feed at the right time your birds will perform beyond your expectations.
smoke747
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Shadow
27 posts
Feb 01, 2008
12:18 AM
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Nice one Deepspin,envious as I only have to look forward to some great pints of Irish Guinness,with rollers or most other birds varitey of seed is important,with barley in my instance being a basic, when used on a regular basis,droppings are seldom loose,which is a good indicator of inner well being,so its barley,with many other seeds if and when required.
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DeepSpinLofts
262 posts
Feb 01, 2008
2:00 AM
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Hi Shadow....
Barley is a good grain for the birds digestive tract. The whole hulled variety is exceptionally rich in fiber. Barley contains more insoluble fiber (the kind thought to protect us humans against colon cancer) than whole wheat.
You'll find barley in these 3 forms:
1) Whole Hulled Barley -- Considered the most nutritious form of Barley, it has only the outer husk removed.
2) Scotch Barley -- Known also as pot barley. This grain is husked, the bran removed, and then it is coarsely ground.
3) Pearled Barley -- The pearl variety is definitely the most processed version of Barley. It's actually the easiest to find. The bran has been removed and this particular grain is steamed & polished. Vitamins and minerals are usually added back.
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
Last Edited by on Feb 01, 2008 2:01 AM
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J_Star
1532 posts
Feb 01, 2008
5:10 AM
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Wheat for human consumption don’t have anywhere to 17% protein. It is around 15-16%. Wheat for animal feed is around 9 to 12% at most. However, Canadian red wheat is about 15 to 16%.
Don’t use canary seed to much or you will pay a heavy price.
Jay
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DeepSpinLofts
263 posts
Feb 01, 2008
5:51 AM
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J-Star.... you are right about the canary seed.
Not too much.... just a little canary seed every now and then is okay. And I do mean just a little.
I mix it in my breeders feed with peas, wheat, red lentils, safflower, rape seed, milo, rice and just a tad bit of flax seed. It's a rather expensive mixture (some ingredients come from a local health food store), but I wholeheartedly feel that my family of rolling pigeons are worth it.
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
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Shadow
28 posts
Feb 02, 2008
12:02 AM
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Good informative Post Deepspin in regards to the wise old sage who said master the feed,and you are almost there. The barley I feed is hulled with approx /12% Protein,/66% Carbs,/Fat 2%/10% Water/and the rest Fiber Content,fed on a 75% diet of this,since November they work their socks off,three flies a week,with approx three weeks before breeding,this diet has got to change,ie different feed for different reasons,but again very enlightening and informative post.
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RUDY..ZUPPPPP
1087 posts
Feb 02, 2008
2:04 AM
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Hey Marcus how about wild bird seed ????
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RUDY PAYEN
PANCHO VILLA LOFT
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DeepSpinLofts
265 posts
Feb 02, 2008
8:05 AM
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Hi Rudy....
Wild bird is cool, but you will need a mixing bowl so you can sort out the sunflower seeds with the shells on them.
Big Rudy.... who you rolling with? The Patriots or Giants? Tomorrow is Super Bowl Sunday and I know you are going to put on a rack of beef on that BBQ grill big homey. (smile)
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
Last Edited by on Feb 02, 2008 9:43 AM
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RUDY..ZUPPPPP
1094 posts
Feb 02, 2008
3:23 PM
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U got it Marcus...Grilling ( BIG )....LOL
I might even call in sick monday.......lol
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RUDY PAYEN
PANCHO VILLA LOFT
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RUDY..ZUPPPPP
1095 posts
Feb 02, 2008
4:32 PM
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Zupppppppppppppppppppp Loco Loft.................
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RUDY PAYEN
PANCHO VILLA LOFT
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Scott Campbell
3 posts
Feb 02, 2008
9:44 PM
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There are times when they should be stiff for vaious reasons, and there are times that I want them stiff.
Such as when I have added a number one birds to build a team,I am more interested in them finding their place in the kit formation than anything at that point.
Plus you can only keep them on point for so long, then it is time to rest and just be pigeons.
Scott
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DeepSpinLofts
267 posts
Feb 03, 2008
3:17 AM
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Greetings Scott...
It's great to hear from you! I truly appreciate your input here on this issue. What you stated makes a lot of sense... it really does. When it comes to feeding, breeding, training & flying these magnificent birds, experience never errs; what alone may err is our judgment. And believe me when I tell you that I've erred on many occassions.
I spend a lot of time observing, studying and evaluating my family of birds in order to better understand their mental/physical behavior not just as the breed known as Birmingham Roller Pigeons.... but as a highly unique member of the species Columbia livia (Rock Dove).
And Scott.... what you said was defintely food for thought!
MEMO: A conversation across the table from a wise man is better than years of study of only books.
{P.S.} Enjoy your Super Bowl Sunday....
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
Last Edited by on Feb 03, 2008 3:17 AM
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DeepSpinLofts
292 posts
Feb 12, 2008
4:34 AM
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I'm trying green lentils to boost the muscularity on my squeakers and vascularity on my young birds. Bought a pound of these legumes yesterday from the health food store and plan to mix it into my:
=======> "Breeders Special Squab Formula".
NOTE: Green lentils provide 4x more fiber than brown rice. They are more digestible than beans, thanks to their low cellulose content. Rich in vitamins B1, B2 and B6, green lentils also contain 3x more calcium than cereal grains and 7x more iron than spinach. Some nutritionists even maintain that eating legumes, including lentils, helps reduce cholesterol in humans.
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
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PR_rollers
511 posts
Feb 12, 2008
12:18 PM
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I came across a piece of information when reading my old Pensom book in an article about feeding.this is what he says.Quote" The pigeon can be got into the loft with some canary seed and white millet mixes. A couple of handfuls of canary seed and millet among their last meal of the day has the effect of making then fly high and close together.In fact,it sends them mad,so much does their vigour increase in every direction.
In winter time we feed mostly small maize or corn and a small portion of dari,occasionally a few peas,and always a handful or two of hemp seed.Hemp seed is certainly good for rollers in the winter months and no roller fancier should be without it.
Now check this out,,,,,>> One grain that is of no earthly use to a roller is barley,which has the effect of making the birds fly too long ,and they develop a wandering flight which prevents them from working as they should. Barley also causes the feathers to become dry and brittle. An important
point about all feed is that it should be hard and dry.
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Ralph....
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Alohazona
400 posts
Feb 12, 2008
4:52 PM
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Marcus,
In my continental line I try to avoid austrian peas,they are inheirantly strong flying rollers,and with peas its up,up,and away,especially if the weather pushes them up there to begin with.When the time is right for performance,its straight milo for 3 days,and then milo/pellets,fly 4th or 5th day.I'm not concerned about there water consumption with the pellets,they will drink what they need and thats fine.Then back to 50/50 wheat-milo along with a hand full of safflower as a maintenance feed.To put weight on them I use a show or race pigeon mix w/added safflower.
When it comes to flax,I have found that the omega-3 benefits are not there unless you grind it.Oil and sprinkle on the grains,and it activates the omegas.Flax has silicon which is very important to healthy pigeons.This is actually simple and thats the way I like to keep it..Aloha,Todd
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Alohazona
401 posts
Feb 12, 2008
4:58 PM
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Tony,
Wow,thats my 400th post at this rate it will take me 6 more years to get that hat,LOL!Save me one Okay?.........Aloha,Todd
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DeepSpinLofts
390 posts
Mar 11, 2008
2:20 AM
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As we embrace the beginning of Spring.... I'm trying out a mixture of wheat, milo, sweet rice and canary seed in order to enhance the young birds natural capabilities.
I'm always scientifically experimenting with the birds feed and honestly believe that a nutritious blend of seeds/grains will improve the birds overall health..... mentally & physically.
NOTE: The goal now is to monitor the young birds aerial activity and closely observe their droppings.
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
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COYOTE33
93 posts
Mar 11, 2008
6:07 AM
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hey! alohazona
Dick use to use a little vech to subsitute the peas, along with the milo wheat and safflower. i believe the vech is in the pea family but lower in protein. you might want to try it. i told gregg in NC who has the continental family and it seems to be working for him.if you can email me i would like to know how you have been sucessful with the family,a couple guys and my self are trying to get a continental network going just to talk continental.
coyote
my email is blazario@pacbell.net
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DeepSpinLofts
391 posts
Mar 11, 2008
10:47 AM
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Basically I have no problem with Canary seed. I think it all comes down to different temperature zones and the rolling pigeons genetic make-up.
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
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DeepSpinLofts
476 posts
Mar 28, 2008
4:46 PM
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I've been experimenting with my birds feeding program and have given them a different mixture of highly nutritious grains practically every day for weeks now. It's unbelievably incredible what the birds are doing in the air with my new feeding system.
I'm mixing and experiminting with red lentils, barley, red milo, canary seed, safflower, rape seed, white millet, red millet, whole wheat, white kafir, popcorn, sweet rice, various types of peas and a little grit on grit days. I put in a little of this and take out a little bit of that and it does wonders for the birds training. Birds trap faster than ever with my system. I'm working with different grains to see how the birds react under stress... sort of like a behaviorial science.
NOTE: My feeding methods goes a step farther than the yo-yo system!
I call my feeding system the ro-gene formula. That's right, the goal is to retroactively stimulate the ro-gene into hyperkinetic energy levels which causes true spinners to spin in the air at the highest velocity of speed possible.
I'll keep everyone updated on my progress with the "ro-gene formula".
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
Last Edited by on Mar 28, 2008 4:53 PM
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birdman
515 posts
Mar 28, 2008
5:13 PM
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That's all good Marcus but I'd rather have 'stable' birds that already have the rolling propensity fixed in their genetic makeup and birds that can be easily managed.
When I hear about all these bells and whistle tricks I can't help but think the birds subjected to such must be stiffs. Don't take it as a negative against you or your birds as it's just my opinion.
Russ
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George R.
435 posts
Mar 28, 2008
5:38 PM
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I Agree Russ...by the way Ms. Daisy (9yr. blk,Mottle) is starting to spin)
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birdman
516 posts
Mar 28, 2008
6:41 PM
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George, that's good to hear. Even after I locked her up I would sometimes see her rolling one or two quick flips when coming down from her perch so I know she still remembers how.
Ms. Daisy? That's a good name for her...lol
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Scott
303 posts
Mar 28, 2008
8:50 PM
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Marcus, it isn't rocket science , there is building for muscle which also means a tad of fat,and then there is conditioning much like an athlete, and like an athlete no bird can stay in top form.
Top form means qaulity, the roll aleady has to be there along with the rest of the package in order to hammer it, they either got it or they don't to begin with.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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DeepSpinLofts
479 posts
Mar 28, 2008
10:55 PM
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Okay now Russ.
I'm not into bells, whistles, feather-feets, muffs, crests, boots, hoods, helmet-heads, fantails or any of that fancy pigeon stuff.
====> Strictly performance here.
I think we are on the same page.
NOTE: It's only those roller pigeon fanciers who have deviated from the path of performance with their show rollers..... and the concept of breeding for color that has been disengaged from the true prize.... which is high velocity aerial spinning.
Here's the problem Russ. Some of us keep thinking that for one reason or another our birds are different.... but in reality many of us have birds stashed in our lofts with similar genetic backgrounds. Sure stability is important to maintain a good family of birds, but it also important to push your birds to the edge just so that you can see what you really have in the air.
We are all coaches and trainers to our kit birds. A good football, basketball, baseball, hockey, track, lacrosse or soccer coach is going to push his players to the edge.... this is how great championships are won. One of the key elements utilized in building a champion (whether it be any sport) is through dietary intake and food supplementation.
Scott said: "it isn't rocket science".
I agree somewhat.
However, this sport of ours is a rather unique blend of bird husbandry and genetic engineering of birds belonging to the family Columidae that are born with ro-genes.
Hmm....
I consider myself a scientist of sorts and love to experiment on just about everything (including my birds). I'll go back to the 50/50 grain mixture in due time... but my goal is to build superior athletic specimens with the physical & genetic traits required to take competition rolling pigeons to the next level.
In closing let me add that these seven lucky words below have always stuck in my mind over the years when it comes to performance bred rolling pigeons:
====> "You control your birds with the feed."
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
Last Edited by on Mar 28, 2008 11:01 PM
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Scott
308 posts
Mar 29, 2008
7:38 AM
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(I'm mixing and experiminting with red lentils, barley, red milo, canary seed, safflower, rape seed, white millet, red millet, whole wheat, white kafir, popcorn, sweet rice, various types of peas)
Marcus , all I see above is extream carbs & fat, what you have above would make my or any birds that I have flown in the past fly highly eratic in flight which would kill the roll.
all we ever need is-
austrian peas- which is the protein and the best pea for pigeons.
Wheat- which is carbs with some protein
milo- carbs,which is a weak airy seed mainly used for filler
salflour- fat/oil
popcorn- fat, needed in colder regions during the cold months, myself I never use it as I don't need it,nor do you where you live,I use salflour in it's place when needed.
millet- trapping seed and can be used for effect in small quanities
Marcus- when I want to build them with muscle above is what you use with the protein as the building block, when I want to condition it is for fairly short periods by backing out the protein and fat, once they hit a particular point though they must be built back up as the quality will deterorate.
With hotter less stable birds though a heavier protein must be used and they must be flown often to keep them built up or they will fall apart.
With stronger families a everyday heavy protien along with heavy fly will put them in a faster flying mode.
For just everyday maintance flying you mix it somewhere inbetween for "your" birds
Just learn the basics of "your" birds, there is no magic formila, what works for them today will reverse on you over a fairly short period of time,the birds condition,weather ect. all play in and must be taken into consideration.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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George R.
442 posts
Mar 29, 2008
7:43 AM
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My kit Birds do good with just Peas, wheat and milo mix at about 13% protien.
during the moult I will add Safflower seed for the oil.
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George R.
443 posts
Mar 29, 2008
7:43 AM
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My kit Birds do good with just Peas, wheat and milo mix at about 13% protien.
during the moult I will add Safflower seed for the oil.
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DeepSpinLofts
485 posts
Mar 29, 2008
5:09 PM
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Sounds great George. I'm sure you have a well engineered kit feeding and trading plan for your flyers.
I've been to your website and your birds look quite healthy. Good job!
It all starts with the handler. How much time he/she spends caring for the birds will determine whether or not there will be success or failure
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
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birdman
518 posts
Mar 29, 2008
5:33 PM
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Marcus,
You have to have the right birds to begin with.
All the handling skills in the world won't mean squat if you start with inferior birds.
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birdman
519 posts
Mar 29, 2008
5:42 PM
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George,
Have you ever tried mixing some wheat germ oil onto the feed and sprinkling some brewers yeast over the mix?
Try it sometime on the breeders, especially during the moult.
Russ
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DeepSpinLofts
486 posts
Mar 29, 2008
7:01 PM
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Click on photo for larger image
You are correct Birdman. Must have the right birds.
Marcus
Last Edited by on Jun 02, 2008 5:43 AM
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DeepSpinLofts
821 posts
Jun 01, 2008
8:49 AM
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....Just a reminder here:
Millet and Rape seed are both good un-stiffeners.
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
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PR_rollers
1106 posts
Jun 01, 2008
10:12 AM
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I use Millet just to get my birds in like one tablespoon,but now they are so train i don't have to use anything once they land in matter of seconds they are trap in..
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Ralph
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DeepSpinLofts
822 posts
Jun 02, 2008
5:41 AM
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Yeah Ralph that's a good way to get them in quick.
I give my kits about the same ration per bird at night and then let'em out early to fly (around 6:45 a.m.) and they spin like pinwheels.
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
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