fhtfire
1218 posts
Feb 02, 2008
10:43 PM
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Ok guys...I need your advice on a possible interview about Rollers and BOP...here is the deal..
A professor at the California Raptor Center at UC Davis wants to talk with me about the BOP issue... being totally anonymous.
He is concerned that there may be an issue with over population in some areas and wants to do a study on BOP and pigeon fanciers....He also feels that our expensive birds should not fall prey if there is truly a problem...and wants to also find a way to help both sides be balanced....and lobby his findings if there is a possible solution to the problem....
He wants to look at rollers and watch them fly...get a true feeling of a roller fancier...I will fly my birds for him and show him my loft...I will show him the meds and vitamins my birds get...the clean loft...and my record keeping..and maybe print up some peds for him to view...I will explain the feeding process...to breeding...training..the comps and what to look for in a good roller....and some prices of what some birds are worth....so he will see the time and energy put into our training and birds.
He also wants to know how many kills that I have had....is different birds of the same birds attacking....do they invade larger BOP territory....He wants to know it all so he can study the situation and be an impartial person on how bad the problem is and some ramifications.....it may be trapping and relocating to some other area...what are the True loss numbers and BOP attacks..and a true estimation on how many hawks are killed...as well as the amount of hawks in certain territories...and if BOP are native to a certain area....
He feels it is time to take a hard look at the BOP issue like they did in the DDT era....anyway...what do you guys think...
I have done numerous interviews....from being a firefighter......I am educated........I speak well.....and I think the questions through before I answer.....I really think that I can handle it....my identity will never be revealed.....I figure I have the computer record keeping program...a pretty nice set up...and my birds have been doing pretty good....and I can show him how many birds I had at the start of the season....and what I have now....the empty kit box and perches..shows it all...anyway..what do you think
rock and ROLL
Paul
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nicksiders
2523 posts
Feb 02, 2008
10:57 PM
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The whole thing is I believe all pigeon breeders has an appreciation of all BOP. What has happened over the last decade or so is thier population has gotten out of control to the point it is beginning to devastate domestic birds and may be have a negative affect on other wild species of birds.
We need to curtail much of the BOP breed and release programs and allow trapping and release programs for the domestic bird breeder.
What is ironic is that I have always had a love for all BOP, but I do not like giving up my domestic birds to them. It has gotten out of hand.
There has to be a balance.
___________________________________________________________
Above all, don't show any anger and no puffing up of the chest; give no altamatums.
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Scott Campbell
9 posts
Feb 02, 2008
10:58 PM
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Paul it is a set up and nothing more.
Scott
Last Edited by on Feb 02, 2008 11:51 PM
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kcfirl
270 posts
Feb 02, 2008
11:10 PM
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Paul,
I advise against it.
Ken
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nicksiders
2526 posts
Feb 02, 2008
11:25 PM
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Somebody someday is going to have to talk to someone about domestic birds and BOP. It is rediculas to expect them to talk for ALL of us; it is just as rediculas to expect everyone to involuntarily zip the lip because we have this perverted fear they are going to say something that will shut all pigeon breeders down.
Quit living under a rock.
Nick Siders
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SiDLoVE
149 posts
Feb 02, 2008
11:28 PM
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Its like asking Mama Bear if its o.k if you can take her baby cub to play. Your intentions are good Paul . But Mama Bear by instinct will protect her cub and the Fed will protect there Bops.. Not much one can do to change it on there side....my view on it...sidLOVe*
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luis
595 posts
Feb 03, 2008
12:47 AM
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Paul these studies can be done without a pigeon fanciers input.Until the balance tips far right nothing will be accomplished.The right people have to admit there's a problem and we are not at that point yet!The professor might have good intentions but i wouldn't waste my time with it.
I also think we can do ourselves a world of good if we just stop feeding the BOPs!
Last Edited by on Feb 03, 2008 12:27 PM
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W@yne
1019 posts
Feb 03, 2008
2:31 AM
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Paul
Our hobby has been in the public eye for all the wrong reasons recently, I am not saying this guy is not a genuine person but is it worth the risk? The risk for our sport getting dragged back through the gutters by non trustworthy people like it has just been.
Although this subject is well known world wide i am thinking of you guys over there i know it really hurt you guys badly.
Just a thought.
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Regards
W@yne UK
Patience Perseverance Perfection
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Last Edited by on Feb 03, 2008 2:42 AM
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Shadow
30 posts
Feb 03, 2008
3:48 AM
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I think you should go with it,you appear to be right man for this job,re set up,if so he will just get some other,maybe wrong sort who is capable of setting sport backwards,whats the point of cloaking facts re B.O.P. presented properly it can only be a positive,admiration for all hawks in the general scheme of nature,- overpopulation is causing problems for all species of birds including pigeons,this would be my slant on it,yeah I think you will do a good job,and hopefully some good comes out of it.
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sundance
430 posts
Feb 03, 2008
5:34 AM
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Paul, I think you are the man for the job. Sooner or later this needs to be done. I`ve been saying for a long time that we need to quit hiding from the public. Heck, that is part of our problem, Nobody out in the real world knows what we do. The general public might be more tollerant if we didnt come across as some secret undercover organization.
Do the interview Paul, ask him questions and for suggestions as well. Show him the passion you have and relay that everyone in the sport feels the same. This could be a really good thing, or it could at least be the start of a good thing.I dont believe anything is going to get better for the sport unless we all are willing to come out of the closet, so to speak...LOL
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Butch @
Sundance Roller Lofts
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Santandercol
1919 posts
Feb 03, 2008
5:53 AM
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Paul,
You have nothing to hide and it's my opinion no harm can be done by talking to this prof.Go for it and please let us know of any outcome.
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Kel.
Rum-30 Lofts
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2141 posts
Feb 03, 2008
6:02 AM
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Hey Paul, it's a NO BRAINER in my estimation! Do the interview. Keep track of the questions he asks you and get a feel for his motivations. If you want it, I can provide you with the data we have been collecting and maybe it provides some insight or maybe not.
The only thing roller fanciers have to fear is sticking their collective heads in the ground and not being aware of or participants in a process that might very well impact the sport (word chosen intentionally).
Hey All, realize that the only reason the sport received a "black eye" was a certain number ignored and violated the law.
Flying rollers in and of itself does not and has never jeopardized a single bop. Its an individual under the kit who chooses to break the law out of ignorance or sheer willful disregard for the consequences.
There is not some juggernaut out to put an end to the roller fancy which is a 100% legal and wholesome pastime, it is law-enforcement trying to do their job, which is stop individual law-breakers from harming or destroying lawfully protected birds.
Do I think that as a result of a study like this, laws will be enacted to allow fanciers at will to trap and relocate or worse? Of course not.
But it will help heal the black eye and publicize the fact that virtually all roller fanciers respect the law and suffer the losses rather than break the law.
Paul, let me know if there is anything I can do to help. Good luck, bud.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
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Missouri-Flyer
1249 posts
Feb 03, 2008
6:22 AM
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Paul,
you said your identity would never be revealed..Well, it has now that you stated that quote on a public forum.
I for one dont think the interview would hurt anything..I dont think it would do any good either..Buddy, if your time allows it, and you are comfortable with answering the questions, then I say: "what do you have to lose"?.
O' yea, dont forget to take him to the "PRIVATE" breeding pen and show him that new HEN that you recently picked up!..He may leave there with a different perspective of the hobby.
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Jerry
Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
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maxspin
169 posts
Feb 03, 2008
7:45 AM
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Paul,
If you decide to do the interview. Make sure that he agrees to your being able to record the interview. Keep an unedited copy for yourself.
Remember that the propaganda machine has been active in favor of BOP for a long time. The general public will not feel any apathy toward us just because we spend a lot of money on our birds.
Keith Maxwell
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gabe454
213 posts
Feb 03, 2008
7:49 AM
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I say got for it!
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454
TRIPLE "G" LOFT
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Sourland
103 posts
Feb 03, 2008
8:20 AM
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Paul, I only know you from this forum. You seem logical, balanced and well spoken. You as an individual have nothing to lose, and we as a sport need a well-spoken advocate. I gave away my birds a year ago because my location is impossible fo fly from. Over 250 birds killed in 4 years of flying. 95% Coopers or Sharpshins 5% falcons, and a couple dumbass tree sitters killed by a redtail. Yeah, I know that makes more than 100%, but you get the picture. Go for it.
Geo.
Last Edited by on Feb 03, 2008 8:20 AM
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fhtfire
1219 posts
Feb 03, 2008
8:32 AM
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Part of me does not want to hide my identity...I have no problem talking about the sport and the hawk problem openly...I really think that us hiding is doing nothing but letting the public..make up whatever they want about pigeons.
The professor is a very Respected person in the BOP field...and is the head of the California Raptor Center. He has a great respect for all birds and totally knew some history about pigeons...according to my buddy....and that he feels that the problem can be handled if someone actually took the time to study the problem....I think he may need another million dollar grant...LOL!! I know a couple falconers and they have even said that the population is out of control is some areas.....
I will for sure record the interview myself....and really think every question through...this professor has the full perspective of BOP and wants the full perspective of a Roller fancier....so that his study will be impartial....
I know that some think it is a trap...but Highly educated professors in and institution as well Known as UC Davis...remember UC Davis...did one of the first studies on why rollers roll..and this professor...according to my buddy is really serious about this...and will be impartial...just remember..if a study is published..it better be very accurate...or holes can be blasted through it...this could lead to lots of positive things for the roller hobby........
What would all the BOP society feel like if one of there own that is very respected....published a study..that proved that BOP were overpopulated in some areas....espcially Coopers Hawks....I just find it funny that I read about BOP...and it talks about how there territories are xyz miles and they are very protective and they need that territory to survive...and then I drive from Wooldand to Davis...a 8mile drive and I counted 15 Coopers sitting on fences and light posts on the way to work...now if you read the literature...that is to many Coopers that close together...no wonder they are hitting everything that moves...they are starving to death....anyway....I think I am going to do it....and I will give this professor a true outlook of the sport....I will have my loft spic and span....he will see my set up....I have babies...so he will see the banding...record keeping....my training schedule for comps...my meds and vitamins....my own feed mix......how and what I vaccinate for....the whole damn thing....Then I will put the team up...and the team has been looking pretty damn good..so he can enjoy the show....
I am going to do it..
rock and ROLL
Paul
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fhtfire
1220 posts
Feb 03, 2008
8:36 AM
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Tony,
I would love to have what you have on the hawk attack records.....especially what I have submitted or anybody else in the area...Thanks for the postive comments...I agree with you..hiding is not helping....nothing can go wrong with letting people know our love for our birds....this is not going to be some quick 20 second news blurp....it will be a full interview and study....Tony...give my e-mail to anybody who you know is cool and request it...to send me some advise or questions that I should ask this Expert if the field of BOP...it seems from my buddy that this will be a real touch feely kind of interveiw...this is a professor for a school of higher learning and this guy will want to know EVERYTHING..about our hobby..so anyway..I will talk with you more about it.
Paul
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fhtfire
1221 posts
Feb 03, 2008
8:40 AM
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Jerry,
That is why you are a cop and I am a firefighter...I am a retard...LOL..that was pretty stupid...but you know what..I have nothing to hide...so that is why I really don't care about my identity being known....Actually..most of my posts about BOP on the site are praying that my Red Tails return so that they chase off the coopers...I would love for this professor to watch the coopers constant assaults on the Red Tails young.....anyway....Oops.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Windjammer Loft
206 posts
Feb 03, 2008
8:52 AM
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Paul....Iam for whatever it takes to get some well needed HELP with this situation. Sounds like YOU might just be the key. It all has to start somewhere,sometime. And it sounds like THIS might be the time and place. Good luck, I have COMPLETE trust in your decision.
Fly High and Roll On
Paul
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Missouri-Flyer
1256 posts
Feb 03, 2008
8:55 AM
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Your funny Paul,
Just had to point out your blooper...haha..If you do the interview, remember the saying K.I.S.S...Keep-It-Simple-Stupid...Not calling ya stupid tho..hehe
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Jerry
Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
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birdman
473 posts
Feb 03, 2008
9:06 AM
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Paul, you asked:
"What would all the BOP society feel like if one of there own that is very respected....published a study..that proved that BOP were overpopulated in some areas....espcially Coopers Hawks...."
I would guess the overall majority response from the BOP society would probably be similar to the Global Warming controversy.
Your professor would probably be marginalized for publishing anything that shed a negative light to the issue, even though supported by facts, then followed by suggestions that funding or grants may be reduced or cut off to the center for such independent thinking.
Just my guess.
Russ
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gabe454
215 posts
Feb 03, 2008
9:09 AM
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Paul you do what you think is right your a grown man and if it helps the hobby thanks for steping up to the plate!
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454
TRIPLE "G" LOFT
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Ballrollers
1025 posts
Feb 03, 2008
9:46 AM
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Paul,
You have a difficult decision to make and I appreciate your openess to coaching on the issue before you make your decision. I am against all interviews with the MEDIA because of their inclination and willingness to distort the facts and to put a negative spin on things. But educating interested individuals in the field of biology about the depth of our problem could be a good thing. You have to be prepared for the possibility that he will share his information with the media, especially if he is trying to make a name for himself, and they will distort he information from your interview for their own purposes, even though it may not be the intention of you or him. But use your gut...rely on your instincts in making your decision. You're an intelligent man.
That said, I would want to know if the interview is a discussion of the conflict between wildlife (BOP) and the public (the roller hobby); or a discussion of Operation High Roller and the NBRC sting. I would strongly recommend against the latter. I would be sure that you do not identify yourself as a representative of the NBRC, and leave their name out of your discussions. Be sure to communicate about the questions that will be discussed, ahead of time, so that you can get your data and facts together ahead of time. I have a wealth of information that I have been accumnulating and it is at your disposal. It varies from inidividual reports of the decline of songbird numbers of roller men, and attacks on songbirds to hawk counts etc. I would also try to bring in the facts in the University of Pennsylvania Pheasant Study which points to accipiter predation as the primary cause of the decline of pheasant populations...and the Auburn University Quail Study which does the same regardng the quail populations. You can Google either and get a wealth of information. I will also e-mail you some information presented by the University of Nebraska Research Group sympathizing with our problem, and presenting alternatives.
So this could be very productive ....or it could backfire......but on the surface, it looks positive from my perspective. Good luck and let me know how I can assist you, my friend.
Cliff
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rtwilliams
8 posts
Feb 03, 2008
10:40 AM
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Go for it, but be prepared. Tony's info is a good start, but also find out what the laws are. Call your local Fish and game and even contact the feds to find out what the laws are. Find out if there is a way for compensation for your losses, or if there is compensation for losses of other types of agricultural animals. Then find out why pigeons are excluded or if they are.
Have numbers of what your pigeons are worth and what that has cost. Good rollers at $100 a piece lossing 10 birds a year is a $1000. 10 diferent lofts doing the same is $10000. That is alot of money for one localized area and should get some attention.
I am curenttly a Park Ranger in Utah and have worked as a fish and game officer. Utah compensates ranchers for the loss of livestock by predators. Find out if your area does the same and if your pigeons qualify? Look into the Yelowstone Wolf reintoduction plan. Ask yourself why so much was done to protect ranchers in the area but why you can not protect your livestock, livelyhood, or hobby.
Also find out if there is a legal way to protect your pigeons? I am not aware of any. However ask the question " If a BOP get's into my Loft, Kills my pigeons what am I supposed to do? How do I get the BOP out with killing it?
Do the INterview but be prepared and be aware of what has been done in the past to protect other agricultural type animals from predators, threatened and endangered or not.
Good Luck
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SiDLoVE
150 posts
Feb 03, 2008
12:23 PM
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Paul say you do the interview and its a amazing interview and everything just goes excellent cause your prepared etc..etc... O.K i think the problem is when there could be more research on it without you. Then they talk to other roller guys who arent prepared and screw everything up you said...Lets say they spill the beans and say stuff they shouldnt . Then the spins begins again . Then were back from the start again . More mess ..more bad media...more anti bop fighting back . etc..etc...my view ...sidLOVe*
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nicksiders
2530 posts
Feb 03, 2008
12:34 PM
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Perverted fear will destroy us. We will not go forward in this hobby as long as there is this perversion.
Paul, talk to them if that is what you would like to do. Be carefull not to br entrapped into saying what you don't want to say. Make it perfectly clear you are not speaking for anyone else and that you represent no one except yourself.
Nick
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Scott Campbell
24 posts
Feb 03, 2008
12:37 PM
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It is a set up and no good will come from it, you can't control the context of the final print.
The last one that tried was the CNN clip
Last Edited by on Feb 03, 2008 12:39 PM
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SiDLoVE
151 posts
Feb 03, 2008
1:03 PM
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Your right on Scott...they control the final script.
Nick i wouldnt say its Fear. Would you dive into a river without knowing its depth ?
Its called doing ur homework and stragedy. Making the right moves is the key to fix this and the key is patience not jumping into this when the story is hot....my view ...sidLOVe*
Last Edited by on Feb 03, 2008 1:13 PM
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rtwilliams
9 posts
Feb 03, 2008
1:35 PM
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Continuation on Preparation
Remember that your pigeon that is know BOP food also has potential value. Example
Your $100 hen can have 5 clutches a year with two offspring. Those offspring our worth $100 dollars a piece. 10 offspring at $100 = $1000. That hen could have produced for 10 years. Then end result is a Loss of $10,000 per Lost Hen plus the potential of each offspring in the same manner in an exponential manner. I have made up these numbers so whatever number you use you need to be able to document.
Is this comparable to Cattle and Sheep Losses with other forms of agriculture. Ask your Dept of agriculture if you can be reimbursed for loss and Dept Of fish and wildlife how this fit with Depredation in your area. And why as a pigeon owner you are not getting compensation.
Good Luck
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kcfirl
271 posts
Feb 03, 2008
2:23 PM
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Guys,
rtWilliams is a guy that knows what's going on here. I have often thought of rancherslosing cattlr or sheep to pred's and how do they go about working with the government to mitigate losses. I think he is on the right track.
The thing is, we need to get organized, just like everyting else there is strength in mumbers. We need to get legit and then organize.
Ken
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Alohabirds
75 posts
Feb 03, 2008
2:44 PM
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Aloha Paul,
Here is my 2 cents, for what it’s worth.
You seem to be an intelligent and levelheaded kind of person who really loves this hobby (sport). Even if you are a little crazy. (What sane person would go running into a burning home that was not theirs!!!) LOL. I think that if you feel that this professor is sincere, GO FOR IT.
I feel that the only way the feds are going to look at our situation objectively is if someone outside of the pigeon fancy and the AR groups does an independent study. It has to start somewhere. We cannot just lock ourselves in our homes, close the shades stick our heads up our a-s and think that everything is going to be alright. Like it or not, if this hobby is to survive with the BOP’S, we are going to have to open up the hobby to outsiders to see what's going on. I think that this study might just be the first SMALL step in the right direction.
Sidlove said “O.K I think the problem is when there could be more research on it without you. Then they talk to other roller guys who arent prepared and screw everything up you said...Lets say they spill the beans and say stuff they shouldnt “
I agree to some extent to what Sidlove said. There will be more studies done if this study shows that there is an imbalance in the BOP population. But are we going to let this opportunity slip by just because we’re afraid of what someone else might say? When is the right time? After we lose another 100 fanciers because they cannot fly their birds?
For all those out there that say don’t do it…. What is your solution, or do you have one?
Again, this is only my opinion. I have nothing to gain from this study because I fly in BOP free air. Actually, I’ll lose if something comes out of this because it will make it easier on you guy/gals in the states to fly and be able to fly the best that you have and not just what's left over.
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Aloha, Dexter
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rtwilliams
10 posts
Feb 03, 2008
3:12 PM
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We need to make the jump from hobbist's to a business. When we think of this as a business and BOP are lost revenue then you can get people to listen. Especially if you document losses in revenue.
If it is a hobby then BOP are part of the hobby with no cost to anybody but the hobbiest.
Besides the loss of birds you have an impact on the agricultal economy. You buy feed, medicine, travel to compete, use motels, resturants, fuel, etc.
BOP incidents cost the whole community money when its approached as a business.
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SiDLoVE
152 posts
Feb 03, 2008
3:21 PM
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This sounds like a good plan to me . Paul add this plan to the interview as part of the solution. ...sidLOVe*
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fhtfire
1224 posts
Feb 03, 2008
3:25 PM
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Here is what I know...this professor..does not need to make a name for himself...it has already been established....he is not looking to better himself....or smack down one group or another...he is an educator and wants to come up with things that could help both sides....He is not looking to interview a bunch of pigeon guys...he just wants an insite of the norm in rollers and the fancier...and I think I may have all the bases covered like I said before.
He is not going to the press and the press will not be involved...he wants to see the damage that is being done to the pigeon fancier...this is what he told my friend..."It is not right that pigeon fanciers are losing the very EXPENSIVE birds to the extent that is being reported." Losing "30-50 birds a year for one fancier shows that there is an obvious problem that needs to be studied and solved".
He wants to find a solution to the problem....his interviewing me ...to me is just to get a feel for how much the roller fancier puts into his birds....the love of the birds....how Rollers are so different then your average pigeon.
Cliff...I will not talk about any clubs and to be honest I am told he just wants to pick my brain about being a fancier....he does not want to talk about the sting...or the killing of raptors...he want to get to the core of the overall issue..and that is why there are so many losses and are there truly maybe....an overpopulation of certain species of raptor that may also be affecting less ubundant Raptors like the Red Tail...
I feel by what my friend has said..that he is truly wanting to find a solution to a problem and does not want to get into the he said she said....he wants facts and that is it..just a feel for the roller fancier....No press...not making a name...just facts..and if his study shows possible solutions he will push it forward and help both side come to a solution...he feels there is a Huge issue for both the raptors and the pigeon fliers....no one bird is better then another....
rock and roll
Paul
Trust me...I have interviewed before and have taken classes on how to talk to the press and the public....so you can't outfox a fox.....I have experience from my job in talking with the press...and interviewing.....
I will not metion anybody and I will not talk about the court case..just about what I know about me and the fact in front of me..
Paul
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PR_rollers
487 posts
Feb 03, 2008
9:08 PM
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Paul ,I think its time something be done and i know you can do this,,your head is right,from all the post i read here that you wrote from the beginning show that you had a good head on your shoulders .. just think before you answer.have it tape so they can't rearrange your words. Rt is on the money with his post.this could go both ways .it can make the Government see all the money involve and start charging us to have birds ,but we can't think of the negative now. we all have to think positive,the Negative is already here so lets all stick together and hope for best. Talk about how alot of business people are involve in this sport,from Doctors to lawyers,Fireman,cops. kids that were in gangs and how they got out because the love of a bird and how it keeps them in there backward .all of this makes a different. so go for it lets us know how it went.
you said that he might ask from everything to >
a true estimation on how many hawks are killed...as well as the amount of hawks in certain territories...and if BOP are native to a certain area....
don't get caught on that one..be careful...you don't want to talk about how many Hawks are kill but how many birds are kill from Rollers to Racing Homers.tipplers..you get the drift..
anyway lets all think positive because that is what you need now.with all our minds together through time and space we have tremendous energy..
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Ralph....
Last Edited by on Feb 03, 2008 9:10 PM
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