Mount Airy Lofts
444 posts
Feb 05, 2008
9:23 AM
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Scott,
You made a comment on the Plona thread about concert performance... here is your qoute:
"LaRon, this statement has always confused me, you don't have to breed these or any birds to break, it is in their nature and it is the stimulation of birds rolling that makes the others go, Pensom himself speaks of it many times,that it the reason they are flown in kits.
The highest quality is always going to be in a kit that is on point where they are fully commiting to the roll, if they are rolling individuly there is a reason for it, put them in a kit of their like and they will break together unless they are unstable or being led by stiffs that are leading the team."
A question for you or any one else who cares to share some light. I am far from an expert but from what I have noticed, explosive huge concert performance is achieved only if bred for. Are you saying that one doesn't need to breed for it, as it is in our birds all ready and should be there regardless?
I may be way off base here, if so let me know. All tho, I would have to disagree. Yes, you are correct that our birds should break. There are breaks and there are monster breaks. From what I have seen, some families are just more prone to shelling out monster breaks than others. It all most seems natural to those birds. You can see it right off the bat in the young teams. My birds really don't start showing any concert performance until they reached a certain age. Even then, they seem to be off in their timing. Yes, I will get a few that would go on a dime when the others go. All tho, most seem to go when they want to and if by chance the others went as well, they will give the FALSE appearance of a team. This has lead me to only stock those that go on the setups. I am starting to believe it is something I need to install in my future stock. If I am correct and do my job in the selection process, I will end up with a family I am proud of. I'm still a ways from that as this is my first real season where all breeders in there were products of my selection out of the air/flown by me.
Concert performance... is there more to it?
Thor
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wishiwon2
38 posts
Feb 05, 2008
1:27 PM
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Thor,
I would like to respond to your comment, eventhough i know you asked it from Scott.
I believe you are correct that some families are more prone to break together than others. That said, I have not seen as many different families or strains as some ppl here. I am positive though that there are some birds that are more or less sensitive to the rest of the kit. In other words they have a responsiveness bred into them. I believe it is a trait we can and ought to select for. It is a difficult trait to identify in individual birds. Are they a follower, a leader or just in the mix. It makes a difference. Just because we see a bird participating in the break may not necessarily mean it has some innate kit sensitivity. If I remeber correctly, Monte commented on this trait often, I have also heard it from Heine.
I also see Scotts point about your team needing to be in proper condition, both mentally and physically to do it consistently together. Also, I believe some families do not work well together as a team. Individuals may either be too seldom in work rate or slightly unstable and roll at fequent intervals that dont match up with the team. I think there is an optimal balance, it is something we should pay attention to and uultimately breed towards.
I wonder if some families lack this "unity" trait and that leads us to want to amplify the individual performer vs. working on building a team which performs in concert. I dunno.
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SiDLoVE
155 posts
Feb 05, 2008
1:53 PM
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Hey wishiwon you nailed it!! Its in the traits.... team performance trait...kitting trait....quality trait...speed trait...etc..etc.when we breed sometimes we take it out or bring it in ? Are we focused on this trait? Or are we still chasing the individual bird that might not have the trait to work in a team but excellent on its own?? Heine Bijker selects for team performace as it shows in his score..3 time w/c champion .. came 2nd a diffrent time ... look at his breaks example>>... 15 ..17...15..14...15..7...14..16...12..18..14 not for individual performance......Family of birds that carry this trait can be easy when pulling out a individual and blend into ur A team . Observation in the air is where u will look for it, .... and being selective on the good traits .....good luck
sidLOVe*
Last Edited by on Feb 06, 2008 1:41 PM
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JMUrbon
342 posts
Feb 05, 2008
4:16 PM
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If I can add a little insite here as to my take on Scotts post. I believe all rollers that come into the roll are stimulated by other rollers rolling. As is the same with kitting. However there is such a thing as harnessing the goods. Like you stated, You need to harness the better traits in your birds to get the best out of them and that is done by process of eleimination IE selective breeding. There are some families out there that will kit like glue from day one and some that will never kit worth a hoot. Same goes with birds breaking together. With breaking together there is more involved in it than just breeding rollers that will roll. There is alot of training and watching the birds along with alot of substitutions until you get what you want. 20 bird kits dont mean any 20 birds. It means 20 birds that work together as a team. I dont like to refer to my comp team as a kit but rather a team. Pick them to be a team and they will perform like a team. JMHO. Joe Urbon
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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RO
147 posts
Feb 05, 2008
5:24 PM
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I agree Joe, great post.
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Ro
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nicksiders
2532 posts
Feb 05, 2008
5:31 PM
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Without a doubt; birds stimulate others to roll. Try putting up one, two, or three birds and watch'em. The next day or even the same day take those same birds and put 'em up with 10 additional birds. I believe you will see a remarkable improvement in not only frequency, but other aspects of performance as well.
Poophead
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Mount Airy Lofts
450 posts
Feb 06, 2008
10:45 AM
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I really appreciate all your input. Did not mean to just address it to only Scott. As it is more an open thought, open to all replies. As that is what I was trying to get at. It is a trait one needs to hone on - well seems to be from what I can see. Huge monster breaks - seem to be more natural to certain families, more so than others. Not saying that those that don't have this natural ability are not capable of doing it, just seems like they have a harder time being in synced.
Kind of like slow butter fly wing beats. Hovering type flying as I like to call it. Some families are just prone to flying super fast, while some tend to fly slow and steady. Watching the difference in flying speed amazes me some times. How natural it seems for some, while others need to be broken way down just to get this out of them... some just don't have it in them.
Observation is key in this hobby. It is just my observation from my experience with my family... all input is great appreciated tho. All ways willing to learn and change my thought process.
Thor
Last Edited by on Feb 06, 2008 12:24 PM
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Scott Campbell
46 posts
Feb 06, 2008
11:55 AM
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Thor, I have flu and feel like dog doo , will respond later
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Scott
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Electric-man
1103 posts
Feb 06, 2008
12:13 PM
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Get well, man! Been great having you back!
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Val
"Site Moderator"
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J_Star
1536 posts
Feb 06, 2008
12:22 PM
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Get your birds with feed to hover like butterfly and you will have explosive concert performance on each turn. Guarantee… Welcome back Scott and nice to see you back…
Jay
Last Edited by on Feb 06, 2008 12:23 PM
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Mount Airy Lofts
454 posts
Feb 06, 2008
12:35 PM
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Jay,
Hmmmm... I think slow flying is more about frequency then monster breaks. As I have seen super fast flying team able to still give monster breaks. While at a finals a few of years back, I witnessed a team that constantly broke. Not much depth but went just about every 15 secs. Constant small groupings going one after another. Scored over 300 points - first time ever seen such a thing. Any who, they seem to just stay in one place and just went, went, and then some more. Very slow movement was noticed from their flying. Seem more to hover than anything else. I don't recall they ever scoring any thing more then 8s. A lot of small mini breaks.
The thing about fast flying teams are that they fly thru a lot of turns. When they do go, they usually go in numbers. Fast flying seems to be associated with super tight kitting?
Thor
P.S. To a fast recovery Scott, no rush on answering:)
Last Edited by on Feb 06, 2008 12:37 PM
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J_Star
1538 posts
Feb 06, 2008
12:45 PM
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Thor,
There is a big difference between activity and performance. Don't you agree!!!
Jay
Last Edited by on Feb 06, 2008 12:46 PM
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Missouri-Flyer
1279 posts
Feb 07, 2008
5:13 AM
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Jay,
Yes there is a HUGE difference..What Thor posted would be activity.. Not much performance, but tons of small time activity.
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Jerry
Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
Last Edited by on Feb 07, 2008 2:49 PM
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Mount Airy Lofts
457 posts
Feb 07, 2008
1:30 PM
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Geez... wizz... I need more of that :) My birds tend to be on the stiff side. Going only on the setups when prepped right. 90 % of the time, they are just flown for my own enjoyment. There are also times when I just let them out to be pigeons. I don't think my birds can ever roll twice a minute with any quality and depth worth a beep. I some times break them down way too low and it shows in their performance. Frequency means little without quality.
Thor
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