Sandy91, SA Region 3
41 posts
Feb 06, 2008
1:08 PM
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Should a kit be penelise twice for the same mistake. What I am trying to say is if a kit breaks and the Quality is poor does it get the break point and get low Quality Factor or does the kit score nothing?
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W@yne
1033 posts
Feb 06, 2008
1:23 PM
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Should a kit be penelise twice for the same mistake. What I am trying to say is if a kit breaks and the Quality is poor does it get the break point and get low Quality Factor or does the kit score nothing?
Sandy it all depends on who is judging the kit. In my opinion that break with birds rolling in poor fashion would score nothing because birds that do not ball up entering and exiting the roll correctly shouldn't be counted this eliminates poor standard birds being flown in any competition and makes the standard higher amongst flyers. Never the less there are judges that scores anything that falls from the sky and this spoils our sport and not a good example to our hobby.
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Regards
W@yne UK
Patience Perseverance Perfection
=====================================
Last Edited by on Feb 06, 2008 1:37 PM
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Sandy91, SA Region 3
43 posts
Feb 06, 2008
1:30 PM
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I agree but what would the Quality diffrence be between two kits that has 20 good Quality rollers each be? Who will you get the highest Quality Factor? How do you detirmine the Quality of these rollers?
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Sandy91, SA Region 3
44 posts
Feb 06, 2008
1:36 PM
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Like you are saying for example one judge will give pionts for every time he see the kit doing nothing but then he will give a poor Quality where a other judge will score only a 5 if 10 are rolling but only 5 rolled good and then also give a poor Quality because the other 5 were fooling around.But I supose it all depends on the judge...
Last Edited by on Feb 06, 2008 1:42 PM
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fhtfire
1227 posts
Feb 06, 2008
1:55 PM
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If I was judging and 5 or birds rolled...not tumbled but rolled and were sloppy..they would get the break....but when it came to the multipliers they would get a low or min...score on quality. The rules say they must roll a min of 10 feet...roll not tumble...now if the birds are tumbling then they will not be counted....The rules say they do not have to be fast...just roll and a min of 10'...quality is what the the multipliers are for.
Anybody worth the weight in shit can tell a roll from a tumble....loose rolling is not tumbling...tumbling looks like a dish rag....Now where in the rules does it say you do not count a bird that is rolling slow...it just says rolling....because what is slow to me...may be fast to someone else....but there is a difference between rolling and tumbling..
If they are rolling sloppy they will get scored if they break together and roll a min of 10'....if they are sloppy...they will get a 1.0...
I AM NOT SAYING TUMBLING>>>ROLLING>>
Now exiting and entering....I have yet to see in the rules where is states that a bird must exit the right way..that would be a ding on Quality....Some are a little tighter...but that is fine..as long as he or she is tight with everyone....with any good judge...the best kit will be at the top...and the worst on the bottom.
rock and ROLL
Paul
To make a short story long....as long as the judge is consistent that is what counts...period...
Last Edited by on Feb 06, 2008 1:57 PM
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Sandy91, SA Region 3
48 posts
Feb 06, 2008
1:59 PM
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Thank you Paul I know I was just looking on opinions. But thank..
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Missouri-Flyer
1278 posts
Feb 07, 2008
4:58 AM
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Excellent Paul,
I have read and re-read the rules, and as you stated, I cant find where it says any different than what you posted.. We, who have been in this hobby for some time know what to look for, and can spot a roll from a tumble in a split second.. If the exit from the spin was not in the same direction that the kit was flying, and was not scored, as long as the other aspects of that birds performance were on, then the judge is not doing his job, and scoring the kit on how the rules state.
A wrong exit from the roll is a scorable performance, but will not help with the quality factor..Those that have judged kits for the W/C or F/F that have not scored such birds, are not following the rules.
Yes, we all know that they have to do it right, but if they do it right as far as the rules state, and not what the judge wants to score in his mind, then they will get the score they deserve.
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Jerry
Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
Last Edited by on Feb 07, 2008 4:59 AM
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Alohabirds
87 posts
Feb 07, 2008
8:43 AM
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Aloha All,
Just wanted to point out that the only difference that was pointed out to me between the WC rules and the NBRC Fall Fly rules are regarding the start of a scoring break:
WC: ""In unison" means that the last bird involved must begin performing within 1/2 second of the first, and that all continue performing together for at least 1/2 second."
NBRC: "No waterfall action should be scored."
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Aloha, Dexter
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W@yne
1037 posts
Feb 07, 2008
8:58 AM
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A bird that exits the roll the wrong way is a fault{Period}
I have had good pigeons that have rolled great but not lasted long here through this major FAULT.
I am not talking WC rules here guys im talking UK rules with good experienced judges that i have had the honour and pleasure to watch observe and learn over years of following flys and being involved with judging and time keeping over here in the UK.
Guys why would you want to fly a bird in a kit with this fault a bird that exit the roll wrong will take longer to get back into the kit and will stand out a mile.
Rules are a guide to competition flying only.
Every judge judges pigeons there way as long as it abides with the rule book then all is well and i think the UK has an excelent selection of judges and very good they are too.
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Regards
W@yne UK
Patience Perseverance Perfection
=====================================
Last Edited by on Feb 07, 2008 11:31 AM
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bman
540 posts
Feb 07, 2008
9:03 AM
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Straight out of the fly rules.
"The judge shall NOT score anything that does not meet his standard for adequate quality and depth or duration of performance."
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Ron
Borderline lofts
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Sandy91, SA Region 3
65 posts
Feb 07, 2008
9:24 AM
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My opinion on my Question is that one judge will give plenty of breaks and a low Quality Factor were a other judge will give a break of 5 if 8 rolls(3 did something wrong) and still give a low Quality Factor. Then you get another judge that scores only Quality breaks and give a good Quality. In other words its what meets the judges standard and most judges are diffrent.
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W@yne
1039 posts
Feb 07, 2008
9:30 AM
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Sandy
You are correct it depends all on the judges standards.
"The judge shall NOT score anything that does not meet his standard for adequate quality and depth or duration of performance
Bman
Exactly
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Regards
W@yne UK
Patience Perseverance Perfection
=====================================
Last Edited by on Feb 07, 2008 11:33 AM
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W@yne
1042 posts
Feb 07, 2008
11:15 PM
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2,284.80 points is a joke and laughing stock to the roller hobby and it seems like every year the scores go higher.
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Regards
W@yne UK
Patience Perseverance Perfection
=====================================
Last Edited by on Feb 08, 2008 4:36 AM
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Scott
7 posts
Feb 08, 2008
6:43 AM
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Paul, never ever should a sloppy "roll" be scored, the rules state that they must meet the judges "standard" the rules in no way shape or form does it tell judges that theymust score culls, yes there is a standard.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Scott
8 posts
Feb 08, 2008
6:47 AM
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Todd, in unison and 1/2 from first bird to last is cutting hairs, either way it is still abused and the loose judges
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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W@yne
1045 posts
Feb 08, 2008
7:41 AM
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Paul, never ever should a sloppy "roll" be scored, the rules state that they must meet the judges "standard" the rules in no way shape or form does it tell judges that they must score culls, yes there is a standard.
Scotty you are correct and the quicker the judges realise this you will see scores get back to normality and enter the real world of Birmingham Roller flying.
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Regards
W@yne UK
Patience Perseverance Perfection
=====================================
Last Edited by on Feb 08, 2008 7:42 AM
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Sandy91, SA Region 3
124 posts
Feb 08, 2008
7:47 AM
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Exactly W@yne..
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fhtfire
1230 posts
Feb 08, 2008
7:56 AM
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Scott...you are right....you don't score culls....and it is up to what the judge sees ..and each judge has his starndards...to me it does not really matter.....If I scored a bird that rolled fast deep and was perfect in every way...a real smoker and popped out facing backwards...I am scoring it...you may not....that is fine.....as long as the judge is consistent throughout the fly....that is what counts...To me...and I have had tight judges and loose judges..as long as the kits are in the right order at the end of the day....that is what counts...I don't care if I get 500pts or 20pts...LOL.
Of course some birds are going to make minor mistakes...I do agree with UK...a birds that comes out backwards most of the time is a FAULT..But a mistake here and there is the bird just being a bird. Will I keep a bird in my kit that is a smoker and turns the wrong way 9 out of 10 times....well...no...It would never reach the stock loft either...
I just read the rules as how I see them...no more and no less...Trust me...there is not rule that can't be interpreted different from one to another...REad a UNION CONTRACT sometime..LOL..being a Fire Officer...I am reading rules and policies all the time....because of disagreements between the Union and our firefighters....and let me tell you...I have that you take a rule and you use it to the best of your ability...and if it is not written in black and white then you are free to set your own standard....like coming out of the roll backwards....where in any print does it say that is a not scorebable....maybe it should???
cut and dry rules are easy...Like...for example...a rule we have at the FD...is not beards.....you would think that it is cut and dry right...WRONG...on firefighter had a huge 5 o clock shaddow and he like that style....the Chief said NO beards...he said that it was not a beard...the hair was not long enough...HUGE battle over what Beard meant...LOL...now the rule has been added....NO BEARD>..MUST BE CLEAN SHAVEN....so maybe the rule needs to be adjusted...to must roll a min of 10' and come out of the roll facing the kit...that is cut and dry....the way the rule reads now is open to what one person thinks is ok or not ok....make sense.
I have also posted about what the human eye can pick up and actually shoot to the brain....it is not very much...your eyes can focus on lots of movement...but to see the exact quality of a 10 bird break is IMPOSSIBLE>....look it up...the human eye can only focus on a couple objects when lots of objects are moving...everything else will be a blur...that is why all those little internet e-mail eye tricks are sent to you...you know..stare at the picture out of focus and your eyes will straighten it up and you will see a picture...but you really have to focus..well that is how our brain works...so if your 10 birds dump...you will only be able to focus on about 2-4 birds to actually tell the exact quality of those birds...the other birds will just be a blur in your brain....
So...I laugh when a judge says that was a 10 bird break and every bird turned the right way...BULLSHIT...you can only focus on a couple objects....anyway...The rules are great rules it is just up to the judges standards on how they judge....but being consistent is the key.
Oh...and 2000 points is a crock of crap.....that is a popcorn kit......
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Sandy91, SA Region 3
126 posts
Feb 08, 2008
8:05 AM
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Very nice comment Paul.....
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Scott
10 posts
Feb 08, 2008
8:14 AM
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Paul,consistancy doesn't mean anything if there is no standard , you might want to start going a little deeper where this breed is concerned, it could only help you.
email me your ph number
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Feb 08, 2008 8:26 AM
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fhtfire
1231 posts
Feb 08, 2008
8:25 AM
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Wayne...
I never said that a sloppy roll should be scored...if the roll is really sloppy then it is tumbling....to me a sloppy roll is a roll where the bird is SUPER SLOW and wings are everywhere and sideways...inverted...just looks like plain crap....I will score slow rollers that ball up and roll....the key is balled up..not a dishrag..
All I said was that rule did not state anything about turning out the wrong way...Trust me Wayne...I know what a good roller looks like...I know what should and should not be scored....
So...let me ask you this...what are the quality multipliers for......would you score a bird that is axle rolling....that is the crappiest quality you can have.....but does it say in the rules that a bird has to roll in an X Y A pattern....I think an axle roller is worse then a bird coming out backwards a time or two...but you would score axles in the break....it is rolling ...hell it could be rolling fast too...get my point...most of the rules are subject to ones beliefs or standard....
To be honest....I have seen video of birds that have rolled and it appears at full speed the bird comes out the wrong way..when the tape was slowed...the bird came out the right way...it just APPEARED to the naked eye that it was the wrong way...remember your eyes are not made for picking up lots of fast moving objects...or we would be Coopers hawks and not people...LOL>...so you may be scoring birds taht are actually coming out the right way..and you eyes are playing tricks on you....It is impossible to be that good...LOL...
Would you score a bird that rolled and then popped out and appeared to be facing forward and then turns away from the kit.....to me it should pop out and head straight for the kit like a well oiled machine....all in one movement...what is the difference...I think it is spitting hairs and I think that people think they have better eyes then they do...again...CONSISTENT IS ALL I CARE ABOUT>>>>
rock and ROLL
Paul
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fhtfire
1232 posts
Feb 08, 2008
8:30 AM
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Scott,
You know me well enough to know that I would rather have a tight judge then a loose judge...When I say consistent...I mean that if I get stuck with a crap judge..as long as he or she gets the kits in the right order...is what I care about...crappy judges make me sick...because the new guys think it is ok to have crap in the air if they are getting scored....
I know that there is more the being consistent and I am not saying that I prefer a crappy judge over a solid judge...I am just saying if I get stuck with crap...at least get the kits in the right order from best to worst....
I do look deep into my birds....damn...I was looking so deep that my wife left..LOL!! Kidding....
rock and ROLL
Paul
You want me to leave my number on your phone...
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Scott
12 posts
Feb 08, 2008
8:56 AM
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Paul, I have a new number 772-2362
Paul , anytime a sloppy cull or a bird that can't come out of the roll correctly is scored than a legit team is robbed.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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W@yne
1046 posts
Feb 08, 2008
9:23 AM
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Paul you said
Wayne...
I never said that a sloppy roll should be scored...if the roll is really sloppy then it is tumbling....to me a sloppy roll is a roll where the bird is SUPER SLOW and wings are everywhere and sideways...inverted...just looks like plain crap....I will score slow rollers that ball up and roll....the key is balled up..not a dishrag
My take on this is that the ABOVE standard shouldn't be scored "PERIOD".
Paul its all about "STANDARDS"
Ive seen flys in the UK that judges would not count an axle roller as a member of a break because an axle roller does not ball up tight enough to be counted. Me myself would judge an axle roller not that i like to see them but the standard has to start somewhere BUT I WOULD KNOCK THE QUALITY DRASTICALLY.
Ok an axle roller can spin and spin fast but it is not a good example of a true Birmingham roller.
What i am trying to say Paul if the judges standards are high then the flyers standards get high too.
If the judges standards are low then the pigeons standards will be lowered
Look at Middlesbrough over in the UK seriously the quality of the birds there at the moment are second to non because lots of good judges come from that area and can help the new guys on the block and teach them the right from the wrong regarding what to look for in a quality roller you only need to ask Chris Robinson an up and coming young guy that the old timers are finding an hard and competitive flyer.
Also Paul i ain't saying that you dont know a good pigeon when you see one because i think your bright enough to know the difference.
Like i said before rules are only a guide.
Its the judges standard that makes the difference.
You said
Would you score a bird that rolled and then popped out and appeared to be facing forward and then turns away from the kit.
Paul the answers to the ABOVE no i wouldn't score A bird if it had any type of flaw at all in its roll.
Paul i know you said you like a tight judge but also said as long as the judges are consistent.
Again i dont agree. This way it will only bring standards lower in the newbies starting off and these kids are our future.
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Regards
W@yne UK
Patience Perseverance Perfection
=====================================
Last Edited by on Feb 08, 2008 10:37 AM
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fhtfire
1235 posts
Feb 08, 2008
11:17 AM
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Uk....I have agreed with you...If I am stuck with a crap judge I want them to be consistent throughout the fly...I am not saying that it is wrong or right.....
As far as the axle roll.....of course it is not the standard of a Birmingham roller....Not a whole lot of birds meet the true standard or we would have everybody winning..LOL...you play the cards in your hand.....I totally agree with you about setting low standards....you Should not set low standards...but again we are talking about the rules..it does not say that you don't score an axle roller...and axle roller is still rolling....and I have seen an axle roller roll fast ...but that is what the quality multiplier is for....if we are judging a break and the bird has poor quality...it does not say that you do not count that bird as part of the break..if we did it that way...then we would not have the quality multiplier....you judge the overall quality of the kit during the 20 min fly....I am just saying what the rules say....I am playing the devils advocate here....The truth is that the rules are not cut and dry...the truth is that nobody is perfect and no kit is perfect...each judge uses his set standard and that is all you can do...as for me....One bird having a bad day is not going to ruin a working team....
It is just hard to put into words what a scoreable roll is and a non scoreable roll....if it rolls it will get scored....if it is clean as a whistle..the quality points will be high...if birds are turning the wrong way etc..the quality points will be a 1.0...
I think people are looking into to much about what I am saying...I am just saying there are a lot of rules that are gray....
We need to define what a scoreable roll is..like...must roll a min of 10' with good speed and quality....the bird must exit the roll clean and facing the kit when it exits the roll...the bird must snap out of the roll with no wing switching, feet extended or tail riding. The roll must be clean from start to finish to be a scoreable bird.
If it stated something in Black and white then we would not be in the argument...a definition should be stated for each area..even quality multipliers....for quality you could say that a high quality kit must have birds that have an A or H pattern, must spin with high velocity and snap from the roll facing the right way on a consistant basis....with no wing switching and tail riding.
For depth....the min depth of a scoreable kit is 10' a kit with excellent depth must have a majority of birds that are consistently rolling in the 20-30' range while maintaining quality and speed....with no decline of speed at the end of the roll....so we defined quality above.
For speed you could say...a Brimingham roller with excellent speed will be a blur showing the hole...a top team of rollers with not show wingswitching and it will be impossible to count the revolutions with the naked eye...a slow roller that rolls to the point that you could count the revolutions is not a bird that is scorable or a bird that is wingswitch....these birds do not meet the definition of speed.
IF each aspect is defined...then the rules will be better to understand...pick up a rule book for any athletic event that you are judging quality and speed ect..like high diving...gymnastics..etc...each move has a definition of what is exceptable...like hand position or sticking a landing for gymnastics....or a tight tuck and minimal splash for high diving...each move is defined on what is acceptable and what is not acceptable...and the STANDARD IS DEFINED>..our standards are not defined on paper...right now our standards are on a case by case basis or whatever you feel is the standard...
rock and ROLL
Paul
Last Edited by on Feb 08, 2008 11:22 AM
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smoke747
789 posts
Feb 08, 2008
11:20 AM
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Scott, in your opinion how do you think I judged your kit for the CA state fly? Was I loose?
smoke747
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Scott
13 posts
Feb 08, 2008
11:38 AM
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I didn't think so keith , I thought you did a good job,you were middle of the road I thought.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Feb 08, 2008 11:39 AM
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W@yne
1047 posts
Feb 08, 2008
11:39 AM
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USA i mean Paul
Thanks for your posts and i do agree the rule book could do with an update. Many of the things we discussed are on the same page.
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Regards
W@yne UK
Patience Perseverance Perfection
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Scott
14 posts
Feb 08, 2008
11:41 AM
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Paul, it is the flyers that need to be educated, the rules are fine.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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smoke747
792 posts
Feb 08, 2008
11:50 AM
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Ok, thanks Scott.
smoke747
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Scott
15 posts
Feb 08, 2008
1:54 PM
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Keith I just wish that you would have kept both eyes on my team instead of keeping one eye on my Geese LOL
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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SiDLoVE
170 posts
Feb 08, 2008
7:59 PM
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If a Champion won the Big Fly he has judging rights. Give the guy a chance and hope the winner will rise to the top ... good luck ..
sidLOVe*
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smoke747
794 posts
Feb 08, 2008
10:28 PM
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No, I was watching for that lil rooster. lol
smoke747
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SiDLoVE
178 posts
Feb 08, 2008
10:31 PM
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Hey Smoke....i dont go to Scotts anymore...dam Geese almost took my hand off trying to pet it ..lmao...
sidLOVe*
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smoke747
797 posts
Feb 08, 2008
10:35 PM
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I learned my lesson about geese when I was a kid.
smoke747
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Scott
19 posts
Feb 09, 2008
9:09 AM
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Oh yea Keith, I forgot about Badass Berney, yea he was a little terror LOL
Robby, I think what would go a long way is a "suggested" standard.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Feb 09, 2008 9:12 AM
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DeepSpinLofts
319 posts
Feb 21, 2008
8:53 AM
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Over the years I've learned that in competitive kits it's not always important on simply how deep your birds are, but how fast they can roll with velocity (spin) in a proper form/style. And the more times your kit birds can roll in unison with proper form/style as a team, the better chance of a comp-flyer actually receiving a good score from judges.
Here's a quote from Joe Houghton's book:
>>>>"To witness a bird execute a classic velocity spin with depth is breathtaking. While at the same time to see a bird whose only claim to fame is depth, is insulting."<<<<
...and
>>>>"Velocity spinning is the single most important factor in the roll! A bird may have everything else, but without velocity of spin in its repertoire it has nothing".<<<<
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
Last Edited by on Feb 21, 2008 5:23 PM
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kcfirl
309 posts
Feb 21, 2008
9:20 AM
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Scott,
I think the rules need to be clarified as to what a minimum scoreable (1.0) quality roll is. to say it is up to the judge is to create the exact problem you always bitch about.
Everyone is differtent with different experiences, and thoughts on what is quality.
I know for a fact we can;t even agree on awhat a min quality roll is, until we do, we will continue to see wide variation in how kits are scored.
Firl
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fhtfire
1254 posts
Feb 21, 2008
9:28 AM
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Amen Ken...Scott..I did not say the rules need to be changed....like ken said...just clarified...
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Missouri-Flyer
1324 posts
Feb 21, 2008
9:43 AM
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I will 3rd that notion. The rules are at present, left to each judges own discretion, and as we all know, some are far better judges than others!
Some are just blinded by their own backyard.
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Jerry
Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
Last Edited by on Feb 21, 2008 9:44 AM
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colinb
14 posts
Feb 21, 2008
12:13 PM
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In England, we dont have multipliers, as such. we score the breaks and there is no split second rule, the birds have to break asif they have hit an imaginary wall,if any bird is a split second behind, these birds are not counted.
we usually have 200 quality which equeals to ten points per bird.
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Ballrollers
1042 posts
Feb 21, 2008
2:07 PM
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Colin,
The NBRC rules also favor "unison " breaks. The dictionary defines unison as instantaneous. The World Cup 1/2 second rule only encourages uninformed or newbie judges (or judges trying to gain favor) to score waterfall breaks.
I agree with Paul. There are too many poorly-defined gray areas, when it comes to scoreable performance, which are left up to the judge's discretion. I disagree with Scott in his basic position to leave it all up to the judge's discretion. That is part of the reason for these 2000 point scores. You cannot leave so much up to the judge's discretion and expect tight scoring. If you want tight scoring, you have to define the standard better.
YITS,
Cliff
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Sandy91, SA Region 3
195 posts
Feb 21, 2008
2:13 PM
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what would be the best sulotion on this topic?
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sippi
61 posts
Feb 21, 2008
2:56 PM
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Is it just me or is the bird on page fifty two of "The Birmingham Roller Pigeon" by W.H.Pensom not coming out backwards? I have wanted to ask this question for a while and this looks like a good place to ask.
Sippi
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Scott
69 posts
Feb 21, 2008
5:18 PM
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Colin, the 1/2 second from FIRST to LAST bird is to score breaks the way you discribed and not to score waterfall.
Who can decern a 1/2 second ? I certainly can't.
Personaly I would like to see it taken out like the NBRC did, but the fact is it doesn't change a thing with poor judges and they still score with no regard to actualy scoreing breaks vrses counting up activity and throwing a number on it as if it was actualy a break, most of the goofy scores come from this.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Scott
70 posts
Feb 21, 2008
5:34 PM
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Cliff, my reasoning on my position is for a purpose, anytime you lock in a standard for qaulity then the entire fly can come into question by someone accusing the judge of not judging by the rules, you just can't lock it in.
A good example is the NBRC rule of in unison, the fact is many of the judges don't pay any attention to "unison" including some of the recent final judges.
They are actualy not scoreing by the rules and it is only a matter of time before a judge is called on it while on the road and the entire fly compromised, but the "judges discretion" rule would trump it, some judges are good quality minded and some aren't , that is just the way it is.
What I would like to see is a suggested standard along the lines of the old 11 bird standard , and something to educate flyers.
My reputation as a judge shows that I don't score gargage,I want them doing it right from start to finish and breaking together ,the fact is many don't like that type of judging, but I couldn't bring myself to lower my standards regarless of what the rules say.
I would love to see every judge score what represents the breed to the highest level, but many just don't see it that way, Cliff, to be honest I'm not sure what the answer is,but one thing that I am sure of is that we are on a slippery road with the way the judging is going and the type of judging many are wanting in this country.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Feb 21, 2008 6:13 PM
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nicksiders
2586 posts
Feb 21, 2008
9:41 PM
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May the best kit win.
The first kit being judged; how important does it become as the day(s) wear on as it relates to your scoring?
Where does your importance lay most heavely: the scorable breaks or the multipliers?
Nick Siders
Last Edited by on Feb 21, 2008 9:42 PM
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Ballrollers
1043 posts
Feb 22, 2008
5:08 AM
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Scott
The fact is the rule should be followed. It is not the rule's fault. We have two sets of rules in the US, from the two major organizations, and untold number of rules used by state/local clubs. All these "different rules" just lead to more confusion and more problems among flyers. If we had but one rule that stated only unison simultaneous breaks should be scored, how could that not eventually help? Every time we change a rule, for better or worse, there is a lag time till the judges figure out how and when to use it properly. In that lag time we see all these crazy scores and people asking questions.
Do you "think" that we want to score waterfall breaks? Absolutely not! But if we want the judges to score instantaneous breaks, we have to say that in the fly rules.
We have a rule that simply confuses this issue. Why do we keep such a rule on the books?
Do we have a rule that states anything about a bird who comes out backwards? NO!
But we do have some judges that score such a bird and we have judges that do not. How do we address this problem? Are they both correct in their interpretations of the rules? I'm afraid so, as they are currently written. Part of the problem is that there are differing opinions, as between you and Paul on this issue, for example. The easy way to address this question is to allow the flyers to vote.
If a bird makes no other errors in its spin but flys away from the kit after the break....Should it count in that break? Y or N.
Address it and be done with it. We all, new guys, old guys and judges must be on the same page for the scores to have credibility.
JMHO
Cliff
Last Edited by on Feb 22, 2008 5:11 AM
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Scott
76 posts
Feb 22, 2008
5:48 AM
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Cliff, I would love to get everyone on the same page, as long as that same page is quality based.
I'm just not sure it is possible, many just seem more interested in "points".
A good example was the 11 bird rules, a few years ago they were watered down with the excuse of helping the "new" guys.what a crock and a solid step backwards.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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kcfirl
311 posts
Feb 22, 2008
6:29 AM
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Scott,
why is it you see the watering down of the 11 bird rules as crock, but on the other hand, don;t want to see a minimum quality standard described in the 20 birds rules.
I don;t get it. You seem to have an exact opposit opinion on the 2.
thanks
Ken
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