DeepSpinLofts
280 posts
Feb 07, 2008
5:55 AM
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This was a Blue Check Beard w/f bred by WH Pensom and later came into the hands of Bob Scott of Southern Calififornia.
NBRC-68-1220 reportedly produced many fine rollers and for many years for Bob.
QUESTION: Anyone out there (especially you southern cali. folks) have anything in your lofts descended down from this particular line of aerodynamic rolling pigeons?
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
Last Edited by on Jul 21, 2008 9:20 AM
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3757
580 posts
Feb 07, 2008
6:17 AM
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Marcus Let me give you some history on 1220. First, it was purchased by Gary Severe as a squeaker after Bill Pensom died. Gary Severe bought 1219 and 1220. Bob did end up with this bird as well as others (ex. Charlie Saldana / Higgins). Bob Scott is the person who put 1220 on the map breeding some awesome pigeons when mated to PRC-64-626 which was bred by Lester Lehmeyer. The 1220 stuff was packed with speed even though it was a product of a total outcross. 1220 had one issue for some (This was after people started jamming them so much 3/4, 7/8) and that is 1220 jammed young were a little long cast and on the thin side. Some have stated that 1220 was weak and I believe this was mostly due to the selection and the high inbreeding of this bird. The 1220 birds had a high percentage of shrinkers and fast pigeons in general when they were bred correctly. There are a myriad of individuals who still have the 1220 line Eddie Scott, Charlie Saldana and many more. Kevin Adams at one point had only 1220 stock with a little NBRC-68-1341
Last Edited by on Feb 07, 2008 6:22 AM
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DeepSpinLofts
281 posts
Feb 07, 2008
7:52 AM
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Good morning 3757...
I've noted that you stated J. Higgins also had NBRC-68-1220 in his possession.
...well anyway
I heard that Jerry discarded some of his pre-80's stock, and began working with a more frequent (competitive) family of Birmingham Rollers. Don't know how much truth there is to all of this, but it's just something I overheard while having some brief discussions with other roller breeders/trainers through the years.
QUESTION: Is NBRC-68-1220 gene-pool still hangin around Jerry's lofts.... or has it too been eliminated?
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
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3757
581 posts
Feb 07, 2008
7:59 AM
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Marcus - I just wanted to give you some history on the 1220 line. There are many others that have this blood very close. If you want to give me a call I would love to speak with you about it. Also, John McDougall purchased the parents to 1220. 1220 was bred by Bill Pensom and was an unproven mating when Bill died. It turned out to be a good one. As for the individual you spoke of you would have to ask him directly.
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warpspeed
6 posts
Feb 07, 2008
8:46 AM
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to answer your question jerry doesnt have any 1220 stuff any more. eddie scott is about the only person that i know still has that line
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nicksiders
2540 posts
Feb 07, 2008
8:59 AM
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Doc,
You never cease to amaze me. I hope the goodness you have this all written down somewhere.....
Nick Siders
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3757
583 posts
Feb 07, 2008
9:22 AM
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Nick - Thanks! I am actually half way complete with my book.
Warspeed - It is true that Eddie Scott has this line and he has some good birds. But there are a lot of people that have the 1220 stuff. Charlie Saldana has it very close, Richard Rangel and many more!
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quickspin
322 posts
Feb 07, 2008
9:31 AM
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I have two birds that I believe are out off that line. One of them is a hen 1/2 Lester Lehmeyer and Higgins and the other one is a cock from Bob Scott Lehmeyer stuff. They produce speed and depth. I have never mated them two because I think they will produce too deep birds, but I will try it this year.
Cock
Hen
1220
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SALAS LOFT
Last Edited by on Feb 11, 2008 4:26 AM
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DeepSpinLofts
282 posts
Feb 07, 2008
10:56 AM
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Hey quickspin.... that top bird looks like a cock that I had here at Deep Spin Lofts.
Shipped him off to a good friend of mines out in Baltimore, Maryland in 2006. A redcheck badge is reportedly off that cock rippin the skies up 30ft-40ft with excellent control.
===> NBRC 1971-2005 Blue Check Whiteside/cock is the bird. Checked my records and yep... that's the one. I just luv those white side & badge checks! Especially the reds & yellows.
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
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quickspin
324 posts
Feb 07, 2008
1:30 PM
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My friend has the two brothers from him I flew one brothers they are blue bar Baldy. They are 40-50 feet fast the parents were purchase from Bob Scott in 1993. This cock is a 2000 but had no band so I put one of mine in case it got away. I bred him to a Guild Ran hen and produce 6 grizzles that should be nice. I'm letting him rest for 1 more month so I can breed him to another hen.
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SALAS LOFT
Last Edited by on Apr 25, 2008 1:11 PM
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hectorvicki2003@yaho
220 posts
Feb 07, 2008
2:35 PM
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Hey Marcus,
My friend Steve Copland,Phill Mandujano, Charly Saldana,and myself still have Bob Scott birds, my last original died 2 weeks ago,he was 17 years old. Many of B,Scott's birds go back to 1220, for me they are some of the fastes rollers ive seen .
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Hector Coya - SGVS
Last Edited by on Feb 07, 2008 2:36 PM
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Mount Airy Lofts
458 posts
Feb 07, 2008
2:39 PM
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That 1220 is a thin looking sucker. Thin but strong. If not for the cutting of the head, that is one very nice photo. Thanks for sharing,
Thor
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Canspinners
95 posts
Feb 07, 2008
3:20 PM
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Yeah I agree as well the 1220 is tall thin and long. Were most of the pensom bred birds this body type?
Last Edited by on Feb 07, 2008 6:34 PM
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DeepSpinLofts
283 posts
Feb 07, 2008
5:06 PM
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Hello Hector
Thanks for the feedback.
How's those San Gabriel Valley Spinners looking for '08?
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
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7001
23 posts
Feb 07, 2008
7:05 PM
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Last Edited by on Feb 07, 2008 7:06 PM
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7001
24 posts
Feb 07, 2008
7:16 PM
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these pics are my 1220 breeders 3 and 4 gen from 1220
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DeepSpinLofts
284 posts
Feb 08, 2008
12:50 AM
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Hi 7001, those are some very interesting pictures. I couldn't help but to notice the feathers on the legs & feet.
QUESTION: Is that from outcrossing, inbreeding or linebreeding?
Just wondering.... that's all.
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
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JMHD
241 posts
Feb 08, 2008
1:50 AM
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Those 1220 birds at Eddie's were very fast and frequent i seen them when i would go to his home. Willie Wright also owned 1220 at one time John M.Loft(HDRC)So.Cal.
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3757
584 posts
Feb 08, 2008
5:47 AM
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Marcus - I will answer for my good friend 7001 as I know he does not care. The 1220 line of birds that 7001 breeds are all real close to 1220 and they are line bred and inbred close depending on the mating. 1220 Stock had grouse and muff in the gene pool as most of the Pensom/Plona/Smith stock. I have a question to ask Marcus. What drove the curiosity regarding 1220?
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Dale
11 posts
Feb 08, 2008
7:57 AM
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Hey 3757, Man I haven't heard that name in a while, Gary Sever. I got my first Rollers from a gentalman named Alex McClain in West Fork AR. I was 18(1984) and Alax got me started in rollers, I've been hooked ever since. I saw an add in the APJ, "rollers for sale", the breeder was Gary Sever, I think he was living in West Helina,Ar. Anyway, Alex traveled all the way down there to pick me up a couple pair.How many folks would travel 300 miles to pick up birds for an 18 year old kid??
Did any one out there know Mr. McClain ? And what ever happened to Gary?
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3757
585 posts
Feb 08, 2008
8:36 AM
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Dale - Gary bought many great birds bred by Bill Pensom after Bill Pensom died when he lived in California. He now raises West of England tumbles and still lives in Arkansas. I hope all is well.
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DeepSpinLofts
285 posts
Feb 08, 2008
10:26 AM
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3757 -- In the fundamental scheme of things, the snapshot of 1220 is one of the rare pictures of a roller pigeon actually bred by WH Pensom floating around on the internet.
...and
Since producing good performing rollers all comes down to selective genetic breeding..., I felt that genealogical research on 1220 descendents would be a great way to better understand genetic engineering of the Birmingham Roller Pigeon.
You follow me?
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
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3757
586 posts
Feb 08, 2008
11:36 AM
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JMHD - I think you are gravely mistaking that Willie Wright owned 1220. He had the blood but never the bird. I visited him often when he lived in Gardena in the 70's and early eighties. If my memory is still correct the bird died at VanCopples place but I am old now and forget a few things no and then.
Marcus - I have some better photo's of some of Bills stock as 1220 was a bit long and thin.
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7001
35 posts
Feb 08, 2008
12:26 PM
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1220 was long and thin,but I remember what Bob Scott said
about 1220, and that was he was balance in every respect
and could produce a better bird than himself. That's because the way he was bred,he can only produce what's
in his bloodline.I know people could pick this apart
but that how Pensom,Smith,Lemyer, and the rest of the
great breeders bred.The muffs come from 1220's mother
side an english import.
Last Edited by on Feb 08, 2008 12:29 PM
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DeepSpinLofts
286 posts
Feb 08, 2008
2:04 PM
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3757... did you say that you have better photo's of Birmingham Rollers bred by WH Pensom? Or are you simply referring to his stock?
No matter what.... it sounds magnificent!
Can we all see those photos???
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
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JMHD
242 posts
Feb 09, 2008
2:25 AM
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Laron im sure he owned the bird he told me himself i will ask Willie who he bought it from. John M.Loft(HDRC)So,Cal.
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3757
587 posts
Feb 09, 2008
5:58 AM
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I know he had a bird directly off of 1220 but let me know and tell Wil I said hello.
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Missouri-Flyer
1290 posts
Feb 09, 2008
6:03 AM
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3757,
Did most of Bills bird have this "1220" same body makeup?
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Jerry
Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
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3757
589 posts
Feb 09, 2008
6:27 AM
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Great question and the answer is some did and some did not. You see Bill had many families within his own family. Most guys only talk about 514 but Bill had other families within the Birds that descended from the ones he shipped here and he broke them into Bellfield, Skidmore or Richards’s stock and some were a combination of the latter names I mentioned. 1220 was an experimental mating as Bill mated NBRC-66-3704 (Out of his nucleus) to AERC-66-997 which was an outcross. If you were to compare the old stock they were a little more long caste than today’s birds. But Bill had some knockouts also (Knockouts in reference to what many consider a great look bird today). When I was younger and visited Frank Lavin often he had a hen that was awesome. Her number was NBRC-67-#65. I am still good friends with Frank and I still say that was the best looking bird Frank had bred by Bill Pensom. Some of the photo’s of her do not do her justice.
Last Edited by on Feb 09, 2008 6:48 AM
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Missouri-Flyer
1291 posts
Feb 09, 2008
7:30 AM
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Thanks,
Again your knowledge is showing!
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Jerry
Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
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3757
592 posts
Feb 09, 2008
9:28 AM
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Thanks Jerry!
John - Did you get the your answer yet?
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Built4Speed
66 posts
Feb 09, 2008
10:11 AM
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Laron, Rich,
It never seems to amaze me the awesome knowledge and history you guys know and have, always interesting post's. Rich hit me up later .
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Dale
SGVS
http://builtforspeedrollerlofts.bravehost.com/
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3757
594 posts
Feb 09, 2008
11:37 AM
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Dale - Thanks a lot! I am on the phone with Rich as I type.
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7001
36 posts
Feb 09, 2008
6:28 PM
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0016 is off of what birds and what family is it off of?
I know 1220 produce many good birds which are in many states.0016 i really don't know of.
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luis
631 posts
Feb 09, 2008
6:52 PM
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LaRon you said you were a Pensom fanatic so i want to ask you a question on a bird that really caught my eye.Blue check Beard hen 64-6055.I wish i had a loftful of birds like these and i was just curious as to the history of this hen.She appears very similar in type to 1220.
Last Edited by on Feb 09, 2008 6:55 PM
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3757
599 posts
Feb 09, 2008
10:25 PM
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Rich - You beat me to it!
Luis - I have something for you which is a perfect example of illegitimacy in open loft breeding. Bill Pensom stated that 6055 and 6056 produced champion spinners. Bill Pensom bred both open and individual pens and it is clear that 6055 and 6056 are illegitimate. Look at the color of 145 and 6007 and you will notice it was a sex link mating. 6055 and 6056 were nest mates and they were both hens. One was blue check and the other red check and this is impossible when the cock is a blue check and the hen is red check. All cocks will be red check with flecking and the hens will be blue. So the real father was most likely a red check cock that had flecking.
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DeepSpinLofts
287 posts
Feb 09, 2008
10:42 PM
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3757.... that's quite a reservoir of roller knowledge you have stored up there in your data banks. I really appreciate the feedback on this issue.
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts.
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hectorvicki2003@yaho
221 posts
Feb 09, 2008
10:45 PM
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Where did 0016 come from? LOL
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Hector Coya - SGVS
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elopez
459 posts
Feb 09, 2008
11:29 PM
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0016 is the new good stuff. George, are you working with some of these birds? I know MadMax might have some from Johnny? Was at Johnny's house today. he's got some nice one's over there.
Warpspeed can give us some info on 0016, 0003 as he has them at his house but don't think 0016 is breeding anymore? i could be wrong? My loft if full of these birds.
George, not sure how 1220 would fit in today's competition birds. All I know is that the 0016 birds fit right in!
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Efren Lopez
SGVS
Last Edited by on Feb 10, 2008 9:45 AM
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JMHD
243 posts
Feb 10, 2008
12:51 AM
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Laron Willie says to tell you hello he said he made a deal with Jerry for 1220 and something came up that Van Copple really wanted the bird Willie said no problem and took a 3/4 cock off 1220 instead but said the was his to take. Laron you comented about NBRC-67-65 hen is she out of sire NBRC-63-3757 and Dam NBRC-64-220 John M.Loft(HDRC)So,Cal.
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DeepSpinLofts
288 posts
Feb 10, 2008
4:53 AM
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Hmm...
A lot of interesting roller stuff here.
...so
It appears that birds descended from #0016 are the PERFORMANCE BRED ROLLERS more qualified to compete in modern kit competition.... in comparison to birds descended from NBRC-68-1220.
Or am I reading this wrong Efren?
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
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3757
600 posts
Feb 10, 2008
6:23 AM
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John - Tell Willie Hello for me. I remember when Willie got the cock and I think the band number was 326 (Blue bar? could be wrong on this number) Actually, the cock that Willie received was a knockout producer. Also, I handled those birds at Franks and the 65 was awesome. I think Richard Espinoza has her stuffed.
Marcus - Thanks!
Also, here is a good take away. Anyone in the 70's, including myself, that had birds off of 1220 or the blood directly from Bob Scott or Charlie will tell you that those 1220 birds produced shrinkers and high velocity birds all day long with consistency and there is no way to compare the 1220 with any bird past or present because a good producer is a good producer no matter what the background. Background is good nostalgia but means nothing if the bird does not do it in the air! Also, one person can do great things with a family and another person can change the direction in a few generations. A great producer is a great producer past and present!
Last Edited by on Feb 10, 2008 6:27 AM
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elopez
478 posts
Feb 10, 2008
9:49 AM
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Marcus,
That is my assumption, Keith had a few 1220 birds a few years back but moved away from them as he began to get better results out of his current line.
Hector has a lot of the 1220 stuff by way of Bob Scott. He also mentioned to me that the birds were top notch in everyway but in Frequency and some were on the hot side and in todays comps frequency is a big factor if you want to compete with the 2000+ points in the WC...
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Efren Lopez
SGVS
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pacos bill
36 posts
Feb 10, 2008
4:24 PM
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THIS BIRD GOT AROUND, DID FRANK LAVIN EVER HAVE OR USE 68-1220 PACOS BILL
Last Edited by on Feb 10, 2008 4:25 PM
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3757
606 posts
Feb 10, 2008
4:42 PM
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Pecos - Frank did not use anything off of 1220. He did have 1233 that was bred by Bill Pensom.
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7001
40 posts
Feb 10, 2008
7:42 PM
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I think 1220 and many other birds that Pensom bred,could compete in today's short spinning rollers that rack up the
points.That's only by selecting the shorter rolling birds that come off the parents and breeding them together.I bet
that if you look way back into these birds that everyone is competeing with you will find some of those great Pensom birds,some people say are gone.Birds,animals,humans
could only produce,give birth to what there DNA makeup is
created.
I apologize if I'm writing or speaking out of term,but I
believe a family of yester years birds are alive and well,
thats because of the bloodline trail still exist.It's unfortunate that some never experince it.
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DeepSpinLofts
289 posts
Feb 11, 2008
3:19 AM
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Efren.... you say that Keith is getting better results out of his current line.
QUESTION: Which line is this?
Heat + Smoke = ?
Holla....
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
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elopez
488 posts
Feb 11, 2008
6:40 PM
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Marcus,
Smoke and Higgins. Nothing but Fire!
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Efren Lopez
SGVS
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elopez
489 posts
Feb 11, 2008
6:51 PM
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7001,
I agree, I'm sure alot of birds today have these birds in their background. But I think it's to a point that these birds are too far back that there contributions to the current birds have been far exceeded.
George's questions asked who would win 0016 or 1220? In my opinion 0016 would win over 1220 hands down.
Just my opinion~!
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Efren Lopez
SGVS
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elopez
490 posts
Feb 11, 2008
6:54 PM
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Actually some of the Smoke birds have 1220 in their background, but way way back. 1220 did it's part in many lofts so he will always be known...
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Efren Lopez
SGVS
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