hectorvicki2003@yaho
223 posts
Feb 11, 2008
7:27 PM
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I think the bird's of the old line if we can call them that,are pretty much the same,back in the old days they where not concerned as much about frequency as they are now,maybe they where focucing on quality and deph.i flew kits of Bob scott 1220-255Redheadeed hen and a few others.i have been able to get the frequency that many havent seen in this family,mainly becouse im using the new feeding methodes with the old line,i think if Bob Scott whould have wanted to get them frequent with the knowledge we have today his birds whould still be hard to beat.
i think its more in the breeder than the birds.Jerry Higgins had the Redheaded hen line and 1220 from Bob Scott in the 70s and was verry succesfull and winning many flys with those, I do think some familys are easyer to get peaking for fly day ,compeard to the 1220 but the old line can still do it.
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Hector Coya - SGVS
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elopez
491 posts
Feb 11, 2008
11:05 PM
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Jerry you can correct me if I'm wrong but I believe Jerry got rid of all of his 1220/Red Headed Hen birds and moved on and got the best he can get from different breeders and made a new family and had a heck of a year in 95/96 were he breed 0016, 0003, 0004, 0023, 0057 and 100(all brother/sisters), 0055, 0025, 0013 and many many others that are exceptional breeders/performers.
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Efren Lopez
SGVS
Last Edited by on Feb 12, 2008 9:21 AM
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3757
608 posts
Feb 12, 2008
6:33 AM
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Hector - Good points. The main thing is Efren you are comparing apples to oranges. Ask yourself this question, what did Bill Pensom breed for? Also, I guarantee Jerry will not tell you his current birds are any faster or roll with better style. So, the only thing that is said is that the new birds are more frequent. Velocity, Style and correct type was Bill Pensom's main focus.
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elopez
493 posts
Feb 12, 2008
10:25 AM
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Good Points LaRon. I’m sure style and velocity has to be hard to improve from the way they were described. From what I've read, Pensom had some Fire!
There are other areas aside from the ones you mentioned that play a key role in today’s comp flying like Kitting. If a bird exceeds in style, velocity but doesn't kit then what good is it in a comp fly? One could consider breeding it but chances are that it will breed a few with the same trait and the ones who don’t show it in the air are still caring that trait. Also breeding percentages play a factor, if a bird can’t breed in a high percentage of offspring like its self or better, then how great is that bird?
I know 1220 can definitely breed as many have birds that trace back to him.
Warpspeed has 0016 so he can give us his input on how he has breed for him. I hear only possitive things about these birds and have some in my loft. Hopefully I can fly them out before the bop gets a hold of them.
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Efren Lopez
SGVS
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elopez
494 posts
Feb 12, 2008
10:26 AM
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Laron,
Are you goig to make it to our show on the 2nd. I know you mentioned you had something to do, but just wanted to see if things changed? Keep in mind the 2nd is on a Sunday not Sat.
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Efren Lopez
SGVS
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3757
609 posts
Feb 12, 2008
10:31 AM
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Efren - Good point also. The only issue that I have is that when we speak velocity and style with the old birds many people state what you said about kitting. They have to kit or they are junk! Kitting ability is a must. The only issue I would say is that the birds are more frequent. Anyway, those are good points.
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elopez
495 posts
Feb 12, 2008
11:38 AM
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Thanks Laron, I also agree frequency is a key element in a performer, but in order to maximize this the team needs to work together because a frequent kit can give you a lot of breaks of 5, 6, 8, 10... but if they're not working together a less frequent team that does work together (10, 15, 18-20 bird breaks) would kill this more frequent team.
This roller game is something that doesn't happen overnight, it's a tough thing to achieve with many variables and the bop doesn’t help much either...
Thanks for the info...
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Efren Lopez
SGVS
Last Edited by on Feb 12, 2008 11:39 AM
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Missouri-Flyer
1297 posts
Feb 12, 2008
4:42 PM
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How frequent were the birds of the past?
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Jerry
Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
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7001
41 posts
Feb 12, 2008
5:28 PM
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I think the birds of the past and the Pensom line today can compete with the birds of today. The point system of yester year was about the 1/4 system,5,10,15,and 20.todays system would even be better because everything counts after
5 birds roll.Hector stated that he got his birds to be frequent with a different feeding,plus with speed and depth
points,everything adds up.That's just my opinion and the thing that really matter is the freindship and the fellowship among us roller brothers,that what counts.
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George R.
142 posts
Feb 12, 2008
6:48 PM
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when I flew the Old pensom Family that I had , they lacked frequency they would have to set up to break.
I would go to guys house like Jerry Higgins and Abel Ibarra and Kieth London then come home and fly my birds and the difference was BIG.
I tried everything to get more frequency and once in a Blue moon I would get some nice frequency BUT that was very RARE.
I had around 3 grand invested in my Family of Old Pensoms , then one day I said I need to make a change if I want to compete with the Birds that are Competing TODAY.
I had a Fire Sale and was able to recoup about 340 dollers out of all the Birds I had from the old Pensom family.
I did keep a kit of the Pensoms so I could Fly in our Club flys and World Cup while I got the new stock going.
In July of 2005 I flew the new family in our club fly and WON easy, as everyone walked out of my drive way headed to the next flyers House it was so silent you could here a needle drop.
I flew in the Fall fly and led with 263.00 untill the last weekend and wound up in 8th place out of 43 flyers.
I was beaten by guys like Kieth London Willie Wright, Tommy Speedster, and other top flyers ETC.
THE PROOF IS IN THE PUDDING!!!!
Last Edited by on Feb 12, 2008 7:12 PM
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hectorvicki2003@yaho
224 posts
Feb 12, 2008
6:50 PM
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I remember going to Bob Scott's house,when his bird's came down i remember him feeding them alot,his kit birds when held where strong and thick,today you visit any big competetor and handle the birds,man ive seen some birds that are borderline sick from the lack of feed .Bob never starved his birds,maybe thats why they wherent frequent?
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Hector Coya - SGVS
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elopez
506 posts
Feb 12, 2008
8:06 PM
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Well said 7001
"the thing that really matter is the freindship and the fellowship among us roller brothers,that what counts"
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Efren Lopez
SGVS
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elopez
507 posts
Feb 12, 2008
8:10 PM
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George,
I'm glad your happy with the new family of rollers you have. It shows how much you really want to compete in this sport by changing your family for a better one.
8th is pretty good in the 9A area. A lot of competition in this area.
How are you doing out in Vegas with your new birds? I see Marlon has somewhat of the same family.
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Efren Lopez
SGVS
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elopez
508 posts
Feb 12, 2008
8:12 PM
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Don't let Hector fool you guys, He gives his birds steroids to make them more frequent. Pretty soon we'll have to disqualify him for this...lol
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Efren Lopez
SGVS
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George R.
143 posts
Feb 12, 2008
8:47 PM
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in 2006 I qualified for the Finals when Las Vegas flew with Utah. then i finished 15th in the Nationals.
2007 World Cup prelims finished 7th with Utah again and beat all the Flyers from Las Vegas.
Then the Fall fly I dq . it got late in the day and I flew next to last and Birds were to hungry they didnt make the Time.
No Big deal I will dust myself off and I will be ready for the World cup prelims.
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elopez
512 posts
Feb 12, 2008
9:23 PM
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Thats right George, keep um flying. Good luck this year.
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Efren Lopez
SGVS
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DeepSpinLofts
293 posts
Feb 12, 2008
10:58 PM
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Efren... you stated at the top of this page these words here below:
====> "George's questions asked who would win 0016 or 1220? In my opinion 0016 would win over 1220 hands down."
QUESTION: Who's working with the 0016 line of birds and how's it doing for them?
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
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ICEMAN710
116 posts
Feb 13, 2008
12:18 AM
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everyone and their mother in socal marcus :) Im sure someone who is working with them here can answer that for you.
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Gary
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DeepSpinLofts
294 posts
Feb 13, 2008
5:07 AM
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Iceman... good morning.
Do you have any idea whether or not the 0016 line of birds will cross efficiently into the Plona & McCully families of rolling pigeons with a considerable amount of success?
Keep in mind that increasing frequency is the key goal here.
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
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elopez
519 posts
Feb 13, 2008
10:19 AM
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Marcus,
Jerry Higgins Breed 0016, he has this family, Abel Ibarra, Keith London, Johnny Smith, Jack Meyers and many others are working with this family.
The Smoke birds bring a lot of frequency and speed.
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Efren Lopez
SGVS
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DeepSpinLofts
295 posts
Feb 13, 2008
11:44 AM
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Thanks Efren for the info.
Smoke + Heat = W/C top bidding, possibly ehh...
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
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3757
611 posts
Feb 13, 2008
12:09 PM
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Efren - I just read your question to me and I will bring a bird (Auction) to your house for the show if it is alright. Also, does 016 have any Houghton blood? The Houghton stock, I am almost certain, had at one time 7600 blood, Bruce Cooper, Elmer Davis and Bill Pensom. 7600 was bred by Bob Scott. Most of the birds today go back to the same old birds but this is never mentioned and the young guys do not have a clue as to what the birds really are off of because the breeders only want their names mentioned. All of these pigeons go back to only a few birds in history and it really does not matter as long as the birds do what you want them to do. If you like fast high velocity and could care less about rolling in unison or if you want to score 2000 points and win the world cup it really does not matter because there is no right or wrong.
Hector, I hope you do not get rid of your old Bob Scott line.
Last Edited by on Feb 14, 2008 1:01 AM
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elopez
521 posts
Feb 13, 2008
10:57 PM
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Hey Laron,
No problem, thanks for the donation. Let me know when you are thinking of stopping by. If you’re not doing anything this Saturday we will be meeting at the show location around 10am to discuss the show, all of but Derik will be there. We can bird out for a bit if you have time...
I know that Jerry mentioned that he did get a few pairs from Houghton so 0016 might go back to them? but only Jerry will know for sure. I'll post a pedigree with 0016 on it. Maybe you'll see some familiar #'s
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Efren Lopez
SGVS
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elopez
528 posts
Feb 13, 2008
11:38 PM
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Here are the pedigrees:
0016 and 0003 are full brothers.
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Efren Lopez
SGVS
Last Edited by on Feb 13, 2008 11:46 PM
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3757
612 posts
Feb 14, 2008
1:05 AM
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Efren - I will call you tomorrow. No, I have never seen these before as I am unfamiliar with this strain but thanks for sharing. I hope all is well.
Last Edited by on Feb 14, 2008 2:10 AM
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DeepSpinLofts
296 posts
Feb 14, 2008
4:47 AM
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Good morning Efren...,
I've studied the pedigrees thoroughly and noticed that #0016 was a red with white flights bred by Jerry Higgins in 1995.
When I look at the photos of rolling pigeons at the ICRC shows, I have observed several red mottles (some of them with lot's of white in their plumage).
QUESTION: Being how these birds are more than likely from the Southern California area, what's the odds of those red mottles, spangles and splashes being a direct descendant of Higgins #0016 Red/White-Flights?
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
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elopez
529 posts
Feb 14, 2008
2:12 PM
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Hey Marcus,
Not sure Keith would know best. Was this the 06 show?
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Efren Lopez
SGVS
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DeepSpinLofts
297 posts
Feb 14, 2008
5:34 PM
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Efren... the ICRC show was a few years ago at the Pigeon Connection on 83rd and South Western.
I think it was either the 2005 or 2006 show because I was staying at the Marriot Villas in Newport Beach on a time-share vacation at the time.
Met Terry Duncan in Long Beach and together we drove to the ICRC show where I ran into Juan Navarro.
Yeah... that's a great idea. Let Keith break it down to me. He knows a lot about the birds origination in the southern california region.... as a matter of fact.... so does Juan Navarro.
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
Last Edited by on Feb 14, 2008 7:08 PM
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crystalpalace
298 posts
Feb 15, 2008
10:37 AM
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I traveled down to L.A. with Jack Myers and Ken Billings in the nineteen eightees. We visited lot of roller breeders including Bob Scott. His loft was very long and big with pop-out fly pens. Bob had lot of breeders in his garage in individual cages. It was very interesting to observe his breeding stock of great competition rollers. Bob released large kits for us to watch and we had the priveledge to see self whites in flight. A blue bar hen from Bob was mated to one of my red check cocks and they shelled out very good stock. This is one of my roller families that has done good in competition. My old friend 7001 and Hector Ortiz are telling the truth about the the original breeding stock. If a breeder is well experienced they can get the same frequency that others are getting today. I have several hi-velosity roller families that are very frequent if they are trained properly. As ever, Ray Sanchez.
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elopez
533 posts
Feb 15, 2008
12:11 PM
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Hey Ray,
Jack was telling me the same story. That you just had to worry about his dog getting loose.
Here is a copy of an e-mail I recieved by Jerry Higgins. Just thought it might answer some questions:
From: Jerry Higgins
Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2008 2:34 PM
To: Efren Lopez
Subject: RE:
Efren, I had 1220 for many years.....those birds can not hold a candle to this new family....Jerry
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Efren Lopez
SGVS
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3757
616 posts
Feb 15, 2008
1:06 PM
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Efren - Thanks for that e-mail. I know Bob and Eldon are turning over in their graves right now.
Last Edited by on Feb 15, 2008 1:13 PM
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elopez
534 posts
Feb 15, 2008
2:28 PM
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LOL.
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Efren Lopez
SGVS
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hectorvicki2003@yaho
225 posts
Feb 15, 2008
3:59 PM
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Funny thing is no one knows where this new family goes to beond 1993 ?
I dont think it's fair to compare the two when back then none talked about frequency like they do now. besides Bob Scott is nolonger with us to take a challenge and put up a frequent kit like i know he could have.
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Hector Coya - SGVS
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George R.
155 posts
Feb 15, 2008
5:36 PM
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There you go Efren , you got it right from the MASTER flyer, Breeder, and HAll OF FAMER himself.
If Jerry says 1220 couldnt hold a candle I believe IT.
lets get one thing clear , it dont mean anyones Birds are no good BUT it might clear up why a lot of folks dont compete with those type of Birds.
Last Edited by on Feb 15, 2008 5:37 PM
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3757
618 posts
Feb 16, 2008
4:17 AM
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This is illogical thinking and the newbie reads this caca la vaca and believes it.
Newbie - This type of illogical thinking is why I stay away and always have and always will. When Bill Pensom died individuals started trying to be better than him and stating that their strains are improved in the spin etc. I notice that they never will say my old birds were slower in the spin than my new family or my old family had horrible style because that is caca la vaca. I guess all of a sudden they got religion and bam here is the new stuff. Where did this new stuff come from? A champion then is a champion today. The focus is on frequency for points and if that is what you want that is fine but do not tell me that your way is the highways if you believe that you might as well believe that caca does not stink. Is this saying that the largest club in America dictates what competition is and if you only fly in your clubs like SBRC, PRC or all of the other local or private clubs you have crap? Illogical!!!!. Newbie’s people want to bash Bill Pensom because they want to be Bill but they never will. Like Ezeedad said in a post a while back you can be a follower but there is only one Bill. They probably trash Bill to their cult followers. It is a cult because if you think differently or do not compete as to what they dictate competition is, if you do not hang out with them, stay to yourself or if someone is a backyard fancier you are nothing. It is the same attitude I see towards people who are different, people who live in the inner city, backwoods Cajuns or anyone who is not in the quote main stream. What is main stream in rollers? Think about what is said. Illogical and nonsense! Stay away from illogical nonsense because it is all around you! Remember, people rather believe a lie than the truth! Also remember, they are saying if you do not do what they do you are nothing. That is it in a nutshell!
I have a good friend from the SGVS and we had a wonderful conversation last week about a bird that he was flying and said that he never seen a bird that fast. He told me that he could not believe what he saw but when he saw that he was changed. I guarantee that the illogical thinkers are going to tell him he did not see anything.
P.S - If you guys get a chance watch the old film Southern Comfort. A great movie on how to different groups come together in the end. It is an old flick.
Last Edited by on Feb 16, 2008 4:30 AM
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GREED FOR SPEED LOFT
432 posts
Feb 16, 2008
7:17 AM
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LARON-3757,, WOW ,put it out there, said STRAIGHT and KEEPING IT REAL this time....Tunnel vision will always be around.
Crystalpalace well said ,,two great post guys. You can HAVE CALIBRE with FREQUENCY if you know how to breed for it.
R-LUNA
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George R.
157 posts
Feb 16, 2008
7:25 AM
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Laron
Are you sure most people Focus on frequency ? Most of the guys I know FOCUS on Frequency, Depth, kitting,Velocity,
and quality.
In order to form a nice team those are the things that are NEEDED . I have never seen a person just focus on frequency and have any SUCCESS.
Last Edited by on Feb 16, 2008 7:26 AM
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3757
619 posts
Feb 16, 2008
7:58 AM
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George - You answered your own question as you put frequency first as I stated. Velocity and style is first in my book and I know Richards book and many more including the man that started the NBRC Bill Pensom. In regards to success that is ambiguous because again you are measuring success by using one clubs criteria. Does that club dictate everything in the roller world? If you believe that the largest club in America dictates what is right and wrong than I have nothing more to say because that is very gullible. Many individuals on this post have put frequency first. That’s cool but do not think that your way is Godsend and neither is mine.
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George R.
162 posts
Feb 16, 2008
8:04 AM
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I am still waiting for someone or some Club to make a Fly where myself and others can enter our Birds and see where they stand under a Different set of RULES.
I am confident that a BIRD bred by someone that focuses on the whole package can and will hold its own regardless of the RULES.
We can keep going back and forth till the Cows come Home but what we really need is a Fly so we can let The RUBBER hit the Road.
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Scott
24 posts
Feb 16, 2008
8:24 AM
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Style and speed should always be the first criteria, but they better not be stiffs either, if they aren't capable of doing it once a minute then they are culls all the same
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Feb 16, 2008 10:20 AM
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3757
620 posts
Feb 16, 2008
8:32 AM
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I guess you must be reading something else because no where will you find the Professor stated that competition birds cannot hold their own. That is the great fallacy that was created to start controversy. But, I did state that some people focus on different things and some have different standards. There is nothing wrong with that at all. It would be boring if we all had the exact same ideas. Did you ever attend the California classic? You are not going to see every kit in the world and neither will I. The attitudes today are 2000 points and if you cannot show me that get lost. Today, individuals cannot have an intelligent conversation without acting like kids who want to fight (Nothing personnel but this is the general attitude).
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CSRA
1376 posts
Feb 16, 2008
8:53 AM
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George you are correct Laron you are correct the problem is they are two different types of ideals out there they are both performing pigeons two different concepts Ind. comp and Kit comp you guys listen and listen well as long as you run them together you will always hit the wall u guys better have some hard heads until you understand that u will always come up short on you guys understanding i think with kit comp you have alot of supporters the Ind. comp is lacking the support it needs to grow someone needs to step up and make somethings happen for the Ind. comp. i can talk because i fly kit comp. and Ind. comp. i am hoping the Ind. will grow so we can have a choice on what type of comp. we want to fly PLEASE REMEMBER THE BIRMINGHAM ROLLER IS A MULTIDIMENSIONAL BIRD YOU CAN EXTRACT WHAT EVER YOU WANT OUT OF THE BIRD YOU DESIRE THEY ARE ALL ENJOYABLE!
Last Edited by on Feb 16, 2008 9:14 AM
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Scott
27 posts
Feb 16, 2008
9:01 AM
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Laron , there is no such thing as a true 2000 point kit, it is physicaly impossible, and any kit that someone even think they saw do it would be one ugly mess.
Most are realistic to such scores and don't take them serious and take them with a grain of salt
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Feb 16, 2008 9:03 AM
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CSRA
1377 posts
Feb 16, 2008
9:04 AM
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THAT WAS GOOD LARON GOOD JOB
Last Edited by on Feb 16, 2008 9:04 AM
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CSRA
1378 posts
Feb 16, 2008
9:06 AM
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SCOTT WHY DO YOU THINK THERES IS NOT A 2000 PT. KIT KEEP IN MIND JUST ASKING
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3757
621 posts
Feb 16, 2008
9:21 AM
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Steve - That was a great post!!! The individual performing roller has been dwindling ever since the 1920's and it will never get back to those prior days. I believe in it and will do this until the Lord comes back. However, I will not say that the others are wrong but what I breed for and what they breed for is different and that is alright. Bill always tried to talk about both aspects and that is why he brought over the competition badges and was kicked out of his own club for doing so. He stood up for what he believed in and so do I. I know you know what a spinner is because you have seen it but some have the idea that when you are speaking of the individual champion you are down playing kit competition which is not true. You are so right on the money of this bird being a multi dimensional pigeon and all aspects should be welcome and discussed. I have an uncle who loves heavier women but that does not float my boat. There is someone for everyone!
Richard - When you and Arnold Jackson judged the CPRC using our 30 point system how many birds spun 21 or above? I did not attend this event but I know you judged it.
Scott - I am just going by some of the things I read and heard but thanks for the advise.
Thanks Steve!!!!!
Last Edited by on Feb 16, 2008 9:28 AM
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CSRA
1379 posts
Feb 16, 2008
9:26 AM
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Laron good job i agree with you thats what i am talking understanding each others ideals also i understand what your goal is and thats is wonderful keep up the great work
Last Edited by on Feb 16, 2008 9:27 AM
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Scott
28 posts
Feb 16, 2008
9:39 AM
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Steve, it is pysicaly impossible, once a bird starts doing much more than once a minute the wheels start falling off and they start fighting the roll instead of commiting to the roll, once they hit this point they quit working as a team also.
The problem is some judges score anything and everything ,the good the bad and the ugly,short,no timing ect.
I see it as any bird that doesn't have the "capability" of commiting to the roll flawlessly from start to finish as being a cull, and I refuse to score culls.
Keep in mind even good birds will roll like culls at times, they aren't machines, but that doesn't mean they score
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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GREED FOR SPEED LOFT
433 posts
Feb 16, 2008
9:44 AM
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Laron,,included in judging was Art Martinez.Well in that fly there had to be a winner but at a ,I think 13 score.
The scoring does describe the qualities of the birds.
R-LUNA
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CSRA
1380 posts
Feb 16, 2008
9:45 AM
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Scott Good response i respect you opinion what was the most frequent kit you ever saw and what was the final score and what birds do you work with as far as lineage?
Last Edited by on Feb 16, 2008 9:46 AM
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