CSRA
1381 posts
Feb 16, 2008
9:47 AM
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Big Rich 13 wow i remember the fly i heard it was one of those days lol to be respectable would a 20 be good and is 23 considered a spinner?
Last Edited by on Feb 16, 2008 9:49 AM
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Scott
29 posts
Feb 16, 2008
10:13 AM
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Steve, that is kind of a loaded question, I look at it more like work rate, to me frequency is just a bunch of birds rolling, frequency is a quality and work rate killer.
As for your question, the most frequent kit has been in my own backyard after screwing them up and over amped them.
On that same thought,some of the ugliest kits that I have witnessed were in my own backyard, and the best that I have seen were in my own backyard.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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kcfirl
297 posts
Feb 16, 2008
10:20 AM
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I think that when Scott says a 2,00 point kit is not possible, he really means he has never seen a kit that he thought could do it.
Scott please review this train of thought below and tell me why you think this is not possible?
I think a kit can be 2000 points and here's how:
30 breaks in 20 minutes - that's once every 45 seconds.
10 breaks of 8 birds = 80 pts
10 breaks of 12 birds = 240 pts
10 breaks of 16 birds = 480 pts
Total raw points of 800.
Multipliers of 1.6 x 1.6 = 2,048 pts.
Please tell me why you think this is not possible.
I agree that we need a more clearly defined system of awarding multipliers.
I don't agree that I should close my mind to the possibility that such a kit as the one I described above can't exist. I know that if I had 20 clones of my best bird in my kit today, I myself would have such a kit.
Regards,
Ken
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Scott
30 posts
Feb 16, 2008
10:25 AM
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Only in your world buddy LOL , personaly if I had a super fly and some judge made such a mockery out of it I would be PISSED !!!!
Like I said, impossible
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Feb 16, 2008 10:29 AM
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kcfirl
299 posts
Feb 16, 2008
11:13 AM
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I see, so you can't tell me why a kit couldn;t be assembled to achieve the score with the bid turns I'm talking about.
so, you just haven't seen a kit of 20 of the best! LOL
You need to get out more buddy!
Heh, heh.
firl
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CSRA
1382 posts
Feb 16, 2008
11:18 AM
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Scott whats the lineage on your family and what was the highest score you have seen in kit comp.?
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Scott
34 posts
Feb 16, 2008
12:39 PM
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Steve, I honestly don't pay any attention to scores, they just don't mean anything.
But there are particular judges that I can get a good idea of what the kit looked like by the score and the multipliers.
Other judges it is just completly meaningless as they judge by no standards so you just don't have a clue.
As for my birds , they are loaded with 272 if you want to go back up the line , in other words Sparks/Mc Cully via Kenny Billings, my family hones in around a few key birds that that gave me what I was looking for in decent percentages,and my best producers were bred out of these few key birds (I went through many stock chumps to find a couple of good ones).
I developed two seperate lines out of these few birds that has moved me forward for the most part, pedigree played no part within my family or breeding, they were tight from the get go which made it much easier,
I completly shut it out (pedigree) as meaningless (which it is) and follow what the birds show me, I refuse to breed out of the nest or off of the floor as see it as a road to nowhere , my best come out of my best ,but of coarse there is a little more to it than that also.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Feb 16, 2008 12:42 PM
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SiDLoVE
182 posts
Feb 16, 2008
1:07 PM
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Firl,
I like the way you see things.Most likely if you focus on your vision youll accomplish it one day .Without a vision you got no target to shoot at! I think we gotta work towards big breaks to see them high scores. till then with bunch of 5's it isnt gonna do it. Roe had 53 breaks when he won world cup. In ur system u posted every 45 seconds. Thats very possible. good luck
sidLOVe*
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CSRA
1383 posts
Feb 16, 2008
1:29 PM
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Scott i can respect that good job ther are so many different approaches to get where u wanna go the key is can you respect the other guys approach if he is having just as much success or more than the next guy
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Scott
35 posts
Feb 16, 2008
1:44 PM
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Steve, there is no other approach, it is pretty cut and dry.
I refuse to waste my time and perch space collecting families, pedigrees,showing ,ect. nor do I have "projects".
I'm a flyer and nothing eles,all I do where these birds are concerned evolves around breeding and flying for performance.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Feb 16, 2008 2:09 PM
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CSRA
1384 posts
Feb 16, 2008
2:28 PM
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will you be at the march 2nd show it would be a pleasure to talk to you
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DeepSpinLofts
300 posts
Feb 16, 2008
4:22 PM
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Here's a quote from George R. who said this a few days ago on February 12th around 7:00 a.m.
>>>>>"when I flew the Old pensom Family that I had , they lacked frequency they would have to set up to break.
I would go to guys house like Jerry Higgins and Abel Ibarra and Kieth London then come home and fly my birds and the difference was BIG.
I tried everything to get more frequency and once in a Blue moon I would get some nice frequency BUT that was very RARE.
I had around 3 grand invested in my Family of Old Pensoms , then one day I said I need to make a change if I want to compete with the Birds that are Competing TODAY.
I had a Fire Sale and was able to recoup about 340 dollers out of all the Birds I had from the old Pensom family.
I did keep a kit of the Pensoms so I could Fly in our Club flys and World Cup while I got the new stock going.
In July of 2005 I flew the new family in our club fly and WON easy, as everyone walked out of my drive way headed to the next flyers House it was so silent you could here a needle drop.
I flew in the Fall fly and led with 263.00 untill the last weekend and wound up in 8th place out of 43 flyers.
I was beaten by guys like Kieth London Willie Wright, Tommy Speedster, and other top flyers ETC."<<<<<
QUESTION: Is there not much use with the old family of Pensoms if a flyer desires to compete in a W/C fly which requires frequency to remain competitive?
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
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George R.
163 posts
Feb 16, 2008
4:34 PM
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Marcus
Like everything else there is good and bad. The Old school pensoms have a HELL of HOMING instinct they hardly get lost(rare).
If you wanto sit around and down some brews next to the Bar B que then a kit or two of Pensoms is all you need.
But if you want to go against the BEST in the WORLD you better have the FIRE POWER my friend !
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3757
622 posts
Feb 16, 2008
4:44 PM
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Marcus - We have been through this round earlier. The guy that won the world cup three times got his stock from Bruce Cooper and his stock was pure Pensom birds. Even the 266 (Plona) bird that he used was not an outcross due to 4904 (Plona) and others that was behind Bruce's stock already. I talk to Bruce often and he is a tremendous man. He even wrote an article in 2000 (NBRC 2000 tribute to Monty) as to where Monty's stock originated. The Don Ouellette birds are Pensom based and many more who truly tell you what is behind their birds. It is no secret that Pensom birds since the 1930's have been the dominate birds here in America. I am not downplaying anyone who keeps other strains but look at the California classic winners and many of the world cup winners and you will see that these birds are Pensom based. When you say Houghton (Pensom based) Niebel (Pensom based) and all of the others who do not want to disclose where their birds originated from and want their names in the light are Pensom based. Ask Richard Espinosa about the Jaconette birds and you will see where they came from (Pensom based) It is no secret but people would rather believe a lie than the truth. The Pensom birds are still dominating whether it is kit competition or individual! This stock that was sent over here by Bill had the engine and their descendents are still running strong!!! Now, that is the truth of the entire matter regarding the birds that are here in America that are competing today both kit and individual!!!!!
Last Edited by on Feb 16, 2008 4:50 PM
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Scott
36 posts
Feb 16, 2008
4:51 PM
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The fact is many old Pensom lines have done extremly well in the major flys,of coarse they are bred strictly for performance and not how times 514 are on the pedigree.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Feb 16, 2008 4:53 PM
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Scott
37 posts
Feb 16, 2008
4:54 PM
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Exactly LaRon
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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George R.
164 posts
Feb 16, 2008
5:00 PM
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Marcus
Yes all the Birds we have talked about came from the imports that Pensom brought with him and or sent from overseas.
But the BIG difference is the way they were CULTIVATED by different Fanciers.
Some choose too CULTIVATE Birds that Break 1 Time in 5 minutes but the Birds roll extra DEEP with nice quality. But you have to starve them down to beaks and nails to keep them in eyesight.
Some choose Birds that Break once a Minute with less depth and the same velocity and that need more Feed because there metabolism is higher due to the rate that they work (Frequency).
So after years of Breeding for the traits they wanted the Birds were different becuase they were CULTIVATED different.
So its your choice what kind of birds you like.
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kcfirl
301 posts
Feb 16, 2008
5:04 PM
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I find this a humerous discussion. The new school hot birds all came from Pensom stock!
With the exception of a few english imports here and there, and perhaps some stray fireballs or Whittinghams, all the birds flying are out of PEnsom stock.
It's just that some guys have prioritized frequency above other attributes (like R JAconnette) in their breeding and the scores show the results of the progeny.
Regards,
Fiel
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GREED FOR SPEED LOFT
434 posts
Feb 16, 2008
5:04 PM
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Steve you are right about the 30point scoring. So you can amagine what the score 13 point bird looked like,, not a representation of a spinner at all.
R-LUNA
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George R.
165 posts
Feb 16, 2008
5:08 PM
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Richard
In all fairness you should have applied the World Cup rules to the SBRC Birds and then see where they stand.
As simple as it was to go to CPRC and apply the SBRC rules to them then thats how simple it would have been to apply the World Cup rules to the SBRC.
Im sure that after waiting around for a break or some Individual action about once every five minutes some would have felt that was not a good impression of Birmingham Rollers
Last Edited by on Feb 16, 2008 5:11 PM
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3757
624 posts
Feb 16, 2008
5:11 PM
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KC - I like that phrase "New school and old school" just do not say that new is better or old is better it is as George stated what the fancier desires and I am an old school cat and proud of it. 30 years from now if I am still around (Damn I will almost be 100) I will still be the same guy flying for velocity and speed using the 30 point system. I even miss the old drive thru hamburger stands, Helms bakery trucks, and all that peace and love we use to have!!!!!!
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GREED FOR SPEED LOFT
435 posts
Feb 16, 2008
5:13 PM
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George they invited to judge the ind, fly based on the SBRC scoring.. I believe strongly that the 30 point system is the ultimate (epic) and can't be beaten with another system.
R-LUNA
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George R.
167 posts
Feb 16, 2008
5:23 PM
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Richard
Have you talked to Ruben from Orange County ??
He gave me a kit of squekers that he said he bred out of Birds he got from you around 2004 ??
Tell him I said Hi .
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DeepSpinLofts
301 posts
Feb 16, 2008
7:51 PM
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Woo hoo 3757
Good evening....
I'm working predomominantly with Plona's. Very strong flyers and a few exceptionally deep performers with this family I'm working with.
...but
What I want to know is this; Have breeders been crossing Graham Fireballs or some other family of rollers with the original Black Country Pensom imports in order to make this new strain of high velocity American Rollers.... which can roll anywhere to 15ft-80ft with frequency as a team?
Am I wrong for asking this question?
I've been dealing with rollers since 1975 when I was just 10 years old... and today still feel like I have an encylopedia worth of stuff to learn here.
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
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warpspeed
8 posts
Feb 16, 2008
9:47 PM
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to set the record straight i have flown everthing out of 0016 since 2004 and in the early 90's as a young man i had bird sons and grand sons out of 1220 that i got from eddie scott and kevin adams and beat the cprc that year with those birds both familys are awesome wish i still had some of them and i have bred out of better cocks than 0016. all that really matters is what you make of the bird and that you get the most out of them. the only way i know how is to fly the shit out of them and i have. todays birds come in a little earlier but its because we have made them that way. and to everyone that says the competition birds dont spin hard and blurrr out bullll**** .
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George R.
168 posts
Feb 16, 2008
9:58 PM
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Marcus
not sure if you know that Plona (RIP) has been gone for YEARS .
So Im not sure how you aquired PLONA BIRDS.
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elopez
536 posts
Feb 16, 2008
11:09 PM
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Well said Warpspeed. Thanks for the info.
0016 still hitting for you?
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Efren Lopez
SGVS
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DeepSpinLofts
303 posts
Feb 16, 2008
11:39 PM
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Why George, I'm totally aware that Stan Plona died years ago.
...well anyway
I acquired my birds a little over 4 years ago from Dan Smith formerly of Napa California.
He said these rollers were of the Plona strain (Black Country) and told me to bring all my birds back through my cheques. Dan also hooked me up about 2 years ago with some Norm Reed and 514 stock as crosses to enhance frequency. Dan said the Plona's were a linebred family and weren't crossed with anything.
Dan is a straight forward Vietnam vet who wouldn't bull**** anybody! I'm sitting here right now in my office with an original copy of a book written by William H. Pensom which was published 1958 in Los Angeles, California. What I find so remarkable about this book is that it was personally signed by Pensom. This book is 50 years old.... and not a remake. Dan gave it to me as a gift and said to hold onto it.
To make a long story short George, I'm genetically engineering my family based upon performance levels observed in the air... then combined scientifically with what I can sucessfully develop in the breeding pen.
Talk to you later...
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
Last Edited by on Feb 16, 2008 11:44 PM
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3757
625 posts
Feb 17, 2008
6:39 AM
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Marcus - No Marcus I do not think anyone would cross fireballs to enhance the birds because that would defeat the purpose. Fireballs are long flying seldom deep performers and they do not break together so that would be going backwards to me but you would have to ask the breeder himself. Bill Yurga was one of my greatest friends in the 1970's and he had Fireballs some from Nordlund and French. He also had birds bred by Bill Pensom and he kept them in two separate lofts and all of the breeders who had Pensom's or fireballs from Bill kept them totally sepearate. The old timers that I new did this. Did you know that Bill Pensom had other breeds but he kept them seperate.
One note on the Plona strain - I have a couple of good friends one who even post on this site who actually has this strain and one of them actually had birds directly from Stan Plona. The ones that received birds from Tom Stone, or Kawalski in the early years had birds directly off of Plona bred birds. There were scores of Plona birds that bred will into the 90's since Stan died in 1979. You could conceivable still have birds around that are off of a Stan bird today. If a 1979 bird was still hitting in 1994-96 they could have progeny still alive at 12. That is not unrealistic at all in the “old families” as the Pensom birds bred well into the teen years with no problems. Bill Pensom had birds still producing in the 1980's and he died in 1968. My good friend Thurmond has a cock that all four grandparents were bred by Smith. This cock is no longer furtile and he is a 1990 or 91 bird. The plona strain has a different look than what most would call the Pensom strain that derived directly from Bills hands.
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elopez
537 posts
Feb 17, 2008
11:28 AM
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Warpspeed,
How are the offspring working for you?
I would sure like to see some of them and the 0003 offspring in the air...
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Efren Lopez
SGVS
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warpspeed
10 posts
Feb 17, 2008
1:32 PM
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any time you want to stop by once i start flying again in march probably and the offspring are working out great i still have two off of each in my a team
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warpspeed
11 posts
Feb 17, 2008
1:41 PM
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if i feel it will be run right and the birds are going to have a fair chance yes. sometimes i just get so nervous with all the virues going around poor tim decker is still sufferring from his deal with the classic birds and someone sending one that had the circo virues
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elopez
538 posts
Feb 17, 2008
2:10 PM
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Sounds Great Warpspeed. You still going to make it to the show on March 2nd? I haven't actually met you so it would be cool to chat with you a bit. Although we might have our hands full that day not sure how much chatting we can do...
The bird you are thinking of donating wouldn't be off of 0003 would it???
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Efren Lopez
SGVS
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DeepSpinLofts
304 posts
Feb 17, 2008
4:24 PM
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Thanks for the info 3757.
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
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George R.
175 posts
Feb 17, 2008
6:01 PM
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I want to wish everyone good Luck in the World Cup prelims.
Even if you dont have a kit ready, enter them anyways they may Surprise You.
Last Edited by on Feb 20, 2008 8:49 PM
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3757
628 posts
Feb 17, 2008
6:57 PM
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George - That just showed me your level of thinking. You cannot have a decent intelligent conversation. That was a very ignorant comment! It is because of comments like yours that I have always stuck with a few individuals who have some dignity and respect!
Last Edited by on Feb 17, 2008 7:00 PM
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George R.
179 posts
Feb 17, 2008
7:00 PM
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Laron
I gave you guys a compliment on your stock , you guys have all the birds that go Back to the original super stars.
If there is something wrong with that then I dont understand you.
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3757
629 posts
Feb 17, 2008
7:09 PM
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George - You are talking to a guy that analyzes people for a living and I did not get the education that I have to be ignorant. Your are trying to be a smart donkey because I have stated that I only fly in the PRC and SBRC using the 30 point system a myriad of times. So, do not play me for a fool carnal!
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elopez
546 posts
Feb 17, 2008
7:13 PM
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It sounded pretty SARCASTIC to me?
Not sure George, all I can say is I've met LaRon and he is a great guy with a lot of knowledge on Rollers. LaRon will always have my respect and friendship.
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Efren Lopez
SGVS
Last Edited by on Feb 17, 2008 11:13 PM
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George R.
182 posts
Feb 17, 2008
7:14 PM
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Laron
Maybe I missed it but I never have read a post where you said you only Fly useing the 30 point system .
I will go back and check it out maybe I over
looked it CARNAL.
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3757
630 posts
Feb 17, 2008
7:40 PM
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Efren - Thanks a million. I truly respect you and the entire SGVS.
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GREED FOR SPEED LOFT
437 posts
Feb 17, 2008
9:07 PM
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Georgie what have you been smoking,it's bunk stuff. Don't buy that sh** no more. Dude I or we did not mean to touch your soft spot or hurt your feelings..If I did I'm sorry.
R-LUNA
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George R.
187 posts
Feb 17, 2008
9:16 PM
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Rich
no hurt feelings LOL have you talked Ruben ?
Rich a friend of mine is flying a family based on your Birds and he made the FALL FLY finals 2 years in a ROW.
Last Edited by on Feb 17, 2008 9:19 PM
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GREED FOR SPEED LOFT
439 posts
Feb 17, 2008
9:24 PM
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George I new you'd get a kick out of it.LOL
Yes I 've talked to Ruben about a month ago but thanks for a reminder to call him again and when I do I'll let him know you send your salutations.
Your partner must be a good trainer,, wish him the best.
R-LUNA
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GREED FOR SPEED LOFT
440 posts
Feb 17, 2008
9:30 PM
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Laron you crack me up. lol lol
R-LUNA
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3757
632 posts
Feb 17, 2008
9:42 PM
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Richard, no estoy bromeando en absoluto. Quiero saber que es tu amiga?
Rich - You know I do not joke in that fashion. Give me a call!
Last Edited by on Feb 17, 2008 9:44 PM
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elopez
548 posts
Feb 17, 2008
11:25 PM
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Laron,
Gracias amigo!
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Efren Lopez
SGVS
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DeepSpinLofts
305 posts
Feb 18, 2008
2:46 AM
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Good morning Efren...
QUESTION: Is the Higgins and London family of birds similar in performance style, body-type, character and expression?
The reason why I ask is because I'm logging all of this stuff into my data banks for future reference.
You know what they say:
=====> "Knowledge is Power"!
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
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George R.
192 posts
Feb 18, 2008
7:48 AM
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Marcus
If you send me a box and the shipping money I will give you two birds that are from the Higgins Family for free so you can try them yourself.
email me at g1ruiz@cox.net
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3757
634 posts
Feb 18, 2008
8:39 AM
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Marcus - I never met you but I will counter the offer and send you two of mine for the same deal (Shipping and box and you evaluate the two! Fly both strains for a year or more hard! Velocity, Style (First) then Frequency and Depth. I guareentee that the others will not be faster or more stylish in performance. Like my old friend would say I guareentee!!!!
Last Edited by on Feb 18, 2008 9:04 AM
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