Monty and Heine can judge my kit anyday,,,Not only would it be a Honor but also a great view of how they see things and what i ought to do to improve my game etc..etc.. Rest in Peace Monty-- These 2 guys are roller legends and consistent in what they do best . To have won W/C 3 times.They are the Tiger Woods in this roller hobby . Only a Champion can see what others dont see...They are THERE AND YOUR NOT!!Which leaves us speculating what is possible and what isnt? Just cause you dont see it in your backyard doesnt mean its not possible!! ..If You Can Think it>>.You Can Do It!!! ----* sidLOVe*
Last Edited by on Feb 08, 2008 5:23 PM
Ken, I wont go as far as to say its impossible but I would like to be there some time to witness it.LOL. I have seen some pretty awsome kits over the years and to say that these kits are 3-4 times better is hard for me to imagine. Joe ---------- J.M.Urbon Lofts A Proven Family of Spinners http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
Shadow, You are correct in saying it can and probaly will happen again. Judging is and always will be subjective. Consistancy is all a guy can ask for. We do this as a hobby and the last time I judged there wasnt a check in the mail the next week. We do it for the love of these birds. The only thing we can ask for is that the best kit is declared the winner in the end. The problem with last years judging is I am not sure that was the case. Heine's kit no doubt was a great kit and probably deserving to win. They had in the past and I dont think we have seen the last of his name in the top 10. Judging is strictly voluntary just that most finals judges that I have seen know how to trim the fat if you know what I mean. Brian didnt know how. JMHO. Joe Urbon ---------- J.M.Urbon Lofts A Proven Family of Spinners http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
hi all the ONLY reason anyone gets near 2000 pts is because of the rules in the w/c.the old thank god split good riddance rule .it made judging a farce .i witnessed monty using it + he was over 600 pts above my score+ he was judging my mates birds .i have seen other judges use the rule + 1 of them told me not to blame him but the rules.lets see now that its been kicked out if we can get back to normality.
At a time where a video camera can fit in your pocket why isnt there any videos of these 1000 point kits. I'll pay top dollar to see these incredible kits.lol ---------- Frank H.
John, I hope you are right about that being the fix, but my money says those same judges would do exactly the same thing with or without the 1/2 sec. rule. ---------- Just my Opinion Scott
Last Edited by on Feb 10, 2009 10:20 AM
A slight difference in a judges juging style can make a huge alteration to scores. Take a kit that is rolling deep, high quality rolls, and is breaking 2-3 times a minute. That kit could score 1000 points or more. Another judge looking at the same kit could consider that most of the breaks are waterfalls and may only score 1/10th of the score. When I flew the WC prelim in 2000, the kit were on fire, and the judge said it was the best kit he ever saw. My score was just over 400pts. Our regional director said they would have scored 600 points under an American judge, and at least 1000pts under WC rules. We didn't use WC rules for the prelim in those days, and the English flyers couldn't understand how the finalists got such high scores. When I see kits scoring 2000 pts in a regional prelim and the 10th man in that region is still scoring 500pts I do suspect it is easy judging, especialy when they get beaten in the finals by teams that scored 200pts or less in the prelim. There is no doubt that a kit of rollers is capable of beaking with depth and quality 3 times a minute, but this is a rare and exceptional occurence. I have only seen a kit of mine fly to that standard on one occasion, and i really don't believe what I saw even now. I would have scored them 1000pts raw score. If I never see anything close to that peformance ever again, I can think of that performance anytime I want to cheer myself up.
Pete,how often do you see a kit rolling on a average of 2- 3 times a minute for 20 minutes with quality ?
(Take a kit that is rolling deep, high quality rolls, and is breaking 2-3 times a minute. That kit could score 1000 points or more.) ---------- Just my Opinion Scott
Last Edited by on Feb 10, 2009 11:26 AM
Pete, I had one such fly a few years ago, it was more of a phenomenon than anything ,honestly I was scared for them as they pushed past thier physical limit, that team wasn't the same for 4-6 months after that day,it was very strange.
(If I never see anything close to that peformance ever again, I can think of that performance anytime I want to cheer myself up.) ---------- Just my Opinion Scott
For years I have been saying that a kit of birds could not do 1000 points let alone 2000. Due to an experience I had in last years WC I have had ro adjust my thinking somewhat. ---------- Just My Take On Things
A frequent (4x per min.)kit of birds rolling short 10'(1.0) with the minimum scorable quality (1.0) and breaking kinda big(10) could easliy score 1000 - 2000 points in a fly.
Scott, Pete,how often do you see a kit rolling on a average of 2- 3 times a minute for 20 minutes with quality ?
I only saw it the once Scott and that was at my place. I've flow similar kits hundreds of times, as I said it is a very rare sight, but it showeed me it could be done.
Which American judge ? not have been decent others not
Scott I don't think he was refering to anyone in particular, but was commenting on the average style of Judges that had had seen from the U.S. (he had been RD for 10 years and gone round every final in England).
Pete, I had one such fly a few years ago, it was more of a phenomenon than anything ,honestly I was scared for them as they pushed past thier physical limit, that team wasn't the same for 4-6 months after that day,it was very strange.
Funny you should say that Scott, the prelim in 2000 they rolled their asses off and not only that, they did it for 2 hours. I gave them 3 days rest, and when I flew them again 2 birds rolled comming out of the loft they was so weakened, at least half of them didn't want to fly (most unusual, they normaly busted out). They did very poorly in the final and one very good spangle cock was never the same again.
I think you can get high scores with big breaks..but the high scores should be few and far in between....
To be honest...I could give a rats ass what the score is...as long as the judge is consistent....Scores are like this...beauty is in the eye of the beholder....we have rules but the way we judge is just that...eye of the beholder nothing more nothing less.
Its like this in any sport...how many fouls were called when the replay says no...look at GAME 6 LAKERS VS KINGS....LOL....or football...same thing...some sports or hobbies are just that...up to the judge...I remember Goat Judging..I had a Doe that was Grand Champion 5 different times...and beat another goat everytime...and on one show...it was reserve to the goat it beat everytime.....why..that judge saw something that they like...same with birds....some judges have it in there head what is good and what is bad...
but it all boils down to one thing...CONSISTENT...and making sure the best Kit wins...as long as the order is right...I myself dont care....We can all talk until we are blue in the face..until we have instant replay and get to review the tapes on each kit...then that is all we have is what we have.
I have seen kits come out on fire..and hold it together...and that may be 1 out of 500 flies....I have watched....a crappy NFL team beat a Superbowl Team.....I have seen the worst team in the NBA beat the Lakers.....I remember a time when some would say that you would never score a perfect 10 in Gymnastics....because it is imposible to be perfect....I remember when a 100 point NBA game was a never in some eyes...or a sprinter beating the 10 second mark.....or a Drag car surpassing the 5 second 1/4 mile...I remember the day when I saw 4.99 sec...anyway...my point is that on any given Sunday...ANYTHING can happen.
I have seen my kit do it one time and one time only...and those who know me know that I am tough on my birds and I know what quality is...and I kid you not as god be my witness....in 06...one of the best teams I ever had....Had 49 breaks in 20 minutes....and some big breaks...and those birds held it together...they only flew 31 minutes and they hit the kit box like they were ready to die they were so tired...I actually called Tony that day when it was going on and if he remembers that day...I said..bam again....they wer breaking on every turn..they would break....regroup..fly a turn and dump again....have my birds ever done it again..NOPE....and I have maybe flown my birds over the years 1000 time since then..so one out of a thousand flies...that is called any given Sunday.
Do I think it can be done...yes....on that perfect day....the air is just right....they are in great shape...peaked out...the temp is right on the nose....every bird in the kit is peaking at the same time....they are not to healthy..feeling good..not to weak and not to strong...the humidity is just right...maybe they are getting a little lift in the atmosphere..just enough to keep them from getting worn out......
So...Yes...I think 1,000 point kit is possible...if you look at the rules...and follow the rules to a "T".....it can happen....picture 9 birds dump...the rest of the kit turns...and then the 9 birds pop out and head straight for the kit...enroute to the kit...then 8 more dump in the kit...so within 10 second you had 2 breaks...correct me if I am wrong...birds returning from the kit from a roll are NOT considered out birds...so that means the team can break again as long as the other birds are returning from the kit....then the team regroups......they do a half loop in the sky....slow the wing beat...hit the turn..BAM they do it again....I can see it happen...POPCORN KIT no way...I say...ANY GIVEN SUNDAY>>>>>>those who dont believe will never see....they are blinded by doubt...
Flip, it is very very doubtful that such birds would have scoreable quality with that kind of frequency, but without a doubt some score that kind of stuff,it's a sad state of affairs.
Scott
(A frequent (4x per min.)kit of birds rolling short 10'(1.0) with the minimum scorable quality (1.0) and breaking kinda big(10) could easliy score 1000 - 2000 points in a fly. ) ---------- Just my Opinion Scott
how about bobby bradley score a few years ago i heard he scored 2000 points and i can't remember who the judge or what numbers he got that was big talk about that.........donny james
Scott, I just realized said, "I've flow similar kits hundreds of times", what I should have said is I've flown similar kits hundreds of times but never got anywhere near the same performance. Don't want to give the impression I am a complete bragger.
Pete,it sounds like a simular situation, the funny thing is this was a decent kit but not the best I've flown. This happened the weekend prior to a W/C pre-lem, the pre-lem was as my buddy Kenny Billings put it a total train "wreck" ,birds on the roof, birds on ground, I think like 9 made it up, was a friggen mess LOL
(Funny you should say that Scott, the prelim in 2000 they rolled their asses off and not only that, they did it for 2 hours. I gave them 3 days rest, and when I flew them again 2 birds rolled comming out of the loft they was so weakened, at least half of them didn't want to fly (most unusual, they normaly busted out). They did very poorly in the final and one very good spangle cock was never the same again.)
---------- Just my Opinion Scott
Last Edited by on Feb 11, 2009 8:41 AM
Paul, that is like saying that if the umpire is calling foul balls in that it is Ok as long as he is consistant, what if the other team is hitting them hard down the middle , aren't you then in reality stealing points from them by giving the other team points they shouldn't have had ? That is exactly what happens with a loose judge , we need consistancy, but it is a mute point when fouls are called as scoreable,also when kits like Flip described are scored,we might as well be flying competition tumblers.
(but it all boils down to one thing...CONSISTENT...) ---------- Just my Opinion Scott
Last Edited by on Feb 11, 2009 7:05 AM
Paul, I agree with your opinion on kit breaks but I have heard of another. One man that I know of has stated an opinion that after a break, the kit cannot score again till they all (meaning 2 can be out or returning) reform a kit again. I have seen few if any 100% agreements on a single aspect of this hobby. Things that we think would be so clearly understood one way, is seldom the case, as you know. Cliff
hi all well said scott im sick of hearing about the judge is always right what a load of bull.he may always have the final say but that does not mean he/s right.my pet hate in this game is the hippocrites that say one thing in front of people + then say the complete opposite to someone else.TELL THEM THE TRUTH.
On the first page of this topic, the flyer had 26 breaks in 5 minutes.... with 1.7 quality and 1.6 depth!Thats birds breaking 5 times a minute! Where is the video replay for that one?
I understand what you are saying about a foul ball...but to me that is not a comparison of what I am trying to say...a foul ball is clear cut..you have lines on the baseball field and if the ball hits the bat and it goes outside the lines it is a foul...what I am talking about is "Judgement calls"...like a guy sliding into home plate...did the tag come before the runner hit the base...judgement calls....or what is a strike and what is not....is a judgement call...but we must remember too that ...umpires go to umpire school and get approved by a governing body to be an umpire...but there are still judgement calls....I should have been more clear about my camparisons..
So a roller judge is just that...judgement..but maybe not compared to a pro umpire...maybe a little league umpire ...the ladder umpires do not have training....so they are more likely to mess up the judgement calls...but with a strike and a ball...it has to do with consistancy..if a pitcher pitches and finds that the umpire is "Consistantly" calling strikes a little high...and is doing it for Both teams then the pitcher will adjust....but as long as the ump is consistant..it is fair across the board....is it right....NO.....until we define our rules with no gray areas...then we will be just fine.....or have judged approved by a governing body to be a judge..then it will be more clear.
I do see what you are saying and I do agree that there are loose judges that call everything that moves...and there are some that want perfection....then there are the ones in the middle..and usually the middle is the right judge. But again...a judgement call is like calling a foul in the NBA...was it or was not..up to the ref...but when it goes through the basket it is two points no ifs and or buts....football..kicking it through the uprights is 3 points....but a holding call or did the guy have two feet in is a judgement call..and it happens so fast..just like a good break in a kit...it is fast...
The thing with a kit of birds is that we are restricted by the human eye...the human eye cant focus on more that 3 or 4 things that happen at one time...anything else is a blur...so when someone says...9 birds broke...they cant say they saw the quality of 9 brids..that my friend is IMPOSSIBLE...just like the player with two feet in...if you are watching to see if the ball is in control...the same time that you are trying to see the player feet and the same time you are trying to see if the defensive player is interfering with the catch....you cant do all three at one time...so the ref has to use his judgement...same with us.
A loose judge will say its 15 bird break there.counted every wing that moved.
Middle of the road judge might not count that but think about it .Maybe say 5 to 8
Tough Judge will say are you kidding me thats 0 cause fluttering in which maybe less then 5 did have straightness but werent 10 feet or didnt finish corectly so its 0 .
CMON GUYS GIVE IT A TRY ? WHAT IS THIS BREAK TO YOU?
djsid Thunderbirds
Last Edited by on Feb 11, 2009 5:43 PM
Pure junk Sid. Very difficult to get a good video of good birds in action but I cant see a single bird that looks clean enough to score. JMHO however. Joe ---------- J.M.Urbon Lofts A Proven Family of Spinners http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
Paul, you are correct, the eye cannot focus, and that is why your soul focus is on the team, not ind. birds. So yes you certainly can evaluate 9 or more birds, if it couldn't be done than we would be in a impossible situation, but we aren't. Scott
(...the human eye cant focus on more that 3 or 4 things that happen at one time...anything else is a blur...so when someone says...9 birds broke...they cant say they saw the quality of 9 brids..that my friend is IMPOSSIBLE..) ---------- Just my Opinion Scott
You are right..you cant evaluate and individual bird..you have to evaluate the team as a whole. So your eye focuses on one bird then another then another..so you do evaluate a lot of birds..but just quick flashes...then you will focus on just the break areas..after a couple breaks...your eye will catch the overall quality of a team....so you are using your gut instinct when judging and reasoning...So it is impossible to evaluate all nine birds at the same time...you focus on blips..but if you focused on only a couple birds...then we would have individual flys....you dont focus on every player of the field...you focus on where the action is.everything around your area of focus is just a blur..but you can evaluate the team over all by just seeing the action...that is all we are doing....but while the good judges focus on the action area and blur out the rest that dont catch your eye....you only judge what you see....a loose judge will not blur out the un focused area they will see a blur of action and count it....so it can evaluate 9 or more birds..but just quick flashes.....does that make sense or do I have to stop hitting the sauce....oh...and if a kit is like that video....nothing catches your eye.....so its easy to tell junk.. r
I find it harder to pick 4 or 5 rollers out of a team of flutterers and loose rollers that all go together, than to pick fifteen goood rollers out if only the 15 go. After years of looking for quality in kits your eyes instinctvely look to the good rolls. I've judged kit that put loads of 3/4 turns in, and had no difficulty seeing that they all rolled correctly and finished well, because they were that good that any glitch would have stood out. I think the most difficult thing is to concentrate on is one doubtfull bird to evaluate it for removal from the team. Every time a bird close to it rolls your eyes get drawn away.
Sid , Thanks for posting the video. The birds are not obviously 'breaking' into rolls but they seem to stutter a bit,lol There are a few that popped up with it that were worth watching. Was the sound cut short? At one point the camera man says "Golly"-- Was he going to say "golly what a load of (whatever)", or was he immpessed? lol
The one of BMC's rollers was nice to watch, but some vids are too far away to see clearly what is going on.
No Paul, I don't focus on any one bird,you can't,those quik flashes at birds that you are talking about is like taking your eye off of the team and you are going to miss things. Pete,exactly right ,and no doubt the better team the easier it is as you don't have work so hard seperating the wheat from the chaff. ---------- Just my Opinion Scott
I'm a page behind. In 2006 Heine Bijker judge my kit and did a great job. He gave me just what was there...no more no less..the birds were off that day from a feed change that I should have not done. I ask him that day How some one scores over 1000 he said that..they don't..not how we score them at home. I then ask him how deep were Monty's kit tha he judge and he said that they were 25 ft the whole bunch of them. He gave a 1.6 for depth which I think was on the money for a group of birds all rolling 25ft. He did state that he wanted to judge again because he felt that he was a bit to liberal the first go around. bwinward
Last Edited by on Feb 12, 2009 7:11 AM
I totally agree with you guys that practice and instict helps you evaluate the whole kit...
but it is HUMANLY IMPOSSIBLE for the human eye to focus on 14 pigeons at the exact same time...it has nothing to do with how good you are watching a team of 14 birds break or 3/4 turns...I assure you that you are not seeing all 14 birds at the same time.....again..IT IS HUMANLY IMPOSSIBLE....if you can slow down time like the matrix movies and see all 14 birds at the same time from start to finish.....then we are calling the Harvard school of medicine and do some studies on how you have super eye power..and then we will issue you both capes with an S on the back and a set of tights with an S because you guys are showing Super human traits...Super Scott has a ring to it....LOL....you can be on my Pirate boat too...shit I can only see half the birds because of my eye patch..
Anyway....I know exactly what you are saying and I totally understand what you are saying...we are all seeing a quick slide show if are head as the birds break..a glimps of 3 or 4 at a time...picture this ....a break of 13.....in that two seconds of rolling your eye will move left, right, center, left , right , center....focusing on DIFFERENT birds as they roll..and your reasoning kicks in and you brain says...the quick SCAN of the area says these birds are a 1.5 in quality.....then you move on...depth is easier to see because it is the finished product....trust me...if the human eye could focus from start to finish on so many things at once..we would never need instant replay in football...the studies have been done...look it up...if I throw a handfull of rocks at you..lets say 14..your eye will focus on maybe 3...and scan 5 to 10....and you wont see 4 or 5 at all...as all 14 hit you in the face......and your memory will be the textures of maybe 4 or 5 rocks.....so again....you may train your eye to SCAN 14 birds at once and I agree with you.....the good judges will have better reasoning when they score a kit of birds...and you will focus on the birds that are doing it...and you will focus on the birds that are messing up....that is a well trained eye...but you cant fight biology or physics...
Pirate, argue all you want, you can't focus or scan on anything, if you do you will not be able to see what is doing it correctly and what isn't on a "WHOLE" , keep you girlfriend out of the yard and you would be able to keep a better on on your kit , and while on that note she's not allowed over here either if a judge is here LOL ---------- Just my Opinion Scott
Pete stated.."After years of looking for quality in kits your eyes instinctvely look to the good rolls."
It's kits with.. mixed quality.. that makes it hard to judge...a few good birds mixed in a kit of average frequent roller that pull the ..wool over the eyes.. of the judges at times..I still like..consistant..judges..even if they are consistantly wrong..even if the score doesn't represent what I think it should..if they judge everyone the same the winner's are usually lined up right or very close to how they should be no matter who judges. The problem I have is when the judge gets.. influnced by the people..the "Hoopla" of the event.. and not the birds.. with his score.
Pete also stated.." Take a kit that is rolling deep, high quality rolls, and is breaking 2-3 times a minute. That kit could score 1000 points or more." That works.. on paper.. for me I have sat down and added it up on paper..and in my mind it would be a great kit..Just have to witness it in the air..and that has not happen yet. I can see the 500-700 range..but beyond that........ Bwinward
Last Edited by on Feb 12, 2009 9:05 AM
winward, You are right about the mixed kits. I once judges a kit that had 6or7 scoreable rolliers. The rest were not scorableor they were very active. I had at least 2 breaks when the whole kit went together, and there were probably 5 or 6 rollers rolling simultaneously, but try as might, I couldn't see them, it was just a mess. I'm sure guys were looking for mwe to score the break, but out odf the twenty I couldn't have sworn that any of them were rolling properly. If guy hasn't got more than 5 - 10 decent rollers he has two options,well 3 the first being not to fly them,lol If he has some active birds they will stimulate the rollers into action, but they will also be a distraction that may lose him some scoreable rolls, and will tend to lower the judges opinon of the overall quality of the kit. He can put them with very short rollers or straight flyers, so that the rollers will seperate from the kit and make the judges job easier, but he is liable to get fewer breaks from a kit with a lot of stiffs in it.
The problem is that many fanciers have never witnessed a very good kit of rollers, never mind a phenomenal one and so they cannot imagine a kit rolling deep enough and frequently enough, and with enough quality to get those high scores. Also many people do not take into account what high multiplyers can do to a score. you wrote: " I can see the 500-700 range..but beyond that......." Lets say it's a brilliant kit that breaks big not 3-4 times a minute buy twice a minute and the average break is 10 (we are talking exceptional, phenomenal, etc etc) thats 40 breaks X 20pts = 800pts. Well lets say for the sake od argument thatwe are expecting too much of guys belief to accept this as being possible, and so I will half that score to 400pts, which is still a very very good kit. Now, if you multiply that by 1.4 and 1.4 you will get a final score of 790 if my calculations are right. But we are talking about a world cup finalist with high quality birds that are on top form and so his kit is awarded 1.6 for depth and 1.7 for quality, his final score will now total 1088 and we have the 1000 plus score. Is that more believable when explained than just staing the final score? The 800 raw score while not immposible is highly improbable but that would total = 2176 with the same multiplyers. The maximum score possible with a raw score of 800pts is 3200! I have never seen such kits as the 800pt kit in competition, but I have seen kits on flys that did 5 good breaks per minute for a few minutes before quieting down again, and have seen this many times. The trick is to get a kit that wants to perform in such a mannner for 10 minutes, or more, and is also capable, and fit enough to do it.
Not only did Monte's and Heini's scores have no witnesses, but neither did Bradley's 2300 pts, fueling a feud that followed him to his grave. RIP. I think we need a rule in place that witnesses need to be present. It just keeps everybody more honest with themselves. Cliff
Ciff, Many times a great fly is held without a crowd. However we have to supply a judge and a timekeeper (who isn't the competitor) so there are usually at least 3 witnesses. Pete.
Pete I'm talking 500 to 700..total points..not raw score.
Lets say this under 1000 points.. ...but 500 to 700 range would be a great kit in my book. Birds rolling 2.. maybe 3 times a minute..that is what I am looking for. bwinward
Last Edited by on Feb 14, 2009 3:02 PM
I like hard deep rolls not popcorn action.A few years ago I put the screws to a kit that was so so and kept putting the screws to them not knowing any better and one day they came out and I had more action than I have ever seen to this day but it wasn't rolling it was action took a month to get them to evan fly agin.I will not do it agin.I can adjust there depth and feg with type of feed and air time still havn't fond the secert mix yet.Blake
