George R.
153 posts
Feb 14, 2008
8:24 PM
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Cliff
I have noticed you have done real good the last few flys you have competed in.
can you tell us a little about the family of Birds you Fly ??.
And Congrads on your recent success as I know its not only the Birds but also the trainer.
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SpinCityRollers
123 posts
Feb 15, 2008
11:09 PM
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cliff all my andy goes back to turners bird from randy they are very very fast bird for sure. hey that funny that randy did pretty well with those bird too `mater flyer and all the record in cprc they are very good bird for sure
keep em rolling
spincity
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George R.
156 posts
Feb 16, 2008
7:19 AM
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Thank you Cliff
And keep up the Hard work and good luck in this years flys!!
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George R.
159 posts
Feb 16, 2008
7:38 AM
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PENSOM BIRDS LOL !!!
Last Edited by on Feb 16, 2008 7:38 AM
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Scott
20 posts
Feb 16, 2008
8:00 AM
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Cliff, you been doing good ! I have found that success comes from honing in and around particular birds and not from particular families.
I have have seen many Turners that were pure junk, and I have seen many Billing based birds that are pure junk, the same can be said for Higgins ect.
It should be noted also that calling the birds that many of these guys are flying "Turners" is a misrepresentation as most have crossed them with other families due to extreamly high rolldown rate and the problems associated with it such as kitting problems,lack of team work ect.
The same holds true for Randy Gibson, I believe he crossed them onto Kieser 272 stuff
Scott
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Ballrollers
1036 posts
Feb 17, 2008
7:14 PM
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Thanks, Scott. You are right about one thing......every family breeds its share of junk. But as you know, you are mistaken about the part abut the crossing of the Turner family. The birds that I got from Jay are straight from Turner. The birds I got from Joe Bob are straight Turner. Both guys have sidelines of an outcross with one or two other families in their search for the perfect roller. And both of them will tell you, as they have told me repeatedly, that they must keep breeding back to the South Carolina line to maintain the speed, quality, and work rate. But excessive rolldowns? Kitting problems?? Only in your imagination my friend.
But I am sure that you must know more than I do since you have worked with this family longer than I have, and you must have far more experience with men flying Turner birds close to you. LOL! However "MY" personal experience and based on the number of men who have done very well in national and international competitions, it does not lead me to the same conclusions that you have come to about this family.
I'm sure that you realize that the problems with flying rollers is more a matter of flyer's expertise than problems with the birds. From my experience, many of the problems men attribute to the birds is not the fault of the birds but more the fault of the flyer. I have my share of unstable birds but no more so than many other families of birds that I am familiar with. But if that is your opinion than I will take it for that, and thank you for participating in this thread. But since I am much more familiar with these birds than you, I will not place much worth in your opinion.
(Example: I bet I can ruin a quality kit of birds in a short period of time, if I cut their feed, allow their feed and water to become contaminated, fly them twice a day without a break, worm them each week, give them epsom salts each week and allow them to stand in feces for weeks on time. When they start to rolldown some uninformed will take it upon themselves to proclaim for all to hear, " this family of birds are unstable crap. Which brings us back to the historical beginnings for the reason for flying rollers........) But, unfortunately, it sounds more like the same old, "WA WA WA , My birds are better than your birds" under the surface, my friend. LOL!
Cliff
Last Edited by on Feb 17, 2008 7:19 PM
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Scott
47 posts
Feb 17, 2008
8:01 PM
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Oakie Dokie buddy
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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George R.
190 posts
Feb 17, 2008
9:28 PM
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Cliff
If I am correct the Turner based birds have been holding there own and WINNING.
whatever you guys are doing is working .
Good Luck in the World Cup prelims.
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nicksiders
2576 posts
Feb 18, 2008
6:36 AM
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I would like to know what these Turner guys are using to regain stability. If there is one family that is common. A pure Turner has to be interesting and I find the term "pure" as a little over used now days and I don't have a full understanding of its true value in my recent days.
There is very little respect given to the Birmingham Roller anymore.........too many breeders have moved away and the word "Birmingham" has even been dropped off and only "Roller" is used to describe what they possess in thier lofts. I have had breeders tell me that the word "Birmingham" no longer has any significants.
Nick Siders
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Ballrollers
1037 posts
Feb 18, 2008
6:41 AM
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Thanks, George. I have noticed the same thing. If a guy can take this family of birds and in a relatively short period of time win his WC and NBRC region with the kinds of competition as we have, and make it to the top 13 in the world and the top 3 in the nation using judges from all around the country....well, you know the family has the goods. This family was developed by James from Pensom and Lloyd Thompson birds, during the 80's and 90's. He crossed in roller lines that already had genes for indigo, reduced, brown, etc. that he selected from men who had been working on them for generations. He experimented with a few breed outcrosses himself, but culled them all when he saw what he had to work with. As I said, I have birds straight from James Turner, with pedigrees going back many generations. The main line of his birds have been bred true by roller men ever since. Naturally, some have side lines of this family outcrossed to other families of rollers in their pursuit of the perfect roller, just like the majority of roller men do. I have done the same thing with several families and am currently working on a line outcross with a Starley line of Joe Bob's that I bought at the 2007 NBRC Convention Futurity Kit auction. The best outcross that I have seen so far, personally, has been with Henry Cook's family. But the birds in my holdover competition kit are straight Turners...nothing added to "regain stability". LOL! The primary fault with the Turner/South Carolina family, that I have seen so far, is that variable depth rollers are few and far between. Most of them are very fast, but will roll one depth, no matter how high they are, especially during preparation for competitions, and you loose some excellent performers. That has led a few guys like Scott and Nick, who are unfamiliar with working with this family and looking for a fault to criticize, to incorrectly conclude that there must be major stability issues, which is not the case at all. In the past three breeding seasons, I have bred about 2-3% rolldowns, which is entirely within the range of where I want to be with the heat in a family of rollers.
That's been my experience, so far, George.
YITS,
Cliff
PS I agree with you Nick. There has been so much outcrossing between families and strains of rollers for the past hendred years that the word "pure" doesn't really mean much anymore.
Last Edited by on Feb 18, 2008 6:51 AM
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nicksiders
2577 posts
Feb 18, 2008
6:52 AM
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Just as a side note; Henry Cook's birds are Higgins based. He gave up his birds several years ago and went to Higgins,
Nick Siders
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Ballrollers
1038 posts
Feb 18, 2008
7:04 AM
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Nick,
I'm not sure when Jay brought in the birds from Henry, but it has been awhile. The sideline that I have of this outcross is from a cock that is half Turner/half Cook from Jay's kit that one the NBRC Fall Fly in 2003. Ron Duncan, who judged it, selected this bird as his personal choice for best speed, quality, depth, and work rate. Over the past couple of years I have been working on taking this cock back to the "pure" Cook side and back to the "pure" Turner side to evaluate the performance of the offspring...but it takes time to fly everything out and know what you've gotten.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Feb 18, 2008 7:05 AM
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nicksiders
2579 posts
Feb 18, 2008
7:15 AM
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I have screwed my birds up so badly I am thinking Higgins and start over again. I have a "project" going on now and if I can't make that work I think I will go see Jerry(LOL). "Pure" Higgins sounds better than the "pure" Junk I have progressed to. It is all on me.
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Ballrollers
1039 posts
Feb 18, 2008
7:27 AM
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George,
I agree with you. They are holding their own and winning. In talking with many of the top flyers in the country, I find it interesting that many of them have Turner birds in their lofts....from Joe Roe and Jim Sherwood in Ohio, Randy Gibson in California, Alex Hamilton in Texas, and of course Charlie Stack, Joe Bob Stuka, Clay Hoyle, and Jay Yandle, as well as many others in the North, South, East and West. I feel fairly certain that so many of our top flyers cannot be wrong in their evaluation of quality performance when they see it......And there are hundreds of lofts of lesser-known flyers accross the country have brought them in. Many kept it a "secret" for many years to avoid the criticism heaped on these flyers from the "purist" camp who were ruthless in their criticism and profound in their ignorance about the family. Some are keeping them "pure", some are using them as an outcross to bring some heat into their families that have gotten stiff.....just like roller men do with any other family in which they have observed quality performance. I doubt most roller men will ever change in that regard. Today, men who are committed to qualilty performance don't care about the color of the feathers anymore. LOL! When one sees a good bird, there is always the temptation to start a side-line outcross with one's base family, to see what happens. That's part of the allure of flying rollers, as it has been for a hundred years or more, and probably what is responsible for the development of the breed to begin with. For any flyer to attempt to establish the family he is currently working with is "pure" at some given point in time along the way, is laughable as far as I am concerned.....
Cliff
Last Edited by on Feb 18, 2008 7:31 AM
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George R.
193 posts
Feb 18, 2008
7:52 AM
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I agree Cliff, You forgot about Dave Strait, he won his region two years in a row and finished 10th in the nation in the Fall Fly Finals with his TURNER birds.
I will admit I had my doughts about color Birds at First BUT not ANYMORE
Last Edited by on Feb 18, 2008 7:54 AM
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birdman
487 posts
Feb 18, 2008
8:01 AM
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George,
You should seriously consider breeding some youngsters from that Turner pair that I gave your son and flying them with your kits. You might get a big surprise. That hen was nicknamed 'greased lightning' for a reason. The cock was a good one too!
Russ
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George R.
194 posts
Feb 18, 2008
8:03 AM
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We will Birdman, Thanks for the pair they are awesome !!
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birdman
488 posts
Feb 18, 2008
8:08 AM
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Nick, I knew you'd eventually come around...lol
I'll hold on to that extra 'Black Elvis' pair just in case you change your mind and want to borrow them.
Russ
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Scott
49 posts
Feb 18, 2008
8:25 AM
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"But the birds in my holdover competition kit are straight Turners...nothing added to "regain stability". LOL! The primary fault with the Turner/South Carolina family, that I have seen so far, is that variable depth rollers are few and far between. Most of them are very fast, but will roll one depth, no matter how high they are, especially during preparation for competitions, and you loose some excellent performers. That has led a few guys like Scott and Nick, who are unfamiliar with working with this family and looking for a fault to criticize, to incorrectly conclude that there must be major stability issues,"
No stability issues ?????? I'm a little confused ? JoeBob claimed 60 0/0 rolldown with the originals, and is why he crossed.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Ballrollers
1040 posts
Feb 18, 2008
9:51 AM
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Well Scott, all I can tell you is that he never revealed that dirty little secret to me in the many hours we have spent disucssing his outcrossing. He told me that his first outcross was to a Jaconette for slower wing speed, but he went back to the Turners for speed and quality. Then he outcrossed to a Baker line for a different wing position during the roll. Then back to the Turners for speed and frequency.
The point is that with my birds, they seem plenty stable enough for me. I have straight Turners from Jay and from James Turner. If I pushed them over their limit maybe I would start to see problems, but then again that would be a handler error. Maybe that's what happened with Joe. Some of my birds are from Joe Bob and maybe he improved them to the point I see fewer rolldowns than you say he had. But isn't that the point.....to improve on what we started with?
YITS,
Cliff
Last Edited by on Feb 18, 2008 9:52 AM
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Ballrollers
1041 posts
Feb 18, 2008
10:01 AM
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George/List,
The "Turner" family is just "ONE" of many Pensom based family of rollers that have proven themselves in lofts across the country. I personally believe that worrying about color or distant ancestry in a performance-oriented fancy is without merit; and most critisms are grounded more in ignorance and rumor than fact. Each and every family of rollers is no better than the men who fly them and their worth is documented in the fly records. I also believe that each of us needs to find a family of birds that "works" for us. By that, each of us flys in a different way, breeds in a different way, encounters different atmospheric conditions and geography, have more or less problems with the sky distractions, etc. No one family of birds is right for every man.........Everyone has his opinion. I have mine, Scott has his. I'll just let the birds in this family keep right on doin' the talkin'.
YITS,
Cliff
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Scott
50 posts
Feb 18, 2008
10:38 AM
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"But isn't that the point.....to improve on what we started with?
YITS,
Cliff "
Absolutly Cliff !
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Lipper
GOLD MEMBER
443 posts
Mar 16, 2009
10:54 AM
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Mike Trevis
The Bigger the Dream the Bigger the Leap
..........
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Sunflower
GOLD MEMBER
352 posts
Mar 16, 2009
11:24 AM
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Mike,
Why are you bringing this old crap up again. Are trying to rekindle the color argument or do you have another agenda? WC is coming up soon, let the argument be settled then. The sides in this old argument are so polarized that all it does is confuse the new guys. Fly what you want, breed what you want, call it what it is!!
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
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Lipper
GOLD MEMBER
445 posts
Mar 16, 2009
11:36 AM
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Mike Trevis
The Bigger the Dream the Bigger the Leap
Hey Joe, I happen to have a couple Turners..I notice everything has to have an "Agenda" with some of you? Would you rather I post about pigeons hatching chicken eggs, my t*******s, what Joe? Please inform me what should and should not be posted.....
Mike,
Why are you bringing this old crap up again. Are trying to rekindle the color argument or do you have another agenda? WC is coming up soon, let the argument be settled then. The sides in this old argument are so polarized that all it does is confuse the new guys. Fly what you want, breed what you want, call it what it is!!
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
Last Edited by on Mar 16, 2009 1:59 PM
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Pumpkin Man
70 posts
Mar 16, 2009
1:11 PM
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Cliff,
I apprecited the great hospitality you guys showed when you all hosted the convention a couple years back. I really didn't know anyone there before hand but had a great time. had a great time listening to stories on the bus by Frank Lavin and others too. I remember you and Randy Gibson getting into a bidding war over the best futurity bird flown. I think it was an indigo bred by Charlie Stack I think. It was pretty neat to see Gibson give you the bird after he was the winning bidder. Seems like that bird was a turner bird. It was very impressive in the air. Did it produce for you.
-Billy Holleran (Lexington, KY)
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PR_rollers
GOLD MEMBER
2706 posts
Mar 16, 2009
1:14 PM
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Mike do you wanna get ban >no testicles please..lol..
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Ralph.
miss opportunity are the curse of potential well if opportunity is not knocking you build the door...
Last Edited by on Mar 16, 2009 1:15 PM
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Sunflower
GOLD MEMBER
353 posts
Mar 16, 2009
1:37 PM
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Mike,
You have a couple of Turners. Lots of us do but we don't need year old color arguments brought back up. Serves no purpose unless you are trying to perpetuate the argument.
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
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Lipper
GOLD MEMBER
446 posts
Mar 16, 2009
2:00 PM
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Mike Trevis
The Bigger the Dream the Bigger the Leap
I fixed it Ralph...
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Lipper
GOLD MEMBER
447 posts
Mar 16, 2009
2:05 PM
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Mike Trevis
The Bigger the Dream the Bigger the Leap
Hey Joe, I really dont care what you have in your loft..I dont care if your hiding some so called "indigo project" in your garage or what you do..If you dont like a subject or thread go to another..I dont know about everyone else here, but I am not here to coddle to your whims or your way of thinking..The matter of fact truth is that the best bird in my kit for the WC is going to make it to this thread, whether she is still the best or not at the time..Complete with picture..
Mike,
You have a couple of Turners. Lots of us do but we don't need year old color arguments brought back up. Serves no purpose unless you are trying to perpetuate the argument.
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
Last Edited by on Mar 16, 2009 2:13 PM
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Sunflower
GOLD MEMBER
354 posts
Mar 16, 2009
2:21 PM
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Mike,
I'm not hiding anything in my garage but an old vintage Corvette. Not sure why you have such a burr under your saddle. Any time I see BS posted I will call you on it buddy, you can count on that. Trying to perpetuate this argument is just that, so take that to your lab and study it for a while. This thread and the other one you brought back up today are just taunts to get the purists riled up again.
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
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Lipper
GOLD MEMBER
448 posts
Mar 16, 2009
2:26 PM
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Mike Trevis
The Bigger the Dream the Bigger the Leap
Oh OK Joe...
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Sunflower
GOLD MEMBER
356 posts
Mar 16, 2009
2:28 PM
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Mike,
I'm through. You wore me down, raise the argument again, it is so helpful for everyone.
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
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Ty Coleman
585 posts
Mar 16, 2009
3:15 PM
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Any time you get Scott and Cliff to agree on something, call it a good day and walk away,lol
Scott
50 posts
Feb 18, 2008
10:38 AM "But isn't that the point.....to improve on what we started with?
YITS,
Cliff "
Absolutly Cliff !
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Ty
Vapor Trail Lofts
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PR_rollers
GOLD MEMBER
2707 posts
Mar 16, 2009
3:33 PM
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lol @ TY you can say that again ----------
Ralph.
miss opportunity are the curse of potential well if opportunity is not knocking you build the door...
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Sunflower
GOLD MEMBER
358 posts
Mar 16, 2009
3:51 PM
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Ty,
Look at the date, it was over a year ago. Not sure they have agreed on much since. LMAO
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Keep em Spinning
Joe
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