COYOTE33
52 posts
Feb 19, 2008
8:45 AM
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It seems that everone has a strain of both the pensoms or the plona's with a touch of smith. whats the difference in the three or two and their characteristics, give me your observation.
coyote
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3757
639 posts
Feb 19, 2008
8:58 AM
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Darryl - Technically, if you were to base it on Pedigree’s they all go back to 463/1613, 699, 743 etc. Bill started over with birds from Plona and Smith but took them a different direction as far as phenotype wise. If you were to look at 514’s correct pedigree you will see that she is a Smith bird as well as the majority of Bill’s stock which went back to Smith or Plona. But, if you were to look at the Bills birds’ phenotype down the road you would see a difference. That is why all of the other old timers always stated that Smith or Plona birds are the ones to cross back into Bill’s stock if you needed a cross. It had nothing to do with Pedigree at all because if you were to look at a 5 generation pedigree you may not find common ancestors until the last line but the engines were pretty much the same do to the close association of the three. The Smith birds were heavy grouse legged and to me was a little more feathery than Bills birds. The Plona’s had more of a long cast build the ones that I have seen but there are guys online that still raise the Plona’s that could give a better description.
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COYOTE33
54 posts
Feb 19, 2008
12:59 PM
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LD, so are you saying that geneticially so to speak, pensom went in another direction from plona and smith?
coyote33
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JMUrbon
378 posts
Feb 19, 2008
1:09 PM
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I dont believe any of the birds out there today are Penson or Plona or Smith. There ancestors are but everything out there these days has been bred different than either of these three men bred. Any credit for the birds of today go to the breeders of TODAY. I say that with no disrespect to these great breeders but instead with great respect for some of the breeders of today. A guy can screw up a line of birds faster than he can build a good one. Understanding your birds and knowing the direction you wish to go with them is the best training a breeder can have towards his birds. You can take birds from all different families and build a great family of birds if you understand the birds and their traits ( Good and Bad ).
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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COYOTE33
55 posts
Feb 19, 2008
1:50 PM
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I DO AGREE WITH TO SOME EXTENT JM, BUT YOU WOULD HAVE TO AGREE THAT SOME OF THE TRAITS YOU HAVE COME FROM SOME FAMILY BACK GROUND AND IF SOME OF YOUR ANCESTOR'S WERE STILL ALIVE THEY WOULD PROBABLY SAY YOU REMIND THEM OR YOU GREAT GREAT GRANDFATHER, RIGHT! SORRY FOR THE CAPITAL LETTERS :)
COYOTE
Last Edited by on Feb 19, 2008 1:52 PM
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JMUrbon
380 posts
Feb 19, 2008
2:04 PM
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If you look at it that way you are correct but none of my ancestors produced youngsters with different spouses every year for 10 + years. at least I hope they didnt.LOL. what I am saying is each breeder tends to breed toward traits that he/she likes in a bird and none of us have Bill Pensoms eyes or Stan Plonas eyes. There are guys out there that have stricktly bred from pedigree for many years and there birds probably do resemble Pensoms or Plonas birds more closely than those that havn't but we will never no that and can only speculate at this time. Joe Urbon
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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3757
640 posts
Feb 19, 2008
2:12 PM
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Jim - There are certain strains that still have a particular look or certain characteristics. For example, I have seen a number of Monty's birds in different lofts and they still look alike even though the birds were bred by someone else. I sent Bruce Cooper some photo’s today of some birds that are 3 and 4 generations bred by myself and he said that they look like the birds he breeds. So, there can be a lot of similarities if one has not out crossed that will remain the same. . This is true in many other strains and I think this is what Darrell is speaking of. Secondly, I have handled birds bred by Bill, Smith and Plona and I still see some of the characteristics and phenotypes in the individuals who keep their progeny. I agree with you that a person can go in a totalling different directions but they could also keep the phenotype close to the originals. It just depends.
Last Edited by on Feb 19, 2008 2:18 PM
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Scott
54 posts
Feb 19, 2008
3:38 PM
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Joe I agree 100 0/0 ,the more generations you pull away the more you change them, for one the genetic pool is vast regardless of how tight they are.
If you are on the right path you are going to be honing around a few key birds, and the family will start carrying both the physical and mental traits of those few birds,
I can see the difference within my own birds and Kennys and I've pulled my lines down into 4-5 generations away,it is subtle but it is there.
Now if you have many and don't hone around anything then I can see it running much closer to the original "longer" ,but the same , no way, selection good or bad is going to dictate.
That is why I get a good chuckle bring up 514 this and that, if what is important to you isn't in your own loft but 514 is 40 years or so later, you don't understand these birds and you are missing out bigtime.
Scott
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Feb 19, 2008 3:53 PM
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JMUrbon
382 posts
Feb 19, 2008
4:33 PM
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Understand and agree entirely Scott. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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0016
45 posts
Feb 19, 2008
4:41 PM
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What year was that? again.
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CSRA
1399 posts
Feb 19, 2008
4:52 PM
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LOL
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3757
641 posts
Feb 19, 2008
5:18 PM
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I noticed that know one has talked about their handling of the birds bred by Bill or Stan and has not said anything about the differences as Darryl asked. There are guys on this forum that has handled these birds also. Harry can you give your input? Ron, can you share your experience with the Smith cocks that you owned? Paul, I know you also had birds bred by Bill directly and my friend Mr. R. you also had some birds bred by Stan. There are others who also can give some feedback to you Darryl. It would be nice to hear from all of you since some of the fanciers have never handled the old birds and want to take Darryls question in a different direction than intended.
Last Edited by on Feb 19, 2008 5:23 PM
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George R.
202 posts
Feb 19, 2008
6:08 PM
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Scott and Joe
I agree with you guys,on a previous post thats exactly what I was trying to say.
when I use to train racehorses I would get some wealthy horse owners who PAID big Bucks for there horses just because they were related to Champions ( FANCY PEDIGREES )
After training there Horse and realizing the Horse was to slow for the Santa Anita ,Holywood Park ,Del Mar Circuit,
I would tell them there horses couldnt RUN (beat a Fat man with boots on in the Mud lol) They would go ballistic.
I would then suggest we geld the Colts and they would say OHH NO I want to keep him a stud and breed him he's related to Seatle Slew ETC.
I would tell them but he cant run why would you want more like HIM ?
Any way Like I used to tell people when they asked me who the horse was by (SIRE) ,I would tell them by HIMSELF. The horse gotta prove his worth on the TRACK.
Thats the same way I treat every squeeker ,I dont care who the Father and Mother or ancesters ARE he still gotta prove his own worth in the AIR.
Last Edited by on Feb 19, 2008 7:16 PM
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rollerman132
250 posts
Feb 19, 2008
7:01 PM
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I have a pure line of Plona birds, which are only two to three generations from his stock birds, and I have to agree with DR LD, the body type hasn’t changed much from the early 70s. Plona birds have a more solid feel to them, which give the impression of bigness. What my birds have in them, was locked in by Plona, all I ‘m doing is maintaining it. Smith birds are a lot like Plona Birds in type, but with muffs. If you have to be technical about it, I would say that Plona birds are Smith birds! Being that Plona got all his birds from Smith when he was still a live and the rest of them when Smith died. I’m proud of my birds and where they came from, so if some one cant deal with it get help.
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DeepSpinLofts
309 posts
Feb 19, 2008
7:01 PM
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I think that Pensom was just way ahead of his time. He set up satellite lofts with various breeders/flyers (Stanley Plona was one of them) and would drop by on occassion to discuss birds or simply take birds back to his lofts to breed.
Hmm....
In response to 3757, I've noticed that my family of Plona's come long cast and tippy toe in a few birds (Grizzles, Torts, Bars & Badges). These are often where I've found the strongest flyers and many times the deepest rollers. I've recently developed the shorter cast and stockier build on a few birds that roll faster and shorter in distance... keep in mind that these rollers tend to be along the cheques in plumage.
Line-breeding is important if you want to have good birds. Plona and Pensom were master craftsman at breeding. Pensom knew how to line breed good aerial performers and keep several lines separate even though maintaining a distinct line of roller pigeons, but to him they were all separate... and this is undeniably the case as I have discovered from visiting different guys/gals lofts in the northern & southern regions of Calif.
I've seen Keith London's birds in the air once while visiting Southern California and noticed that they were pretty good performers. I'm quite sure Pensom, Smith, Plona, Houghton, McCully, Hilton, Whittingham and many other old-timers would have appreciated watching the London family of performers just as much as I did that day. I think most of the roller breeders/flyers in the Pensom-Whittingham era were focused on style, depth and pure athleticism like many of the roller folks today.
I would like to follow up on what COYOTE33 said above:
>>>>YOU WOULD HAVE TO AGREE THAT SOME OF THE TRAITS YOU HAVE COME FROM SOME FAMILY BACK GROUND AND IF SOME OF YOUR ANCESTOR'S WERE STILL ALIVE THEY WOULD PROBABLY SAY YOU REMIND THEM OR YOU GREAT GREAT GRANDFATHER<<<<
...and
What Joe said later:
>>>>If you look at it that way you are correct but none of my ancestors produced youngsters with different spouses every year for 10 + years.<<<<
For the record: Humans have 64 chromosomes and a pigeon no less then 120, probably twice what humans have and that is why you can inbreed/linebreed certain birds in order to build a solid family of performing roller pigeons.
...however
You can have 3 great spinning hens or 3 fantastic cocks with the same Sire & Dam in which none would be exactly [100%] the same in the air as the parents. Several generations later it's conceivable that many birds down this line may come very close in performance/style to the 2 progenitors that orginally started this particular family of rolling pigeons. At least that's what I think is possible.
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
Last Edited by on Feb 22, 2008 6:32 AM
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JMUrbon
384 posts
Feb 19, 2008
7:26 PM
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Boy Marcus you must not know a joke when you see one. Surely you dont think I was serious about that post.
Your 120 chromosomes more states that the birds are really different 1 or 2 generations away from the original breeder.
I have been breeding the family I currently have for 19 years and I can recognise one of my birds in anybodies loft so what you are saying is true that they do carry forward certain traits but that is subject to change in as little as one season if a breeder breeds toward a different look that apeals more to him. Thats all I am saying. Joe Urbon
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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Scott
57 posts
Feb 19, 2008
7:37 PM
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LaRon, Pensom bred and sold ALOT of birds and not all were representative of his main family, yellows are a good example.
According to old Joe Borges Pensom bred some yellows because they sold well, Pensom had him cull a box of them for one reason or another and never let them into his main line.
George, I think what is behind the birds is important and part of their make-up , the problem is what you described with the horse and the thought of it having value strictly due to the pedigree instead of what it was bred for,and then times that by several generations and you have pure junk with a pretty pedigree.
Much of the old blood has been ruined due to such breeding practices along with the practice of stocking due to pedigree without flying hard to proove that it has the goods and the glue to handle it if it does.
My birds are hard core Pensoms, but 100 0/0 performance bred , as were they before my foundation hit my hands.
I have seen some pedigree breed this family, they go to shit within a couple of generations,no if ands or buts.
I have even seen some Peds on this site with birds that I had on my property at one time or another,they didn't work and were given back to the source,now they are called "foundation" due soley because of family back ground.
Like I've said in another post, I'm a flyer, I'm not going to blow smoke up any bodys ass with pedigree or birds that can shrink into little whisps of smoke.
But I use my good friend KGBs line and say that I breed and fly good honest Birmingham Rollers,no more and no less.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Feb 19, 2008 8:02 PM
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Scott
58 posts
Feb 19, 2008
7:39 PM
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Rollerman, if you are only off a couple of generations, all I can ask is why ?
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Feb 19, 2008 7:41 PM
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rollerman132
251 posts
Feb 19, 2008
8:07 PM
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Scott
I breed on a small scale; I can’t stock every thing I breed, what would I fly? The last time I stocked a bird was in 2004, which would still make it five generations away, I wonder if I can still call them Plona birds hum… LOL
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Scott
63 posts
Feb 19, 2008
8:27 PM
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I also breed in a very small circle, but I'm allways looking to pull ahead in percentages of quality birds, and that can only be done by flying hard and selection of the right birds out of the air.
If you aren't flying hard and stocking,you can't move forward,it is as simple as that.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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rollerman132
252 posts
Feb 19, 2008
9:10 PM
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The best birds go in to my hold over kit, and stay there till I need to replace a stock bird. I don’t see anything wrong in keeping a ten-year-old stock bird, as long as it produces, what I want. If it’s not broken why replace it? lol
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Shadow
85 posts
Feb 20, 2008
1:10 AM
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First post from JMUrbon should be carved in stone,its bang on, remember these are working creatures,and in successive generations they are bred mostly for their ability,with this in mind then,its physical appearance can be subject to much change,with the introduction of an outside cross, as it was when Mr Penson and Mr Plona were doing it,if you were to stay within any one of those families for say forty years,in all probability,their rolling ability would have diminished due to richness of their blood,likewise if you wished,you might in the same period of time have an absolutely different type incapable of rolling if you were to take that direction,this I think is wher and why credit has to be given to each and every one of flyers who have advanced the rollers ability by cultivating his birds,his way,striving for the same goals the aforementioned people did,but today the bar is set much higher,my opinion, due to modern day flyers this is basic eveloution in motion,give the utmost respect to yesteryears flyers by all means,its important to know where we have come from,to understand where we wish to go,but its not really at all that relevent to get too hung up on what is basically history,much better to look to the future,whos to say the Show roller of to day doesnt carry some Penson and Plona blood,because thats the direction they were taken.
Last Edited by on Feb 20, 2008 1:13 AM
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DeepSpinLofts
310 posts
Feb 20, 2008
3:02 AM
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Good morning Joe....
I knew you were simply explaining things to COYOTE33 in a courteous way... as a matter of fact... I thought it was rather funny... he...he...he....
If you spent 19 years with your family of birds then I can certainly believe you can spot your birds in anyones loft... that is if you bred the birds yourself.
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
Last Edited by on Feb 20, 2008 3:09 AM
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3757
642 posts
Feb 20, 2008
3:59 AM
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Scott - Thanks and Joe is correct. I know a fellow who still has the yellows from Bill and I have most of the band numbers to the ones Bill had. There is more to that story than just Bill and I have a chapter written about it. Howard McCully was a die hard fanatic against yellows and whoever kept them.
Last Edited by on Feb 20, 2008 6:16 AM
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COYOTE33
56 posts
Feb 20, 2008
6:38 AM
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fella's!
i really appreciated your post and the comments that were
suggested and for the most part we are on the same line of thinking. However there are two known factors that separate
the two birds and you should notice this in your family of birds.It is well known that pensom breed a later developing bird, birds that came in 12-18 months. if you have a pensom family and it has this character it is more likely closer to pensom birds rather than the other side. that is a major difference. Rollerman made a good point and it is a fact, the plona side is more of a solid bird heavy bone, which makes it seem longer or larger, that is a major difference. I have both sides pensom and plona's and i can see the difference myself. could it be that pensom went to plona to maintain the strenght in his family?
coyote
Last Edited by on Feb 20, 2008 6:40 AM
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DeepSpinLofts
311 posts
Feb 20, 2008
7:27 AM
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Hmm....
Now that's somewhat interesting 3757.
You stated:
>>>I know a fellow who still has the yellows from Bill and I have most of the band numbers to the ones Bill had.<<<
QUESTION: Today are these yellow Pensoms you speak of... show rollers or are they performance bred top notch spinners?
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
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3757
644 posts
Feb 20, 2008
7:42 AM
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Marcus - Bill Pensom caca canned the yellows and were no longer in the family that he had when he died and I do not consider them Pensom rollers but yellows. The fellow I know received the birds when they were caca canned and they are still around. I do not care for Yellows but they still perform if that is what you are asking. Not sure? High velocity (not) but they roll. Doug Thorley had some also at one time. Just because Bill had them in his possession does not mean they were part of his family of birds. He had competition rollers and all sorts of birds but his family was another story. Bob Evans also had yellows and there are all sorts of bs stories about that as well. Marcus, the only yellows that I have seen that can spin with high velocity are the ones that Richard Luna has. These also came from the ones that Bill had.
Last Edited by on Feb 20, 2008 8:31 AM
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JMUrbon
385 posts
Feb 20, 2008
7:52 AM
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3757, If I may ask you then why is it that every other bird Bill Pensom pinched from the likes of Plona and Smith now become Pensom birds as soon as he posessed them but the yellows were never his even though he posessed them. Just a thought. Joe Urbon
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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3757
645 posts
Feb 20, 2008
8:30 AM
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Jim - You have a particular family you are working with correct? If you get a pair from me and breed a round and keep the birds a year and get rid of them was that your family? Of course not! Hypothetically, if you received your birds from Henderson and have been breeding them for years and call them your family you cannot say that the one round you bred off of mine were your family of birds. Maybe 5 years down you may use another bird from Henderson back into your birds. Bill started back when he came to America with birds from Smith and Plona and created his family (Which he already consider his family since they were down from his 463/1613, 743 and others that he sent here). He used birds from Smith and Plona through the years also which he did not consider an outcross since they were all closely related. As for the yellows and the ocmpetition tumblers etc. Bill Pensom stated, "I have used many birds through the years but I did not keep some of them long enough to know what they were capable of." Those birds did not go into his line. In my book I give more details about what was Bills line because it goes deeper than just getting the bird from Smith or Plona. If you like the history you will enjoy it when released.
Last Edited by on Feb 20, 2008 8:36 AM
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DeepSpinLofts
317 posts
Feb 21, 2008
6:56 AM
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Good morning 3757
Excuse me for interrupting your conversation with Joe; but are you actually writing a book on rolling pigeons?
If so... when do you plan to release it?
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
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119
5 posts
Feb 21, 2008
8:03 AM
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Coyote, ALL the birds of Plona & Smith were Pensoms,Period, Plona as a youngster was given rollers mostly the dark checks,because some of the guys liked the loud colors better,like Perkins& Smith Many of those birds carried the famous 699 x 743 blood so Stan was sittin on a mountain of blood, Smith,as a breeder, mated his birds by performance,regardless of size,color,eye,..His birds became a little larger, in time, but 'pure pensom'SO basically ,THEY WERE ALL PENSOM ROLLERS....This is the answer to your question..Harry
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kcfirl
308 posts
Feb 21, 2008
9:11 AM
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to my understanding of the Pensom pigeons, they were less of a true family than any of the top flyers I kow today. It seems he just picked the best birds he could find from his buddies in England and bred them together. I see more variationi in body type and color, etc. in his birdfs in the book that leads me to believe he did not really have a family.
More like he had several "click" pairs that produced birds that other guys used to start true families.
Ken firl
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119
6 posts
Feb 21, 2008
11:45 AM
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Ken, The pictures in the book were not all Bills birds, They were all Pensom, but bred by other fanciers,and of course you will have variations in color an size,you speak of Bills gathering his buddys birds and came here to USA ?I can tell you ,no one gave him their Best Birds thats for shure...It sounds like he didnt have his own birds before he came here, I can assure you WORLD FAMOUS 514,119,3757,3738,7001,1232,and many many more,they just didnt ;fall out of the sky; WM.PENSOM bred these champions,to give us what we have todayI am just trying to tell you what he did, and what he accomplished,and you have the right to believe what you wish..I just wanted you to have food for thought "...Harry
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3757
655 posts
Feb 21, 2008
2:02 PM
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Ken - The majority of the birds in Bills book were not bred by him. There were a few in the book bred by Bill and they are uniform.
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7001
49 posts
Feb 21, 2008
4:32 PM
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119,
good point.My understanding is that when Bill came to the U.S, in the 40's, he stood at J.L Smith's house.Also
bringing the birds that he collected or picked out from
Richards,Bellfield, and Skidmore, creating the family
we know as the Pensom line.From there then they started
to get into other fanciers hands.that's how they are
similar.
3757 is there any truth to that my brother?
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JMUrbon
386 posts
Feb 21, 2008
4:44 PM
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Thanks for the information 3757. I really am not a Pensom follower but do give him credit for what he did with his birds at the time. I also give credit to the fanciers now days for what they have done for the breed because I have witnessed it. Its easier for you to give him all the credit you do because of personal history but for myself I really never followed him or idolized him but I do admire you knowledge of him and his birds. Joe Urbon
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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3757
658 posts
Feb 21, 2008
7:08 PM
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Thanks Jim for the compliment.
7001 - That is how Bill started and there was a bird here or there from Bert Goode /Thompson brothers etc. Here in the states most individuals in the 40's got them from Smith, Plona, Perkins, Walker or Father Schlattmann originally.
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COYOTE33
57 posts
Feb 21, 2008
7:53 PM
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HEY! THANKS 119
Your input is well taken. basically they are all pensom birds in the hands of other breeders or we can say there are different sides of the pensom family. In my observation of the family i think the stronger side of the family is the plona- smith side and thats because i've handle both sides. base on what you said 119, about smith and plona this seems to be true. Im not knocking either side, its just a observation and i wonder if anyone else came to the same conclusion. if you have the opportunity to handle pure plona's and pure pensom's judge for yourself, or should i say both sides of the pensom family.
The pensom side as some of you mention is the 514 3757 3738 119 and so on. the smith side would be 18313,18312 9658 9648 and the plona's 3803 14686 14687 7917and so on but all pensom
coyote
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George R.
221 posts
Feb 21, 2008
8:06 PM
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Can some clear this up for me ? will all the birds be considered Pensom (FOREVER)even though Pensom did not put the pairs together that maid the current birds ?
Also why cant the Birds be Richards or any of the old time Breeders that Pensom got them form himself in the old Black country.
At what piont if EVER can a person suy that the Birds are thier FAMILY and not someones elses?
And dont think I am disrespecting Pensom in any way I would never throw mud on anyones grave thats not my style.
This is is a Honest question.
Last Edited by on Feb 21, 2008 8:12 PM
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3757
660 posts
Feb 21, 2008
8:51 PM
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When the PRC was formed in the 1940's all of the breeders got together and with the go ahead from Bill Pensom called these new imports Pensom rollers that traced back to the birds that were imported here from Bill Pensom by Father Schlattman, Walker, Smith and others from Pensom’s loft in England. Many of the birds were actually bred by Skidmore, Baker, Ard Richards (Bill Richards’s brother) or Bellfield In the 1940's, 50's, 60’s, 70’s and most of the 1980's they kept the same name. Fireballs are still called Fireballs as well and that has been almost 70 years since that strain was created. Bill on the other hand did call his line Richards or Bellfield and he distinguished them as such. Even the 1965 importations from Ollie Harris were called Bellfield line by Bill though they were bred by Ollie for quite a few generations. I still call gas stations filling stations because that is what I called them for most of my youth and young adult hood. I have even heard some older people call a refrigerator an Ice box and it is still heard today. The old timers did not care about putting their name in lights at all. Some have used the name Pensom in a bad light to make sales and you will always have people using it wrongly and this has put a damper on those of us who hold true to the teachings of the man that is the king in my book and that is Bill Pensom.
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Scott
75 posts
Feb 21, 2008
10:04 PM
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LaRon , I agree with you where Pensom in concerned, most can't understand his "depth" with this breed.
His book was nothing but the tip of the ice burg as far as his writings go, to get the full scope you must really have an accumalation of his writings.
Some things are written in later writings in a much more meaningful context than the message that he was trying to get accross in writings of prior years, and some things changed over the years.
McCully was really much clearer and in line with the same thoughts, I really enjoy his stuff.
With all that said, the birds originate from him and thats it, some lines are gargage, and some have been maintained even though they originate off the same branch, the key is still the foundation of his loft though, without that there is nothing without that original base.
But without proper selection through the years there is nothing either, the breeder that wrote that ped. on another thread is proof of that.
Personaly my enjoyment comes from pulling my family through generations with the sole purpose of maintaining the breed as a perforance breed to the highest standard that I can, and the goal is to do it in the highest percentages that I can, that is the hardest part.
Without Kenny Billings hard work, I would have nothing, and without proper selection I would end up with nothing.
I figured out quite a few years ago that there is no reason to ever bring another bird on to the property, and doing such would do harm than good, that is a point that everyone should strive for.
Although I do have a pair from Arnold Jackson to play with, they won't go into the family as there is no need,but I will see where they go on thier own
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Feb 21, 2008 10:08 PM
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COYOTE33
58 posts
Feb 21, 2008
10:21 PM
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i like your opinion scott,i wish we would all think on those same lines of reason.
coyote
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3757
662 posts
Feb 22, 2008
6:19 AM
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Scott - I wholeheartedly agree with you. Within my family if I were to use an outcross it would be from Herb or Bruce only and you would probably use one from Kenny if and only if it was needed. Your post was right on the money. You see the other bird you mentioned is not your family even though you may be doing some experiments with it and that is alright. Bill experimented a lot also but he did not cross them with his line. I know I have said it before but for the last 32 years I have bred my birds using individual pens. I am a little eccentric about this stuff.
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DeepSpinLofts
324 posts
Feb 22, 2008
6:43 AM
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Good morning Professor LaDouce...
QUESTION: Have you ever heard of a breeder and flyer of Birmingham Rolling Pigeons by the name of Andrew Kopp who lived in the state of Massachussetts???
The reason why I ask is because many of the roller men I grew up with in the Northern California Bay Area region used to order their birds from him. Some of those birds found their way into my loft when I was a teenager in the early 1980's.
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
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Scott
77 posts
Feb 22, 2008
6:44 AM
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Laron,the Jackson pair or any outside family that I may experment with never go into the main breeding loft,I have some outside ind. for that.
I could get anything I wanted from Kenny,we are good friends , but to be honest I wouldn't know what to do with it at this point.
My family is set up as two seperate lines , they tied in further up and are actualy line bred, but they are far enough down the line where I consider them out crosses
( learned this from kenny)
The stock is set up where there is never a reason to have to go outside of the loft for fresh blood, the goods are allready here, but like I stated in an earlier post the goal is to pull the goods out in higher percentages.
As for loft set up , my breeding loft is set up with ind. (22"x30" x 18" high)
In front of the Ind. is a 4'x8' fly pen with a sun cage out the window where they can also get bath,I also have an open loft with just nest boxes within the loft (4x4) for fosters
Personaly I can't stand the pairs locked down in them, omce the first round is laid they are opened up, 99.9 0/0 of the breeding are in their space (the ind.).
It works well,and the birds are healthier and happier, I would not trust true open loft with nest boxes though, but all the same I wouldn't trust an outside bird in the main loft either
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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119
7 posts
Feb 22, 2008
7:38 AM
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Scott,you speak of McCully writings,I am very interested in reading his works,Where may i acquire some of it??Thanks..Harry
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3757
663 posts
Feb 22, 2008
8:01 AM
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Yes – I do have some information on Andrew Kopp. He had some Pensom blood and a lot of it actually went back to Bob Evans and Stan Plona. However, Andrew Kopp did have other lines at his home all in open loft. Not a bid deal to some but to others it is. One thing that is definitely apparent is that Andrew Kopp birds could spin like heaven. He had some good spinners and that is what counts.
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George R.
226 posts
Feb 22, 2008
6:20 PM
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LaRon
you aint that old LOL I have a friend thats 83 and he knew Bill Pensom personally . He lived with him when he came over from across the pond and worked with him at the Hardware store.
I also have another friend thats 63 and my older friend (83)
calls him a YOUNG WHIPPER SNAPPER LOL
They live in Cali and I miss having lunch with them they are full of knowledge.
And guess what my friend thats 83 still Flys and Breeds Birds .
Last Edited by on Feb 22, 2008 6:29 PM
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Scott
96 posts
Feb 25, 2008
7:29 PM
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Harry, what I have was an accumilation of Pensoms writings along with stuff from Mc Cully that another fancier put together.
Basicly it is the same thoughts as Pensom as he lived next door but much more detail when it came to the context.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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kcfirl
317 posts
Feb 25, 2008
8:38 PM
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McCulley was simply a PEnsom Parrot. Very little original thought.
Firl
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