George R.
215 posts
Feb 21, 2008
7:20 PM
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Just wondering if anybody has ever heard of PEDIGREES that appear to have Discrepencys( wrong Info) on them .
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gabe454
301 posts
Feb 21, 2008
7:51 PM
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Hi george its me remember that guy that posted that andalusian that was suppose to be bob scott bird. in my pedigree it has a scott back ground but i went to hector coyas house and he acerted me that bird was no bob scott bird. the bad thing is that i forgot to take the pedigree with me but i belive hector coya, dont get me wrong that bird is awsome bird picked out of the sky but realy the paper work doesnt do the performing. it just made me think why would some one give this kind of false information.i bought the bird not because of the paper work because i saw the bird in the sky but the guy gave the paper work wasnt realy expecting any well this is my case.
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454
TRIPLE "G" LOFT
L.P.R.C
Last Edited by on Feb 21, 2008 8:02 PM
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George R.
222 posts
Feb 21, 2008
8:24 PM
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check out all the Champions in this birds back ground
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gabe454
303 posts
Feb 21, 2008
8:26 PM
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To be honest with you i realy dont know much about pedigrees i see the champions in the back ground.
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454
TRIPLE "G" LOFT
L.P.R.C
Last Edited by on Feb 21, 2008 8:27 PM
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Scott
73 posts
Feb 21, 2008
8:33 PM
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Oh you just had to post that, if only peds could fly LOL, it really isn't funny because many got burnt due to those peds and the birds sold behind them.
On the same note peds are nothing but past breeding records and I have them on all my birds, do I think they are 100 0/0 accurate ? I doubt it , but interesting all the same, up close they are essential, the further back they go the less meaning they have other than historical value.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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3757
659 posts
Feb 21, 2008
8:35 PM
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The word champion on a pedigree is very ambiguous and you should ask the breeder and find out what the heaven that means. Was the bird a champion performer, breeder, both, or a show winner? It really means nothing unless you know the family and have been flying the birds. Ask the breeder to explain what a champion is to them also because one mans champion may be another mans junk!
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gabe454
304 posts
Feb 21, 2008
8:44 PM
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To me pedigrees realy don't mean a thing now when i buy a bird i have to see it fly before i pay anykind of money.
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454
TRIPLE "G" LOFT
L.P.R.C
Last Edited by on Feb 23, 2008 6:32 PM
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Double R
255 posts
Feb 22, 2008
4:29 AM
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George,
If the Grandfather and Grandmother are missing on the pedigree, how could the Great Grandparents be on the pedigree or be known? (Incomplete Information)
Robby
Last Edited by on Feb 22, 2008 4:30 AM
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7001
50 posts
Feb 22, 2008
8:19 AM
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My opinion , peds are just a sciencetific way of breeding.
If the breeder really watched his birds like they say they do, they can write on the ped the birds characteristics.
Such as strong flyer, deep roller,etc..,this only helps
if you do not know or understand the family your getting.
Peds are only good to know how the bird was built and the
the person giving it is sincere and has integrity,I don't
want to slam anyone or say anything out of line,but some
of these threads I'm reading,sounds like some people got burnt.I use peds to lean on one side of the family tree
to concetrate on that line,but again peds don't roll' the
proof is in the pudding they can be a helpmate.
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Built4Speed
76 posts
Feb 22, 2008
8:33 AM
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I agree Ped's dont roll! The only Pedigree's I cherish are from Richard Rangel, His knowledge and breeding exprience of keeping things pure from Pensom to Scott, Leymeyer, Smith, and Saldana etc. are incredible and always interesting to look at to see how different birds were made.
Just my two cents
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Dale
SGVS
http://builtforspeedrollerlofts.bravehost.com/
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155
193 posts
Feb 22, 2008
4:04 PM
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My opion and I'm just keeping it really is that pedigree's don't mean a thing what is pedigree its not what make's a bird roll pedigree's are just for those pedigree fanatics.....I don't look for pedigree's when I'm pick birds out...To me picking a bird that ive seen more then once out of the sky is more valuable to me then some piece of paper........Evillofts...........
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Good Times Roll
15 posts
Feb 22, 2008
6:34 PM
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155 Do you keep records on the birds you breed? If so Why ?
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155
194 posts
Feb 23, 2008
8:01 AM
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I keep records on all my birds just to see witch pair will produce me good rollers then bad rollers it's just the update on my pairs thats all it is.....and I just keep it simple and I keep the best and get reid of the rest...What about your self? Maybe I might learn something from you.....
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Good Times Roll
16 posts
Feb 23, 2008
8:32 AM
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I am not going to try and teach you anything some people cant be taught,........but it sounds like you are starting to keep what is to be believed a pedigree on you birds, as several has mentioned earlier it is just a tool for so many generations and then the rest is histotry It can possably get you where you want a little faster with your birds, Some people seem just cause one has pedigrees on there birds they are pedigree breeders or fanatics lol maybe they just dont know how to use one
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3757
667 posts
Feb 23, 2008
8:46 AM
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Good times roll - That is true. I have come to the conclusion that many people want to find a way to discredit someone no matter what and they use the analogy like the one individual who sold a lot of birds and every bird he sold was a champion. That is so skewed. I know that you have done a lot of research like myself and understand that you need more than just a couple of samples to do a statistical analysis of something. Pedigrees can be a useful tool if used properly.
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155
195 posts
Feb 23, 2008
8:58 AM
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I miss understud you interpatation on pedigree I thought you were trying to say that pedigree was the history of a bird I guess I do keep pedigree's if that what breeding records are called.....Im not really worried were my birds come from 35 years ago cause I dont breed paper I breed rollers.....Maybe when your around the Arizona area you can come by and check my birds out as far as the teaching goes I think ive been tought okay...I keep it nice and simple...Evillofts.....
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DeepSpinLofts
326 posts
Feb 23, 2008
9:34 AM
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Good morning George...
Is that a pedigree to your family of rollers?
Quite an incredible ancestry of champions. Looks very impressive from a biogenetic point of view. My opinion is that it's definitely a good idea to scientifically breed from a solid gene pool of rolling pigeons.
...however
From strictly a peformance standpoint..., my thinking on these matters are somewhat along the lines of 7001 and Built4Speed in that pedigrees don't roll. Only in the air can we know exactly through good judgement just what the deal really is.
Why is that?
Because over the years, it has become aware to many of us that fellow breeders have turned to the show arena. Birds have become pudgy, blocky and stout. Their beauty has been enhanced by those who desire such things with aerial performance a non-important issue.
Not me! I'm strictly performance! Here at Deep Spin Lofts we live for the roll. Deep roll that is....
QUESTION: Where are the parents to White Self/Red Mottle Hen NPA-1974 Band #175? Strawberry Wine flavored Dam.
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
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George R.
230 posts
Feb 23, 2008
9:38 AM
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Marcus
no these are not my Birds lines, I bought that Bird years ago and he is on loan at this time as he has been for some years to different Guys that wanted to use Him.
if you want to be the next guy to use him let me know and I will send him to you so you can breed him
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gabe454
309 posts
Feb 23, 2008
6:31 PM
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George the pedigree of your bird is impressive this is your bloodline!
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454
TRIPLE "G" LOFT
L.P.R.C
Last Edited by on Feb 23, 2008 6:34 PM
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George R.
231 posts
Feb 23, 2008
7:09 PM
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No Gabe
My Birds are not from this bloodline
In all Honesty this Bird was Bred on 7 different Hens and ALWAYS bred some True Spinners 30footers to 80 footers and thats no LIE.
So I will not LIE and tell you that this bird is Garbage because he aint.
He has proved himself over and over again BUT I dont have room for him in My program But The Bird will always Belong to me even If I lend him out till the day he Dies .
Last Edited by on Feb 23, 2008 7:15 PM
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PR_rollers
563 posts
Feb 23, 2008
7:17 PM
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I wish i can find my old pedigrees i got from Dick. Is almost like yours champion in every corner.and mine were told that they were Champion in the air.now the birds i got from Dave H did they come with pedigrees nope, do i care, nope. let the birds i got do the talking if i like what i see i will ask where is this from so and so...I will keep my own records.
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Ralph....
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THC
5 posts
Feb 23, 2008
7:22 PM
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yes i have goerge
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DeepSpinLofts
327 posts
Feb 24, 2008
3:23 AM
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Good morning George....
After reading this I became elated with joy!
>>>"Marcus
"I bought that Bird years ago and he is on loan at this time as he has been for some years to different Guys that wanted to use Him. if you want to be the next guy to use him let me know and I will send him to you so you can breed him"<<<
Hmm....
Sure I would like to borrow that pre-potent bird some time for breeding purposes. A cock that has been bred on 7 different hens and always produced some "True Spinners 30-footers to 80-footers" is definitely something I'd like to try out in my loft.
....but
First let's work on those 2 squeakers off your best pair.
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
Last Edited by on Feb 24, 2008 3:24 AM
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nicksiders
2597 posts
Feb 25, 2008
2:56 PM
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I have had a long running experience with Stevens birds. Tom Hatcher was involved in all of his birds in the latter days....they are basicall Hatcher birds. I have several pedigres from both Stevens and Hatcher and it always amazed me how many are from "Champions" and how many of the birds are "once in a lifetime" birds. I will not say more. They only thing I will say is that I still have them and they make great fosters and a few will spin.
Nick Siders
Last Edited by on Feb 25, 2008 2:58 PM
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420
16 posts
Feb 26, 2008
10:53 AM
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hello nick i heard the bird's from stevehn's are big birds and the ones from hatcher was a lot smaller. thay say stevehn's pick the bird from the ground and not out of the air. i know a few guys that happen to.thay got bird's from him and thay was all big ones. thay used them for foster money gone. have a good one
Last Edited by on Feb 26, 2008 12:35 PM
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COYOTE33
62 posts
Feb 26, 2008
12:32 PM
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ITS OBVIOUS YOU TWO DONT KNOW HOW TO BREED BRIDS, YOU ARE WHAT I CALL HITLER BREEDERS YOU WANT EVERYTHING TO LOOK THE SAME. IN ANY FAMILY OF BIRDS THEIR ARE VARIATION. IF YOU HAD BIRDS FROM DICK YOU WOULD HAVE REALIZED THAT THEY DO HAVE A PLONA BACK GROUND AND AT TIMES THEY WILL COME LARGE BUT THAT DOESNT MEAN THEY WILL PRODUCE THAT WAY. IVE BOUGHT BIRDS FROM DICK SINCE 93 AND I RECEIVED ALL HIS BIRDS WHEN HE DIED AND YOU GUYS WANT TO PUT IT OUT THERE THAT ALL THESE BIRDS ARE BIG BIRDS, YOU PROABLY DONT KNOW A GOOD BIRD WHEN YOU SEE ONE. IF YOU ARE GOING TO POST SOMETHING POST IT WITH YOUR BRAIN NOT YOUR FEET. NEXT IM GOING TO POST SOME OF THESE SO CALL BIG BIRDS ON THIS SITE AND YOU TELL ME IF THEY ARE BIG.
COYOTE
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3757
674 posts
Feb 26, 2008
12:42 PM
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I think we need a group hug lmao !
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420
17 posts
Feb 26, 2008
12:52 PM
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it obvious that you like big birds. if you ever seen a small bird you will know what thay are talking about. but if are ues to breeding big bird's like the stevehn's bird's then that all a person know. you need to get out and see what a nice kit look like.of the right size bird's i think you will like the smaller and faster bird's. better.
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420
18 posts
Feb 26, 2008
12:53 PM
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im with you 3757 thank you
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COYOTE33
64 posts
Feb 26, 2008
1:01 PM
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SPELL CHECK YOUR POST NEXT TIME 420, A GOOD ROLLERMAN SHOULD BE SMART.
COYOTE
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420
19 posts
Feb 26, 2008
1:10 PM
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a good rollerman knows a good roller when he sees one!
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FlyingDutchman
7 posts
Feb 26, 2008
1:12 PM
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COYOTE ... I'm not so sure as to why you are so defensive about the fact that a few people feel Stephens birds are on the large size. I have seen many family of birds that resemble a continuity of traits rather it be overall size, beak length, etc. What fascinates me more and why I have followed this thread are the accusations of so many people that they were duped by this individual and paid good money for birds which were supposedly from "champion" lineage ... yet they could barely manage stringing more than one or two flips together. Guess I'd rather not make money off of selling a bird than to end up with this type of reputation in a hobby which I enjoy.
Last Edited by on Feb 26, 2008 1:16 PM
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420
20 posts
Feb 26, 2008
1:22 PM
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thank you very much flyingdutchman im with you sur have a good day
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Electric-man
1205 posts
Feb 26, 2008
1:25 PM
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SPELL CHECK YOUR POST NEXT TIME 420, A GOOD ROLLERMAN SHOULD BE SMART
Thats rude! And so is yelling!
Maybe you (coyote) should take your cap lock off! That constitutes yelling and we are just sharing opinions here! No need to get all worked up here!
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Val
"Site Moderator"
Last Edited by on Feb 26, 2008 1:28 PM
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PR_rollers
594 posts
Feb 26, 2008
1:35 PM
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what does bad spelling have anything to do with being a good rollerman, .knowing your birds don't have anything to do with spelling..
After reading all these post i say wow i thought i was the only one who lost money on these pedigree birds.. I feel better now ....
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Ralph....
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420
21 posts
Feb 26, 2008
1:39 PM
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thanks guys sorry for the bad spelling i was trying to do two thing at once. thanks again
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nicksiders
2601 posts
Feb 26, 2008
1:39 PM
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Coyote,
I have been around a while; I am not new. I am keeping my Stevens and Hatcher birds. The good ones I am getting are are fantastic. I am just not a fan to pedigres. There is too much room to error and a lot of people even lie.
I have noted that there are few people now days flying straight Stevens or Hatcher bords in competition and that may be telling us something......I don't know?
I like my highflying Continentals(LOL). They are quick little bastards(LOL)
I don't want to be a Hitler. I wanna be a FDR or a Churchil.
I wish I knew your name.
Nick Siders
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COYOTE33
65 posts
Feb 26, 2008
1:42 PM
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MR. DUTCHMAN WERE YOU EVER MAN ENUFF TO CALL DICK AND TELL
HIM YOU DIDNT LIKE SOMETHING YOU RECEIVE FROM HIM, CAUSE IM SURE HE WOULD OF GIVEN YOU YOUR MONEY BACK. IF IT WERE SOMETHING I DONT LIKE FROM DICK, BIG OR SMALL, I WAS MAN ENUFF TO TELL HIM, AFTHER ALL HE WAS JUST A MAN. WHEN YOU BUY SOMETHING FROM THE STORE AND IT DOESNT WORK, DO YOU KEEP IT,OR DO YOU TAKE IT BACK! OH! I KNOW ITS IN THE CLOSET. WHY YOU GUYS WANT TO BAD MOUTH A MAN WHEN HE IS DEAD AND YOU COULDNT TALK TO HIM WHEN HE WAS ALIVE. SO THE HUNDERDS OF GUYS THAT BOUGHT BIRDS FROM DICK ALL GOT BAD BIRDS, MAN YOU ARE CRAZY!
COYOTE
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COYOTE33
66 posts
Feb 26, 2008
1:47 PM
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SORRY FOR THE CAPS, im just tried of hearing the bs
coyote
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FlyingDutchman
8 posts
Feb 26, 2008
1:58 PM
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Coyote, I don't know what you mean by being man enough as I never purchased a bird from Mr. Stephens. I have just detected a common opinion evidenced by various threads on this site that many people were burned by these two individuals.
I myself have never had to "return" a bird in my life. I have purchased stock from only two roller men in 32 years and I saw the goods with my own eyes and never relied on a piece of paper to back up what one said. The proof was always there for me to see and I think doing your homework and purchasing stock from a "transparent" fancier is the only way to go. I would be embarrassed to ask for my money back on bird(s) purchased because it would have been a reflection on how well I researched them prior to purchase, and I can only imagine how they would have felt if approached and asked for a refund. I wasn't a math major in college but I know that buying rollers from someone who a) won't fly their birds and b) has pedigrees like the ones that have been posted on this site usually equals something that is too good to be true. Just my 2 cents.
Last Edited by on Feb 26, 2008 2:12 PM
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PR_rollers
595 posts
Feb 26, 2008
2:09 PM
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Coyote you just spell tire wrong dos that make you a good roller man. or me I just spell does wrong see,this is how 420 felt when you told him that .just want you to know.not being nasty or anything.
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Coyote i did talk to Dick ,no doubt he was a good man. he told me switch the pairs they come around well i did that for 5 yrs and nothing .when i thought it was me all the time i was going to quit. but i hang in there and cross them and some were coming out but flying high and stiff,he already had pass,so I couldn't let him know how it turn out.so the truth is somebody told me he wasm't flying his birds any longer back in 1999,so
i took the lost but the talk here is about the pedigree and all the champions it has.Bill Pemson had alot of Champion but he bred 400 birds a year he had 40 pairs of birds to do this.
but he flew his birds thats the difference..but I'm not bad mouthing MR Stephens .I talk to him many times..he had a good heart when i told him how my Father use to beat me for flying birds and how i took the streets he told that to a psychiatric friend of his and said that brought tears to his eyes ,he send me two more birds. same outcome though .but he meant well. he knows who i am..RIP....
Ralph....---------
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Last Edited by on Feb 26, 2008 2:10 PM
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COYOTE33
67 posts
Feb 26, 2008
2:55 PM
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The truth is PR, contrary to most beliefs, dick did fly his birds up until he was very sick and we use to talk about the kits he would fly and yes i heard people say the same thing, he never flew his birds. i never doubted dick's flying his kits and his wife and i have since discussed this subject. the proof however came when i received all his birds and his records. as he had indicated to me he would fly the first hatched out of his pairs and sell the rest. when i looked at his breeding records , he had actually highlighted every young bird that flew in that first kit and indicate how deep the bird was. he did this for himself and not for someone else and he didnt have to prove that to anybody. you guys are going on heresay what some body told you, that's what kills me.
and dutchman your going on what somebody told you. do we listen to every negative thing a person has to say and run with it or can you say something positive.
coyote
Last Edited by on Feb 26, 2008 2:58 PM
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420
22 posts
Feb 26, 2008
2:57 PM
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thanks you pr roller
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Electric-man
1207 posts
Feb 26, 2008
2:58 PM
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R.I.P. Mr Stephens!
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Val
"Site Moderator"
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PR_rollers
602 posts
Feb 26, 2008
6:20 PM
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Coyote ,I hear you.. I had that thought cross my mind too ,he probably was getting sick, and it looks like you knew him too.so you would know,I can understand how you feel in backing him up and I'm sure he is looking down now and smiling on you.
lets put this behind us and thanks for explaining your self.peace out.. .
Ralph....
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Steve S.
97 posts
Mar 08, 2009
4:14 PM
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Pedigrees are as honest as the men that wrote them down. LOL
Never to be reproduced.
Peds don't spin but If you start your own family and
put your name on them you will be carefull as what is on them.
Also If you make peds, a good Idea is to not only keep down the #'s and colors of the birds but also a history of how they performed, age they started to roll...spin and depth ,quality of roll and witnessed by a fellow rollerman,, thats a good Pedigree.
Steve
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Windjammer Loft
744 posts
Mar 11, 2009
7:22 AM
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For me, unless I know the guy personely or he has "really good" creditability. I don't give credit to any peds. Just my opinion
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Fly High and Roll On
Paul
Last Edited by on Mar 11, 2009 7:24 AM
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3757
1203 posts
Mar 11, 2009
8:16 AM
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"unless I know the guy personely"
Paul - This is where I am today and will only take a bird from a few individuals. A pedigree is meaningless unless you have some knowledge of the family or you bred the bird yourself. A guy could have a pedigree with a lot of historical famous birds and it would not mean a thing to me! They may be all culls! A pedigree should only have meaning to the breeder who is cultivating his or hers family of pigeons. There are a lot of people who have royalty in thier background that are pure caca heads and the same goes for birds.
Last Edited by on Mar 11, 2009 8:19 AM
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Longroller
GOLD MEMBER
178 posts
Mar 11, 2009
8:35 AM
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Two small pennys: A couple of months ago, I went 90 miles to the east to visit an aquaintance (since then a friend)..who has had Dick Stevens birds since the early 90's. This friend lives around no other flyers for many miles and basically flys for his own enjoyment. He told me they were Dick Stevens birds. Didnot do much for me. Then he showed me one of his two kits in the box..pointed to a couple of birds, and explained what they would do..turned the kit out..and friend..what a show. That day's weather was rough..low ceiling light mist...10 days later I did the same visit..nice day..good fellowship..we watched the second kit...perfect day for flying..He would kick some serious butt on competition day. His birds were small to medium depending on the line of the family. ALL rolled extremely well..tight, deep, H pattern..Then he pulled out his ped's at my request just to see what they were off of. Yep..written by Dick's hand. I brought two pair home, because they were excellent rollers..the ped's followed later for my records. Same old stuff..ped's are for relationship and record of performance. Bruce
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De Oppresso Liber
Last Edited by on Mar 11, 2009 8:37 AM
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3757
1204 posts
Mar 11, 2009
8:57 AM
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Bruce - That is why I for the life of me cannot understand why people make bold statements about other fanciers. Now, your experience was different from others so my comments would be the ones I had did such and such. Very interesting on each persons experience. But one thing I always say is pedigrees do not spin!
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