elopez
627 posts
Feb 28, 2008
10:14 AM
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I began thinking, with the increase of BOP this year do you guys think that Natural Selection will take place? Where the birds that make it longer will have some exceptional strength or ability maneuver away from the bop. Would this be a trait that would be passed on to the young?
On Sid's post "Your oldest kit bird" there were some older birds that have made it through seasons without getting caught, can you guys share what you've notice with these birds? (smaller? Larger? Strong? Performance?). Also how was their performance?
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Efren Lopez
SGVS
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sippi
72 posts
Feb 28, 2008
10:20 AM
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Efren it will definitely become a trait but the question is how long it will take to do so. My Orientals are several ounces larger than the BR's that I fly. They are quite adept at hawk evasion. I breed them from the air just as the BR's but for different reasons. Performance is first in both breeds but they have to fly through at least one full hawk migration before being stocked. I dont fly my BR's during the peak of migration. So unless you bred and flew against hawks regularly I dont think the trait is going to be ingrained anytime soon.
Sippi
Last Edited by on Feb 28, 2008 3:56 PM
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DeepSpinLofts
346 posts
Feb 28, 2008
12:32 PM
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Natural Selection?
Hmm.....
Efren brings up a very interesting topic here. What I think he's basically referring to is an adaptation of our birds to be more aware of predators within their environment. And during this awareness process, a highly superior strain of roller pigeon (traits) will have emerged by surviving through the trials and tribulations of BOP attacks. It is my firm belief that instincts and athleticism play a key role in a birds survival once they are out on the wing.
...however
Sippi makes a good point too.
He says: "So unless you bred and flew against hawks regularly I dont think the trait is going to be ingrained anytime soon."
If I'm not mistaken, the tumbling of pigeons evolved years and years ago (probably thousands of years ago) as an adaption to BOP attacks in Asia where these birds had originated.... hence the word "Tumbling Pigeon".
Birmingham Roller pigeons are a type of domesticated Tumbler pigeon descended from the Rock Dove. Our particular breed of birds have been selected for their ability to tumble or roll over backwards during flight. This tumbling ability have been known in domesticated breeds of pigeons for centuries.
NOTE: In Wendell Levis book "The Pigeon" reference is made of pigeons with this tumbling ability existing in India before the year 1590. Charles Darwin in his book "The Origin of Species" makes reference to the Short Faced Tumbler which was a popular breed during his lifetime, and still can be found exhibited at pigeon shows today. There are many different breeds that have descended from the original tumbler stocks. Some of the more popular breeds today include:
1) Australian Performing Tumbler
2) English Longface Clean Legged Tumbler
2) Birmingham Roller
3) English Short Face Tumbler
4) Iranian Highflying Tumbler
5) Oriental Roller
6) Komorner Tumbler
7) Tippler
In conclusion let me add that pain and bloodshed derives from the predatory adaptation. Often pigeons will observe their friends being attacked and mauled by BOP. Keep in mind that a pigeon can see 4x better than we can see, so when they scurry off to some hiding spot (a tree, under a roof eave, under a car.. or whatever) they keep a birds-eye view on what's going on with the BOP. Often a scared roller will lay low in hiding until the coast is clear.
Something I find rather important for the birds survival is communication. I've noticed that several of my birds make a certain grunt inside their pens when they look up at the sky and see a BOP or even a crow nearby. They will especially sound the alarm if the BOP or crow is perched up high on a nearby tree or pole. When I hear this certain recognizable pigeon grunt.... I will look up too.... and what do you` know.... it's usually a BOP that has caught the birds attention. I think roller pigeons are a lot smarter than we give'em credit for.
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
Last Edited by on Feb 28, 2008 3:03 PM
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maxspin
196 posts
Feb 28, 2008
1:35 PM
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Efren,
I believe that the characteristics that make a good roller, also make them targets for BOP.
We want our rollers to fly a slow figure 8 pattern, kit, stay over the loft, and roll. All of which make them targets.
We cull the birds that don't do this.
Natural Selection would favor birds that flew faster, ranged farther, rolled less…..
There is a reason that the older birds on my comp team have not made the breeder loft.
Keith
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Oldfart
500 posts
Feb 28, 2008
3:30 PM
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Marcus, You give an old mind a lot to think on! Great Post!
Thom
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kcfirl
330 posts
Feb 28, 2008
4:18 PM
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Marcus,
if rolling was an adaptation to escaping hawks, don't you think wild pigeons would be rolling?
I think a domestic pigeon rolled here and there by some genetic quirk and man took it an bred pigeons that are almost defenseless against hawks.
What do ya think?
Ken
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sippi
79 posts
Feb 28, 2008
4:26 PM
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Ken Orientals were the original rolling pigeons. They were bred to escape desert falcons for thousands of years. They are also the probable foundation to all rolling breeds of today. They were definitely the foundation for Birmingham rollers of today.
Sippi
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DeepSpinLofts
348 posts
Feb 28, 2008
5:11 PM
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Ken... I kid you not.
I was at my moms house last year and I saw a street pigeon do a flip right over her back yard. It was flying from the mall across the street.
....also
When I was around 11 years old. I saw a flock of street pigeons at Lake Merrit in Oakland, California take off to the air and recall a bird do a flip... or shall I saw a tumble. Definitely some kind of biogenetic trait in pigeons... similar to mental illness in humans.
Ken, if you spend all day just watching street pigeons... you might be fortunate enough to see one tumble in a rather clumsy fashion. Try San Francisco!
Oh yeah... here's something I remember. There were people in my old neighborhood near Travis Air Force Base in Fairfield that saw my rolling pigeons for the 1st time and said they are always looking up in the air at pigeons.... but never ever had seen a bird (pigeon) roll until I told them to look up at the kit.
As a matter of fact, I was out front on Dobe Lane when a lady said: "Excuse me sir, I often drive by on my way to take my kids to school and always see you looking up at the sky."
...then she goes on to say
"If you don't mind me asking; What in the world are you looking at up there"?
I pointed up to my kit and said see... look at them... look. Then I started blowing my whistle.
Then she said: "Your the one blowing that loud whistle every morning"?
Like a dummy... I said yep.
Never will do that again!
I got kicked out of that neighborhood behind my rolling pigeons. My new place is bigger and has more privacy.... but no whistles are hanging around my neck this time.
Talk to you later Ken...
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
Last Edited by on Feb 28, 2008 5:18 PM
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ezeedad
346 posts
Feb 28, 2008
5:27 PM
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I think that pigeons have already evolved instincts and abilities during the course of evolution that help them avoid the BOPs... But the young ones are always going to be easier to catch. Also the hard working rollers are easier to catch since spinning takes a lot of energy.
I agree that the way Birminghams are flown they are an easier target.. flying high and kitting..
Gomez
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kcfirl
331 posts
Feb 28, 2008
5:35 PM
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Hi Marcus,
I visited Lake Merritt many times as a boy with my "Oma" or gerrman grandmother. we would go to fairytale town and then eat lunch by the lake and I was always watching the birds!
I also spent a fair amount of time in Golden Gate Park where I was always feeding the pigeons and on the lookout for any with bands or unusual colors. Heh, heh, come to think of it, I still do this when I see wild birds.
I grew up in the East Bay and even lived in SF for a year as a very young child so I have seen a lot of wild pigeons!
I think that it is a high probably that any pigeon we may see "in the wild" that flips or rolls has some domesticate pigeon mixed in. We had a guy here locally that woudl box up his culls and drive 15 miles away from his house to a place where he knew a lot of wild pigeons go and let them go! I bet there was a hen or 2 that made it long enough to reproduce with a wild bird.
Regards,
Ken
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Santandercol
2057 posts
Feb 28, 2008
8:43 PM
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Efren,
I sure hope so.Just put one hen in the breeder loft with a cock I lost the mate for,and she was attacked MANY times but always came in unscathed.She spun too!!LOL.Imagine that.I'm hoping she passes her good trait of outflying them SOBs onto her offspring.
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Kel.
Rum-30 Lofts
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WaTtS UpP
338 posts
Feb 28, 2008
9:13 PM
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i am going to buy a blow horn so when that (Moderated) im thinking of making little vest for them so it could protect them from the b.o.p
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Watts uppp homeboy
Posting Policy:
Not Allowed,
comments or advice of any methods or tools designed to or intended to harass or discourage a protected bird from its normal habits.
Last Edited by on Feb 28, 2008 9:49 PM
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