THC
14 posts
Mar 04, 2008
4:37 PM
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sippi
94 posts
Mar 04, 2008
4:42 PM
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I want depth with style first and then frequency. I probably wont win a lot of comps, but I think the deeper the better as long as they can hold it together.
Sippi
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JMUrbon
389 posts
Mar 04, 2008
7:13 PM
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I think you will find that most guys that know what a true hard spinner is will always choose the style over the depth or the frequency. Of course I love a 30 footer that displays great style and speed and can pull it off and still keep up with a hard working kit.
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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elopez
678 posts
Mar 04, 2008
7:23 PM
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Style is a MUST! without style it not worth anything to me.
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Efren Lopez
SGVS
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CSRA
1433 posts
Mar 04, 2008
11:28 PM
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Style is first for me and if you keep working at it everything else will all line up good post you should have a 100 post already lol
Last Edited by on Mar 04, 2008 11:28 PM
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kcfirl
336 posts
Mar 04, 2008
11:32 PM
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Speed, style, depth, frequency, in that order. Any bird with spped and style with depth of 20 feet or more is a real treasure.
Ken Firl
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CSRA
1440 posts
Mar 04, 2008
11:41 PM
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KC speed not bad for first that style just just makes them so pretty lol
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RUDY..ZUPPPPP
1307 posts
Mar 05, 2008
4:11 AM
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(BOTH)
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RUDY PAYEN
PANCHO VILLA LOFT
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GREED FOR SPEED LOFT
461 posts
Mar 05, 2008
7:50 AM
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KC,,, NAILED IT,,, and nothing is better to see.Once you see the way,, why compromise and take seconds or thirds.
R-LUNA
WARNING: once you see the speed you may get addicted!
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fhtfire
1265 posts
Mar 05, 2008
8:18 AM
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I go for Style first..without style...nothing else matters....depth and speed...together...I want both..and then frequency.....but when they have all the abover...the final bow on the gift...is CONTROL>.....
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Andy_her
23 posts
Mar 05, 2008
10:07 AM
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I'm with kcfirl...
In my book everything else is easy to come by but style is like putting pretty into a roller...
BUT most of all speed and depth with control is #1 to me...
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Edgar
33 posts
Mar 05, 2008
12:15 PM
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To me if a bird aint fast,tight, and frequent its not a true champ you cant have one with out the other thats how I see it a bird thats fast tight and frequent is a bird with STYLE!!! on my books any day. edgar.
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119
9 posts
Mar 05, 2008
3:52 PM
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It absolutely amazes me how many of you guys said "Style" first,Now you know why Pensom, McCully,And others said;THERE WILL BE VERY FEW BIRDS WORTHY OF THE NAME { BIRMINGHAM } This has sparked a dissagreement amoung WC contenders, that claim they are not changing the BR. Which I find untrue. ALL the FAMOUS birds 514 119 etc. became FAMOUS because of their VELOSITY without it they would not have even been LOOKED at the second time,they also reproduced these traits,514 could spin so fast ,you waited for her to come apart, or something to fly off her,THESE are "BIRMINGHAM ROLLERS" THE key in my loft always has,,and will always be VELOSITY first,,,every thing else will fall in place, But I respect your right to breed your birds the way you want to.....Harry
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Edgar
36 posts
Mar 05, 2008
5:11 PM
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RIGHT!!RIGHT!! RIGHT!!
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fhtfire
1266 posts
Mar 05, 2008
6:17 PM
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I meant quality not style....if you don't have quality..nothing else matters...you can have a fast axle roller...and that sucks!!
rock and ROLL
Paul
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PR_rollers
641 posts
Mar 05, 2008
6:41 PM
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The question was >do you guys go for style before depth or frequency----------I'm pretty sure alot would like speed before anything but it wasn't in the choices. speed with style is the ultimate.depth i can tweek with the feed a little and get that..but speed and style better be in your breeding program as number one.but kitting ability better be in there or all that doesn't matter..especially in competition..
Ralph....
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CSRA
1448 posts
Mar 05, 2008
8:52 PM
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fhtfire thats what i am saying fast axle rollers style means like balls up like a baseball with that wicked velocity u can't beat it style is a tough one to get velocity is always the goal guys come now lol who breeds for slow rollers ok
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DeepSpinLofts
363 posts
Mar 06, 2008
1:28 AM
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My ideal Birmingham Roller pigeon must be capable of.... and rolling in the air approx. 25ft or more in depth (which is the height of the average telephone pole we see) with a tremendous amount of velocity on the spin.
A good spinner in my opinion is one that is rolling on average at least once per minute.... however I prefer style over frequency in these instances. When I say style, I'm referring basically to form, speed (velocity) and tightness on the roll when a bird turns over rapidly in acrobatic flight.
Over the years, I've discovered that attaining an incredibly high velocity on the spin is extremely tough and only through selective breeding & proper loft management.... and training/flying.... can this aerial feat be achieved. Our backyards are full of good performers that can and will roll frequently in the kit.
....but
The key in general here is whether or not our birds can spin with proper rolling style and the athletic stamina required to fly in a competition against other kits.
GOLDEN RULE: The goal is to get 11-to-20 rollers with high velocity on the spin to perform together as a harmonius unit (team).
NOTE: My definition of a high velocity spinner isn't necessarily judged by the speed a bird descends to mother earth from the kit, but it's the dynamic magnitude of the birds spherical gyrations (the incredible speed a rolling pigeon whirls around in circular motions in the air) while tucked neatly in proper rolling form like a tennis ball.
Keep in mind that the faster a bird descends towards earth without crashing... the better.... and of course the greater the velocity on the spin is even greater.
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
Last Edited by on Mar 06, 2008 3:56 PM
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119
10 posts
Mar 06, 2008
10:07 AM
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Marcus,Iam Harry from Ohio,I think you had a few of my birds yrs ago...I am confused WHAT IS STYLE???? Some one explain what it is...for some reason I thought it went with Rolling, the word STYLE is fairly new to me...It is definately a :modern day word"that someone came up with that sounded cool..?I guess pretty soon, someone will be disqualified,because THE HEN WAS TOO MASCULINE IN HER ROLL...LOL LOL..Harry
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DeepSpinLofts
364 posts
Mar 06, 2008
10:30 AM
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Are you Harry Ashcraft?
Foxfire?
Fireballs of Ohio?
Wowsa.... that was over 20 years ago!
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
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Scott
147 posts
Mar 06, 2008
12:54 PM
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(It absolutely amazes me how many of you guys said "Style" first,Now you know why Pensom, McCully,And others said;THERE WILL BE VERY FEW BIRDS WORTHY OF THE NAME { BIRMINGHAM } This has sparked a dissagreement amoung WC contenders, that claim they are not changing the BR. Which I find untrue. ALL the FAMOUS birds 514 119 etc. became FAMOUS because of their VELOSITY without it they would not have even been LOOKED at the second time,they also reproduced these traits,514 could spin so fast ,you waited for her to come apart, or something to fly off her,THESE are "BIRMINGHAM ROLLERS" THE key in my loft always has,,and will always be VELOSITY first,,,every thing else will fall in place, But I respect your right to breed your birds the way you want to.....Harry )
Harry, I'll start this with this, never have my best been accused of being slouchers when it comes to speed.
But there is more to than just speed, for one speed "helps" cover up faults as far as quality,notice I said helps , because it can't completly hide it.
Now this might be just peachy if truelly fast birds would do it day in and day out,but the fact is they can't as condition plays in greatly,and that condition cant be held for long,when they are off they look like dog crap as the lack of style shows thier true colors .
For myself I will take great quality style with decent speed any day, couple that quality style with real speed and now we have something special that is ball bearing smooth.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Mar 06, 2008 3:30 PM
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119
11 posts
Mar 06, 2008
2:04 PM
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HEY MARCUS, Sounds like your doing good,and your intrest is running high,talk about 20 yrs,just 'yesterday'Ole Foxfire was DOC NORDLANDS champion Fireball, he "took my breath" on many occasions, he would have been welcome to any rollermans loft,he really was a Champ....Harry
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CSRA
1455 posts
Mar 06, 2008
7:53 PM
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Flipmode i am with you on that
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DeepSpinLofts
365 posts
Mar 06, 2008
8:04 PM
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Harry, I recall seeing your ad regarding pigeons for sale in a 1980's special Roller edition of The American Pigeon Journal.
Do you remember Harry?
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
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119
12 posts
Mar 07, 2008
7:37 AM
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OK, I gotcha now,, You guys are simply describing what the 'Oldtimers' describe as [A PRETTY ROLLER] this is what I call them,also.."example" I once witnessed, A WELL KNOWN ,BIG TIME, ROLLER MAN, {that all you guys rave about].."SLAP LEATHER" TO buy a bird that was putting on a show, and really spinning deep an frequent,He paid a $100 dollar bill for her,before she landed,[then asked us if we were interested in her]?I looked at my buddy and whispered: did you "see" what I saw"? He said yep!Although the hen was everything you could want, SHE ROLLED, "OFF CENTER", And you couldnt run fast enough to GIVE her to me,Mabe she produced well,Idont know,But she had STYLE [as you call it] UNTIL the rolling started,In my mind, her physical make up was not completely correct. In breeding her,it could have gotten worse in her young..or disappear?..I wish i would have followed her activities for a couple of yrs..Harry
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kcfirl
341 posts
Mar 07, 2008
8:30 AM
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I am surprised nobody mentioned simultaneous breakign as a quality they are after. With so many having winning kit competitions as the primary goal, an scoreable bird, breaking instanteously should be a primary goal, since 1/2 and 3/4 turns multiply the brak points by 2x and 3x respectively.
This is the fastest way to a high score, especially since so few judges are willing to give high multiplers to quality pigeons.
Regards,
Ken Firl
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Scott
160 posts
Mar 07, 2008
12:13 PM
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Ken, every kit bird starts out as an individule first
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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DeepSpinLofts
370 posts
Mar 08, 2008
4:13 AM
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Hey Harry....
Wishing all is well with you and your loved ones in Ohio. Everything is just fine for us here in California at Deep Spin Lofts.
....well anyway
In the 80's, you shipped from Ohio to me a pearl-eyed Tortoiseshell hen to SFO that had a gold band on her leg. She came in a crate with 18 other rolling pigeons.
That hen rolled exceptionally deep (+80ft at times) and never hit anything. She wasn't a very good kit bird, however, I mated her to a Lavender cock I bought from Richard Jaconette in the 80's and was fortunate enough to get one decent cock out of 4 clutchs from the pair.
QUESTION: Was that Tortoiseshell hen with the gold band one of your Fireballs and was she at all related to Foxfire?
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
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Drama Side
107 posts
Mar 08, 2008
8:46 AM
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My homeboy Flipmode aka Donut nailed it.
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kcfirl
344 posts
Mar 08, 2008
10:10 AM
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Scott,
I believe in speed first and foremost because I believe ultimate speed is not possible w.o good style. Then is a bird is fast, but maybe not ultimately fast, style is my next objective.
What about simultaneous breaking, does anyone even consider it?
Ken firl
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ezeedad
354 posts
Mar 08, 2008
10:26 AM
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119,
I really liked your comments... Oh... By the way, did I tell you that I really like that number 119..too..??
kcfirl,
Nice meeting you at the show... I agree with you lots...LOTS...!!! But simultaneous performance...?? I could care less.. That's just how I feel about it...
Gomez
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Scott
162 posts
Mar 08, 2008
10:36 AM
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Ken, style and speed are two completly differents things, when marriaged together to the hightest degree you have a true class act.
As for
(What about simultaneous breaking, does anyone even consider it?)
Ken, I have found that this takes care of itself as long as stability is there and the team on a whole is on the same page.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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wishiwon2
47 posts
Mar 08, 2008
12:40 PM
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Ken,
I look for it, breaking together. If I have an outstanding roller in various facets style, speed, frequency etc that works on its own schedule and doesnt work with the team, and I also have a bird that shows correct rolling (balanced and smooth) decent velocity and good work rate that works well with the team ... goes in the breaks ... I will breed from the second. I believe working together withthe team is an added demension of control. Having a bird regularly working alone on its own, THAT is a major detractor. I would prefer a bird that shows good quality and speed and works with its team mates over an outstanding spinner that operates on its own for stock. Its not that i wouldnt give the outstanding one a try, its just my experience is that like breeds like and i want birds that 'choose' when to roll and do it together.
-JHF-
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kcfirl
347 posts
Mar 08, 2008
1:49 PM
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Scott - I guess we'll just have to disagee on this one and I've NEVER disagreed with anyone before! LOL
You wrote: "Ken, style and speed are two completly differents things".
I disagree - I think ultimate speed is not achieved without good style. You can have fast birds with less than optimum style, but the ultimate in speed pigeons must have good style to achieve the ultimate in velocity.
You also wrote: " when marriaged together to the hightest degree you have a true class act." Now that I agree with and I beleive they are actually inseperable - on the score sheet it's called QUALITY.
Then you wrote this regarding simultaneous breaks: "Ken, I have found that this takes care of itself as long as stability is there and the team on a whole is on the same page."
Again I must disagree. Stability and being on the same page certainly helps breaking together. However, once you seen a very good kit of Mason's breaking together, you will understand that there is another level of simulataneous breaking that few of us ever see in the US. I have seen it once, as I mentioned in a previous post some time ago, at Joey Cantaloupe's house in Gilbert, AZ when he was flying a kit of Masons bred from Al Luna stock which was mported directly from George.
The Pensoms just do not have this. I believe it is due to the fact that the bree was developed to be champion, individual performers with ultimate speed. The Pensoms were not bred with the same goal in mind as the Masons, which have been bred exclusively to be kit birds par excellence from the beginning.
It is interesting that on one hand you have agreed in the past that breeding towards specific goals can certainly move the birds in the desired direction while on the other hand you insist on saying strains of birds bred with different goals as the primary focus can not have different capabilites of simultaneous breaking.
I will go see for myself this summer.
Something to think about buddy. Keep an open mind Grandpa!
Your friend,
Ken Firl
As for
(What about simultaneous breaking, does anyone even consider it?)
Ken, I have found that this takes care of itself as long as stability is there and the team on a whole is on the same page.
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Scott
164 posts
Mar 08, 2008
2:36 PM
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Ken, style comes from proper type, speed comes from mucsle reflex and it starts in the head.
Not to many experianced flyers that I know consider a axel wing good style,yetI have seen a few very fast ones.
As for breaking together, Pensoms properly selected can do exactly the same thing and they have prooven such many times.
After all they all have the same orgins whether here or over there, now granted some families are prone to working together, why ? because they are more prone to be on the same page, as a broad example if you have birds with a super fast trigger along with stiffs along with everything inbetween you aren't going to have a team working as a team.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Mar 08, 2008 3:20 PM
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