winwardrollers
16 posts
Mar 08, 2008
10:47 AM
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I was given five birds from a Roller Pigeon Breeder by the name of Jim Brown around 1995. I breed them together of what I thought best, Looking back now I would have never breed them that way but it turned out the best.
I mated nest mated together (1315x 1316) Then mated half brother/sister (1131x1127) together and had one bird left over 1154 that happened to be 1127's full brother. All five birds were very close related, close matings for generations back as well. 1315 and 1316 which I mated together, parents were brother/sister matings also. I breed them for years and culled a lot.ttt....ttt.. of birds. Along the way a few...ww.w exceptional birds were found here and there.
I never figured that the Younger generations would not get much better than the originals, but I was wrong. I always figured that I would have to outcross and then carefully breed back to the main birds again. These birds have continue to improve and only get better and I never had to outcross to this day to improve.
This is my question I have which may sound simple to someone that has experiance bring a family/line of birds to this point. Is there a need to breed back to the old birds for any reason when the younger birds seem to have a better gene pool?
Brad Winward
Last Edited by on Feb 17, 2009 6:39 AM
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winwardrollers
17 posts
Mar 08, 2008
11:56 AM
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locoft- That is the way I am thinking stay with the new and improved, what you have selected for over the years. If the birds are improving, that is in the right direction.
But are we missing some good genes by not going back to the older gene pool.? That I don't know, but it make since to me that the young have the better gene pool and why not move forward and not back.
Brad winward
Last Edited by on Mar 08, 2008 12:00 PM
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JMUrbon
403 posts
Mar 08, 2008
1:35 PM
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Hey Brad, To answer your question from my perspective I think there is no need to go backwards. You have bred and selected for what you like and you may have lost something along the way but it probably isnt what you wanted anyway or you would have tried to hold onto it along the way. Anyway I seen your birds and I dont feel you are lacking anything in them. They showed me some exceptional roll. They only needed work on the heart and by that I mean the ability to stay together and work at a high rate for the entire 20 minutes of a fly. The spin was top shelf. JMHO. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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winwardrollers
18 posts
Mar 08, 2008
10:22 PM
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Joe
These birds are strong and would fly for hours if you feed them well. These birds love to fly and most of the time you are working to keep them down. Blake Coates has some of the same birds, he has manage them better that I have and last Year won the State fly, Area Flies, Regional WC, NBRC Regionals, flew in the wind, flew in the heat of the day, basicly sweep last year flies here in Utah, so the birds do have some heart. WE have found that breeding the checks back into the blacks make some hardier birds. Blue checks in this family seem to be super pigeons and at times to strong.
There is always something to improve with the rollers and that is why this hobby/sport is so challenging. You never arrive just always chasing the gene pool down for one reason or another through proper selection.
I have seen breeders hang on to old breeder and say that they may need to come back to the old again. But I am thinking like locolofts first post and your post Joe, why would you want to go back to the old genes?
Brad winward
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winwardrollers
20 posts
Mar 09, 2008
9:22 AM
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I guess I ask the original question because I think about what precent of the "good" have I breed from the birds that were my start. Have I left 10%,15%,25% percent of the "good" behind if I move on with the breeding program or if I keep breeding from Old stock it that limiting the "good" that "new and improved" stock birds now have and deluting it with the old gene pool?
Brad Winward
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Scott
167 posts
Mar 09, 2008
9:31 AM
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Brad, great post and there is a lot to be learned from it!
If it is the right key birds and the goods are there with a tight gene pool, then yes you will breed your best yourself, and I was told this a long time ago.
I have found the same exact thing, as for going back to, why ? look where you started and what you had to do to pull out the goods ? why take it back ?
I started my main line with two cocks and one hen
One of the cocks I think that I will retire after this year, why ?
Because I have moved passed him and his grandson is a much better producer, some birds are just stepping stones.
The original hen is old and done and what I consider another stepping stone.
The other cock I will probably take to the end as he is the over all key of the line,but he is getting up there in age.
I have him on a hen that I started crossing into the line a few years ago,her mother was full sister to the original hen and line bred to the line on the top side, this hen has turned out to a top shelf producer and I am putting the best accross the line,and will probably kick a sub line off of it if it all pans out .
All of this is where a huge part of the fun and satifaction is for me, it is like building blocks where the results are obvious , it is slow going though but well worth it.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Mar 09, 2008 9:42 AM
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JMUrbon
409 posts
Mar 10, 2008
10:07 AM
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Hey Brad I seen Blakes results in the big flies last year. You know as well as I that comes down to management when all else is equal. I dont want to critique your management abilities and you know that I tried to bring a pair of your birds home with me. LOL. They would fit nicely with mine . I see a huge amount of resemblances in your birds and mine. I have not put another family into these birds since I originally crossed a Plona Hen with the Red Bar Cock on the other post back in 89 and it took alot for me to want to bring another bird home so your birds must have showed me something special. Joe
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J.M.Urbon Lofts
A Proven Family of Spinners
http://www.freewebs.com/jmurbonlofts/
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ICEMAN710
534 posts
Sep 23, 2008
4:32 AM
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good read.
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Gary
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gotspin7
1834 posts
Sep 23, 2008
4:41 AM
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I agree iceman
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Sal Ortiz
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winwardrollers
133 posts
Feb 16, 2009
2:33 PM
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Old post..ran acrossed it.
Keep your family of birds breed tight..if you have seen improvement over the years..it seem that there is always a birds that pops up that will help you continue working with the orignals without having to cross breed. I have projects that I work with on the side but they always go back to the originals and are culled if they don't work out.
Since posting a year ago I breed the best young bird kit last year I have had.
This post is not about a particular family it is about breeding pigeons in general. This year's breeding will be more with the new and improved gene pool and slowly leave the Old line.
bwinward
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don33
5 posts
Feb 16, 2009
6:48 PM
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Brad, I had the pleasure to judge your birds a couple of times a few years back and remember the speed and depth in your family of birds was outstanding, and wish I had the determination to stick with one line of birds and bring out the best in them as you have done. My hat is off to you.Thanks for sharing.
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fhtfire
1802 posts
Feb 16, 2009
6:55 PM
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Winward,
If you are moving forward keep moving forward...somtimes I go back to some of my old cocks and hens and works out and the get even better...sometimes they are just average...that is what makes this hobby so FUN..you can do any type of experiment with pairs and you can get the result quick compared to many other animals......it is a hard choice...but if you see a bird or a couple birds that resemble your birds on the perch and doing it enough to make your jaw drop...then I say why not do a trial pairing or a couple..you get the results quick..
I look at it this way...if I was not sitting in my backyard one day just looking at my Pure Rubys and Pure morts on the kit box...and said to myself..what the hell...I am going to take that Smoking Ruby Cock and put him on my best Mort hen or put my Old Mort cock and Rocket Ruby hen..and tried them....I would still be scratching my head in my back yard..but the two crosses hit..and they kept hitting...I am on my fourth and fifth generations of the Flashover ...crosses....and I like what I am seeing...
I think I was just lucky becuase I was new and had nothing to lose...or I was not set in stone from the years of it being bashed into my head...Inbreed..inbreed..etc etc....but again..I go against the grain...and I go outside the box from time to time..but again..like I said...if it does not work...then go back to your base....if it does work..move forward...
I am not saying just start throwing birds together....I am saying...it does not hurt to try...Dont think for a second that if Joe Urbon told me
he had a super cock he wanted me to try...guess what I would....and if that bird added a little zip into my birds...I will put it in...again..some of my best breedings are cousins...that have a little branch off another tree...again..I am not saying get some birds and screw your shit up...I am talking about if you see a bird that makes your jaw drop...or gives you a woodie to the point you are dreaming about that bird...then that is when you say...I would like to try....Joe just proved that point....and Joe sat in my backyard talking about your birds and how he wanted to try some.....
rock and ROLL
Paul
Last Edited by on Feb 16, 2009 6:57 PM
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winwardrollers
138 posts
Feb 16, 2009
11:48 PM
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Paul
Both ways of breeding work if your selective and watch what your doing.
There is a lot of breeders out there that are scared/inpatient..etc.. of inbreeding and cross their birds as fast as they get them. Do you need speed...frequency..stablity..etc. its in the pot you just have to wait for it.
bwinward
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winwardrollers
139 posts
Feb 16, 2009
11:54 PM
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Don Sutton
That's my guess..The only Don that has judged my birds.
Good to hear from you and welcome.. I noticed you have only posted a few times.
bwinward
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Scott
1746 posts
Feb 17, 2009
5:47 AM
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Yep, for me it is a cock (707),he was exceptional in the air and now in the stock loft,he is the next founation , this bird is where is all comes together.
The tighter I draw them in with the right birds the more the line progresses forward,but they were hardly out crosses when I started with them,although they weren't exceptionaly tight due to out crossing within the family lines and pretzel breeding.
But I also run another line that ties in further back up the same with this line,as I draw it in with the right birds the better they produce,these two line will be why I will never need to go outside of the loft for fresh blood if needed.
PS that Mr Don is a sneaky one LOL
(it seem that there is always a birds that pops up that will help you continue working with the orignals without having to cross breed.)
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Feb 17, 2009 10:21 AM
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don33
6 posts
Feb 17, 2009
7:30 AM
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Brad, That is me. Just wanted to comment on what good birds I saw at your place and admire what you have done sticking to a plan. We could all learn something from that. Howdy Scott! We missed you at the convention in Texas.
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spinningdemon
357 posts
Feb 17, 2009
8:50 AM
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Brad, I have always told you your birds are top notch and that I think you are headed in the right direction by not going back to the old.
I have orientals that are better then where I started. Since I lost all of my old stock birds I have no way to go back, I just have the kit birds that I did not loose, to breed from this year.
This is one of the better disscusions I have read and thank you for getting it started.
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David Curneal
www.freewebs.com/dcurneal
www.saltcreekcustomstone.com
In the air since 1973
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winwardrollers
140 posts
Feb 17, 2009
9:47 AM
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Curneal
You have to understand that when I hear about the breed of oriental pigeons it make my stomach churn. My almonds have the oriental in them and I have been trying to get that out of them for years..droopy wing..larger bodies..goofy head...unstable.
Bwinward
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spinningdemon
359 posts
Feb 17, 2009
11:31 AM
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Brad, some like the looks of an oriental sorry you dont. I agree with all of this "droopy wing..larger bodies..goofy head...unstable. " except the unstable part. Most of the real flying strains of orientals are very stable birds I breed my first roll down in over 10 years with the breed, this year. You have to have the real fliers though no show bird culls!
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David Curneal
www.freewebs.com/dcurneal
www.saltcreekcustomstone.com
In the air since 1973
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Mount Airy Lofts
866 posts
Feb 17, 2009
2:50 PM
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Brad,
No looking back is all I can say. Nice post. It is all about moving forward.
Thanks for bring it to light,
Thor
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It's all about the friends we make :)
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DeepSpinLofts
1154 posts
Feb 17, 2009
5:21 PM
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February 17th, 2009
I've flown a similar family of Birmingham Roller pigeon. These birds are figure 8 types and can fly for hours at extreme heights if allowed to overfeed. I sometimes cut back on the peas and add some canary seed. Then just kick back and watch'em drop like yo-yo's from the sky.
I've noted the better rollers (high velocity spinners) are generally found in the checks, tortoiseshells, grizzles, blacks and duns. The bluecheck and dark check Plonas can really spin their tails off in the air!
...well anyway
Breeding a close knit family of high velocity spinners with aerial stability can be time consuming. It requires a strict breeding program like that of the late WH Pensom.
Concentration on the stock loft is perhaps the best way for all of us to genetically engineer those top notch spinners we all desire for competition. The key formula here is having the proper stock to begin with in the first place.
NOTE: We get this particular stock by selectively picking the very best performers out of the air.
...and
The rest is merely left up to feeding, breeding, cleaning, training and routinely flying (proper loft management).
That pretty much wraps it up!
MEMO: A conversation across the table from a wise man is better than years of study of only books.... for its true that wisdom is acquired by an inquiring mind.
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
Last Edited by on Feb 17, 2009 5:23 PM
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