kopetsa
432 posts
Mar 21, 2008
12:34 AM
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Does this come in handy with certain strains?
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Andrew
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luis
733 posts
Mar 21, 2008
12:48 AM
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Fly them out and pick what you like.Certainly not an exact science,but bound to lead you in the right direction......and that's ROLL!
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nicksiders
2630 posts
Mar 21, 2008
1:49 AM
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This is my take on the birmingham Roller. It is a performance breed and all your breeding decisions should be made to enhance the performance. You will not find performce by chasing color. Now if you want color there are several breeds of color pigeons and that is where you need to pursue. If you want a performce breed then breed for performance.
Nick Siders
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RUDY..ZUPPPPP
1404 posts
Mar 21, 2008
1:53 AM
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Heck yeah breed for Color...........L.M.A.O.
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RUDY PAYEN
PANCHO VILLA LOFT
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Mount Airy Lofts
575 posts
Mar 21, 2008
2:43 AM
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Go for it :) Nothing easier than to breed for color. Easy road is what many guys take.
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It's all about the friends we make :)
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Ty Coleman
86 posts
Mar 21, 2008
4:51 AM
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There are a few familys that have color that roll as well as any other maybee better. You can breed for color and performance but its twice the challenge these so called {pure bred} rollermen have breed hard cull hard and cut no slack. Ty
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bertie
76 posts
Mar 21, 2008
6:23 AM
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Well I'm kind of new at this roller thing but I would say go back 10 or 20 years and look at just the winners of all the big contests. Take a look at what the birds look like, you know the real champs. Not the second or third place but the champs! Are there more in the colored bred birds or the true wild looking birds looks?
That should tell you every thing you want to know about what is the best.
This is a photo of my best looking bird I think, but to each his own.
Bert
Last Edited by on Mar 21, 2008 6:30 AM
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gabe454
634 posts
Mar 21, 2008
8:42 AM
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No kopesta at least for me i wouldnt just breed for color dont realy care for it color doesnt make the bird spin.
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454
TRIPLE "G" LOFT
L.P.R.C
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quickspin
470 posts
Mar 21, 2008
9:37 AM
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When you guys talk about color you mean weird colors that are not in Birmingham rollers?
I get a lot of color from my birds. Red Checks, Reds, Lavenders, Grizzles, Blacks, Ash Red, Blue checks Etc.
Not just Blue Checks Self.
I have seen in videos from England that most of there birds are Black and white badges. Not many Blue checks self's or reds.
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SALAS LOFT
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bertie
78 posts
Mar 21, 2008
10:21 AM
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I also have all the colors that you mentioned. I see red checks in the wild a lot and grizzles too.
I use the photo of my lavender cock a lot in different posts. Which is another subject now. That lavender I just spoke of got out of the cage today! One of my extra males I didn't have any other hens to put him with. Guess he's history, I seen him flying bigger and bigger circles then Poof no where to be seen. As far as I know he has never been out flying. Looks like he gets plenty now. I've left the flight cage open just in case but I really think he is gone for good. One less color for me to worry about. :`^(
Bert
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Scott
275 posts
Mar 21, 2008
12:22 PM
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(I have seen in videos from England that most of there birds are Black and white badges. Not many Blue checks self's or reds.
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SALAS LOFT )
There is a reason for that, it has to do with illusion and the back ground that the birds fly against.
I fly under alot of clear blue, and due to it there are few white flyted birds that I care for.
Just my Opinion
Scott
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kopetsa
434 posts
Mar 21, 2008
12:46 PM
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Just wanted to hear some thoughts! :)
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Andrew
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spinner jim
248 posts
Mar 21, 2008
12:58 PM
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COLOUR ? all birds have colour and each to his own,its all a matter of choice ,i would never discourage a newby by telling him to not choose the colour of birds that appeal to him personally,i like a variety of colour through my lofts if i had all one colour i would go mad,i dont class myself as a colour breeder,all my birds can turn but as i dont club fly i please myself as to what i stock and breed from,i have for the best of forty years ,some of my black grizzle brs are a picture to look at but can roll with the best,i hope the sky-hawks dont take all the best flyers out of the sky but if numbers get short you guys might end up re-stocking from a colour breeder just to keep going.jmho,jim uk.
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colinb
61 posts
Mar 21, 2008
12:59 PM
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THERE IS EVERY COLOUR UNDER THE SUN HERE IN THE UK
IF U BREED FOR COLOUR U R ON A DOWNWARD SPIRAL U MUST BREED FOR SPEED AND QUALITY
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kopetsa
436 posts
Mar 21, 2008
1:03 PM
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Colin's got it right on! :D
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Andrew
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Ty Coleman
88 posts
Mar 21, 2008
2:39 PM
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Bertie i disagree with your post.If you go back 20 to 30 years. We are making advancements with the birds not going backwards look at the last five years.The birds we fly now are better than last years and will get better as years to come. I dont care who you are youve got to agree with that.
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bertie
79 posts
Mar 21, 2008
3:08 PM
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Well that was just an example of how to find out which has been the best. Can't tell anything in 4 or 5 years. Maybe we should just start this thread in another 10 years and see if it still goes the same direction. Haha!
Gee if I check my gas mileage after every 5 miles I'm doing GREAT. If I wait until the whole tank is gone, man I need a new car.
I know one thing, these birds aren't bred for their smarts. I had one get out today. Never been out of a cage in his life and Poof, he is history. Glad it was one that hadn't paired up yet. Maybe that is smart. He is free as a bird, and hungry as heck! I went out looking for him, I was going to show him one of my Google satellite maps so he could find his way home.
Bert
Last Edited by on Mar 21, 2008 3:09 PM
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Ty Coleman
91 posts
Mar 21, 2008
3:20 PM
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improvement bert thats what im saying improvement.50 rollemen can improve a breed faster than 5.
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sippi
154 posts
Mar 21, 2008
5:59 PM
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Andrew if you get hung up on a color instead of the performnce you will be backing up. On the other hand there is nothing like a good pretty bird. I like different colors because I can tell them in the air better. But it looks like in five years I will have all black bald and grizzle. If I do so be it. Follow the roll or follow the color but dont try both until you fully understand genetics or you will have a mess sooner than you think.
Sippi
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RUDY..ZUPPPPP
1406 posts
Mar 21, 2008
6:06 PM
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Breed for color.....!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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RUDY PAYEN
PANCHO VILLA LOFT
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Mongrel Lofts
551 posts
Mar 21, 2008
6:29 PM
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Ty,
How long have you been into rollers to know the birds have gotten better the last 30 years? What are you comparing getting better too? I have been around for 30 years and have watched the birds today compared to the birds I seen 30 years ago. I have talked to many who were there 50 and 60 years ago. We all agree, the best back then easily matched the best bred today. The only difference is there are more people flying and breeding rollers today. The WC and National fly has made many focus on breeding for performance and not the show pen, pedigree or color. The odd Rare color cross breeder can give all the credit for the roll in his new creation of rare colored roller's to the Pure Birmingham rollers imported to this country. They have improved nothing in performance by cross breeding for color, pattern and factors of ice pigeons and the like. These show pigeon crosses for color didn't add a thing to the performance of the Birmingham roller. In fact Ty, If you take away the normal colored Birmingham rollers from those rare colored birds, they would soon revert back to common tumblers. The roll is from the Birmingham and without them the cross bred colors would not roll. Ty, Are you just going by what you've been told by rare color breeders?? Just wondering. Who has told you the birds roll better today than they did 30 years ago? That claim just is not true.. The best then would equal the best of today. No doubt about that FACT!!! KGB
PS. Ty is my son's name.
Last Edited by on Mar 22, 2008 8:09 AM
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Ty Coleman
93 posts
Mar 21, 2008
9:26 PM
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"Ken,
The point that I was making was that with the organization of competitions and roller organizations in the past few decades, surely this has resulted in more quality birds around than 30 years ago. I guess I can't really speak to whether or not they are any better today-I wasn't around 30 years ago! LOL! Were you? I see that you feel that they are no better today. That is a bit frustrating for me...why do you think this is so? It is a total assumption on my part that a greater number of men competing with these birds over the past few decades that we MUST have improved on their speed, quality and depth. I will have to defer to your greater experience if you say that is not so.
Ty
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Mongrel Lofts
553 posts
Mar 22, 2008
7:42 AM
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Hi Ty,
Yea, I was around 30 years ago. Sorry to say! LOL Ty, what we do have today is more men. Greater numbers of flyers who are breeding for the performance. There are a lot more rollers being flown and bred today. Your post stated, wait I will go back and get it, so I don't miss qoute you.
This is your qoutes Ty..{If you go back 20 to 30 years. We are making advancements with the birds not going backwards look at the last five years.The birds we fly now are better than last years and will get better as years to come.
You are very much mistaken in your thoughts. Every bird i own has color or carries color genes.I cull 10 foot birds and im starting to raise the bar higher, and some how i still have a loft of color birds.All of the breeders i know have been taged color breeders by a handfull of ignorant people in this sport and we catch alot of ridicule,but for this reason we have been betterd because we cull twice as hard and surpassed the quality of most our oposition. Ty Coleman }
Ty, If your point is, you are improving the birds each year in your own loft. I couldn't agree with you more. We are all trying to raise more of the best we have and we hope to get better every year. I can tell you from over 30 years with rollers. Getting better every year will surely not be the case! It's more like a roller coaster, up and down, Peak and Valley!! Now if your point is, We fly better rollers today than the old timers who spent 50 or 60 years, a life time with rollers did. Your wrong. The best they had, would match the best I have ever seen or flown. What we are trying to do, is make more of the best of the breed. We have not improved on the depth, speed or style of the Birmingham roller. They can only roll so deep and fast. They can only get the wings so high.{} That maximum was in the Birmingham when Pensom imported it to this country from the great Black Country breeders of England. We here in the states are just trying not to lose it or ruine it! I can tell you this, you will see more Low X wing and Axle wing style culls today than ever before. We have many today, who think frequency, breaking, depth is the ultimate. They pay no attention to the finer quality's of the Birmingham Rollers performance. They will even tell you,,if it's fast I don't care if it rolls with it's wings straight out. They don't care if a bird come's out of the roll flying south away from the kit or tail sits after a long roll! Pay attention to wing style Ty. Those birds that have nice speed but low X wings are pure JUNK. Pay attention to how a bird comes out or finnishes the roll. A bird that stalls or drops before coming out ot the roll is A step down from what the old timers flew.. Ty, we are breeding more good rollers today, due to numbers and competition. But we are only breeding more because of more rollers being bred. We have not bred better rollers! We are just breeding more rollers. The numbers being bred, of course means more good ones will be bred.. It's a percentage thing with the hobby as a whole. On the other hand, it also means that many times over, the average junk is bred. Just like in the past, the truly great performers and kits are rare. A thing to strive for! For every great roller there will be 100 or more culls or average rollers bred around the country. I've rambled enough Ty.. Thanks for the chat. KGB
PS. Ty, I have seen some very good rolling Andy's and one Opal.. Randy Gibson flew some very nice rare colored rollers. Doug Brown also comes to mind.
Last Edited by on Mar 22, 2008 8:16 AM
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Hector Coya
53 posts
Mar 22, 2008
8:19 AM
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Ive had my Bob Scott line since 1982,Pure Pensom,untill just a few years ago , i was a pureist,Didnt want to bring anything home that wasnt Bob Scott,one day a kid i helped get into pigeons told me he got a bird from some guy and it rolled .
Much to my surprize that bird cicked ass.
that was the first bird i introduced to my loft,it had colors i never new could roll.
i still have my old stuff,but those Oples,that go back to Randy Gibson roll just as good as my pure Pensom's from Bob Scott.
So why not have a little fun with color ,if they Spinn.
Your right breed for performance but if the color is nice better even.
Hector Coya
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Missouri-Flyer
1523 posts
Mar 22, 2008
8:27 AM
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I have a few comments to make of my own, to a few gentlemen:
First Kopetsa:.. I understand that you are very new to this forum, and to the breed in general, but "most" of the threads that you have started since you have been on this site have been questions about color this or color that...If your questions are referring to the common colors found in the Birmingham Roller, then those are fine, but questions regarding rare colors not found in what we know as the pure Birmingham Roller, then your questions only appear to want to cause conflict..I think that your intentions here are good. The best advise that I can give you is to look back at the past threads and gain knowledge, and stop starting threads that have been hashed out hundreds of times here..You will learn more from the back threads than you will ever learn by asking new questions..Its all there is you will just take the time to read instead of asking questions just to ask questions.
Ty:..Again I know you are new here, and new to the Birmingham Roller. I understand that you paid a visit to Cliffs house, whcih is a good thing...My question is, is his house the only performance based loft you have ever been to?..If not, then throw out some names of guys that you have seen their birds fly.... In reading most of your posts, it is obvious that you have tons to learn..The gentleman that posted above mine is one that you might want to listen to, and not question his knowledge. I am not saying that he knows more than any other "experienced" roller nut, or has better birds than the better flyers, but he has been around this game many moons, and has alot to share if you will just listen..Your profile says that you were introduced to this breed 6 months ago...Ty, in that amount of time, you cant even expect to be able to tell pigeon shit from canary shit...Give it time, and you will learn..As I commented to Kop, you will learn more by reading and listening, than by talking about something that you have very limited experience with...
I will say that this post was not intended to show your lack of knowledge, or to dis-credit you guys in any way. It was to enlighten you to search out information, instead of questioning those that already have the answers..
Good luck to both of you, and may we meet on the score sheets after you have got a grasp on this hobby.
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Jerry
Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
Last Edited by on Mar 22, 2008 10:37 AM
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bertie
83 posts
Mar 22, 2008
8:49 AM
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Jerry and Ty, Canary shit is a lot smaller.
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Ty Coleman
95 posts
Mar 22, 2008
10:31 AM
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Jerry you are corect i have only had rollers for about 7 months and Cliffs were the first comp birds i have ever seen.My uncle raised rollers for many years he was a backyard guy and my brother also they both had rollers for many years but they never competed i have talked to many different rollermen which i have great respect for. many have way more years in the hobby than most and have won several comps those are the ones i listen to and this is who i will continue to listen to. These rollermen are mostly retired and i wont bring there names into a debate that they arnt here to defend If i make a post thats not to someones liking im sorry but you know what opinions are like.And everyone has one.That is a opinion lol.
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2266 posts
Mar 22, 2008
9:51 PM
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"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
Support This Site With Your Pigeon Product Purchase-Over 100 Pigeon Products!
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PR_rollers
709 posts
Mar 23, 2008
12:26 AM
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Bertie you are funny lol..
Kopetsa being new in the game i would advise concentrate on performance first and foremost.leave colors for the more experience guy.. you get a lot further with performance as your main goal.----------
Ralph....
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