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The Original All Roller Talk Discussion Board Archive >
Strains Within Strains & Any Color Can Roll
Strains Within Strains & Any Color Can Roll
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
2354 posts
Apr 16, 2008
6:31 PM
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"Once a strain is established, we can still create other strains within the strain and still maintain the same good qualities"---William Pensom
"When more fanciers understand that the propensity to roll is a mental phenomenon, and the particular delivery of the roll is governed by the bird's body and feather structure, we will see a greater number of excellent performers. And when more fanciers understand how relatively simple it is to produce birds of any chosen color or pattern, we will see more outstanding performers in exotic colors"---D.D. Kowalski
Source - "True Spinning Rollers" Chapter 15 Titled "Any Color You Want" by Dave Kowalski
QUESTION
Would you agree or disagree with these 2 statements and why? If you can expound on them, please do.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge...argument is an exchange of ignorance". by unknown
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BA Rollers
5 posts
Apr 16, 2008
7:09 PM
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I agree with the first quote. Fundementally speaking, this is generally a proven method of animal husbandry. But I will add that I don't think just anyone is up to the task.
I don't believe from my personal experience that the second quote is accurate. All things being equal, I believe the roll (speed, quality, depth) is initiated and instrumented by the brain. I've raised birds that rolled like rubbish that were identical in physical structure to those that rolled much better. I discovered this a long time ago and even with the birds I have now, the same examples seem to recite themselves.
B.A.
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Scott
357 posts
Apr 16, 2008
7:11 PM
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The one on the bottom is only known because he wrote a book and did nothing where the breed is concerned,nor does he still keep the breed.
As for the one on top ,well you know LOL
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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Velo99
1659 posts
Apr 16, 2008
8:08 PM
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The issue is control. Without it the bird is nothing,but a stiff or RD. When we speak of control it is the mental effort required to perform the task at hand which in this case is to roll. Identical physical characteristics are the test of this thoery. Either a bird has "it" or it doesnt. Control also includes a human characteristic we call desire. The desire to excel is a trait we all have but like control it varies by degree. When a bird has both we have a champion.
Color is a paint job with sometimes deadly consequences in the case of opals and some other factors. I think it is a dominant opal on a dominant opal that throws a genetic flaw that ususally ends in the bird dying early underdeveloped and weak.
We can be in possession of a strain within a strain by simply keeping a family straight and line breeding. It would tighten the gene pool and hopefully has the results we desire. However when breeding in close there are other defective genetic traits that can arise in addition to the ones deemed valuable.
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V99
Keep the best. Eat the rest.
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ezeedad
456 posts
Apr 16, 2008
8:46 PM
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Tony,
I agree with Pensom's statement, in that if a strain is made from the established strain it can be maintained at a high level since making a strain consistss largely of eliminating "bad genes". The new strain will not have the undesired bad genes and can hold up as long as there is no mintroduction of the undesirable factors. If the breeder gets into a bind he can also reintroduce some of the blood of the original strain without changing the identity of the new one.
ASs for Kowalski's statement, I agree pretty much with the first sentence, but not with the second.
I don't think it relatively easy to produce any color or pattern. Certain colors and patterns are difficult to produce, let alone perfect, and it could easily interfere with the pursuit of outstanding roll. Also certain "exotic" colors are easier to produce than others.
But that being said, it is only logical to assume that if there are more breeders attempting rare colors and patterns there will be more of them produced, and among these there are bound to be some outstanding birds.. Really rare birds though... It is not as simple as his statement might lead one to believe...
Gomez
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WaTtS UpP
577 posts
Apr 16, 2008
8:49 PM
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whats up gomez hows everything hows your birds and your snakes and everybody
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Watts uppp homeboy
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ezeedad
457 posts
Apr 16, 2008
9:02 PM
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Hey Nick,
Everythings good...hope the same for you... I think Tony likes us to try to stay on the topic of the post... But I see your picture, so you got to do it gangsta,,, LOL..
Take care my friend...
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DeepSpinLofts
598 posts
Apr 16, 2008
9:37 PM
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Very interesting topic Tony.... thanks for sharing.
On the basis of biological, sociological, and historical knowledge, we all recognize that the Birmingham Roller Pigeon is quite indeed a rare breed of aerial performer. I am firmly convinced that we can discover strains within a strain through linebreeding and conceivably by inbreeding too.
....however
As far as any color can roll is concerned... I am a man who will live and die by the "DEEP SPIN"!
NOTE: "It is certain that colors and markings cannot be cultivated without a decided loss in the quality of deep spinning". -- W.H. Pensom
...also
"To clarify my findings, so far as color goes, I refer to reds, yellows and whites and combinations of the same... as soft colors... and denoting weakness of character as well. Blue checkers, red checkers and duns, I call the hard colors and which I believe are indicative of stronger character. It is among these latter colored birds we find the most stabilized spinners, whereas among the soft colors we find the unstable spinner." -- W.H. Pensom
William Hyla Pensom died of a heart attack at his home in Canoga Park, California, in 1968.
May he rest in peace.
...moving on
Let's keep in mind that this special breed of domestic pigeon comes in many colors/shades and has been cultivated to perfom incredible acrobatic stunts by dedicated breeders, trainers and flyers.
....and
The sum total of individual achievements of great roller men such as W.H. Pensom, Stan Plona, Frank Lavin, Jerry Higgins, Ralph Hilton, Homer Corderre, Dick Stephens, Carl Hardesty, D.D. Kowalski, Henry Cook, Don Oullette, Ray Perkins, Monty Neible, Joe Houghton, Chandler Grover, Hans Roettenbacher, Ron Kumro, Bob Evans, J. Leroy Smith, Richard Espinoza, Bob Scott, Charlie Saldana, Bruce Cooper and James Turner for better or worse..., will live on in immortality within the roller world right here in the good ole` U.S.A
MEMO: Information is power.... but sharing it can give you even more power!
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
Last Edited by on Apr 17, 2008 2:48 AM
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WaTtS UpP
581 posts
Apr 16, 2008
10:10 PM
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man gomez you dont know how much i miss being in your class it was one of a kind even thought i use to get in trouble and you use to send me to the office ahaha....lol it was a memory thats going to stick with me for the rest of my life
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Watts uppp homeboy
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WaTtS UpP
582 posts
Apr 16, 2008
10:23 PM
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this is what im doing right now i got a few birds from tim decker and some from jack meyer i got a few babies and eggs alot of people told me before i put them down well why dont you just mate one tim to one jack so you could establish a family fast and i thought to my self thats a good idea but then i thought to my self no all these top fliers didnt establish there family over night so i decided to breed 3 pairs of pure tim decker birds then breed 5 pairs of pure jack meyer birds then get all the babies and fly them hard and choose the qualifications in each bird that i want breed to establish my family with and erase all the bad habbits that i dont want .........and maybe just maybe i could squeeze one more family just to blend into my birds to make them better
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Watts uppp homeboy
Last Edited by on Apr 16, 2008 10:24 PM
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Mount Airy Lofts
673 posts
Apr 16, 2008
10:27 PM
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I suppose all we have to do is look at the flier and what he did with his birds to see which theory holds true.
I know David was in my neck of the woods for some time. He had some out standing stock birds as I have been told from a guy who took care of them at one time. None that I talked to had any thing good to say about the birds he flew. That speaks volume if you asked me. From his books and from the guys who have seen his birds in the air, it seems more then likely that David was more concerned about how they looked on the ground then in the air and selected for such.
I hear David still has birds. Maybe some one who has his current stock can fill us more as to the quality they are seeing.
Intersting topic,
Thor
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It's all about the friends we make :)
Last Edited by on Apr 16, 2008 10:33 PM
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rollingline33
105 posts
Aug 21, 2008
10:49 PM
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good one!!
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Ballrollers
1404 posts
Aug 23, 2008
7:41 PM
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I can see the validity in both statements but Pensom's wisdom I can more agree with. Kowalski's statement has not been proven 100%, to my satisfaction, and probably puts too much emphasis on the physical makeup of the bird. The correct type is an asset, of couse, but there is more to the story.I find it NOT EASY to mass produce exceptional rollers, no matter what color. There are far more good rollers in blue and red because there are faar more of them in the air. But as has been stated by more than one man on this board, Good performing rollers, rollers that have earned the title of True Birmingham Roller, can come in colors other than simple blue and red. It is the knowledge of genetics that helps us predict the color/patterns in our birds. That knowledge is available to us all but it can be difficult to learn. Outstanding performers can come in exotic colors, yes they do! But they also come in blue and red. If any strain of any color can produce 100% outstanding performers, get in line cause I will be in front of you. The fact is, many families can produce good performers. A few families can produce good performers with exotic colors, BUT...... no family can mass produce 100% good performers. The Roller pigeon was bred from tipplers and several breeds of tumblers. When we get throwbacks, we get high straight flyers that represent the tipplers, or flippers that represent the tumbler influence. These two genetic traits may account for a majority of undesirable birds raised. But it is normal and expected, even after decades of breeding, these traits may show up in some families. I may have strayed from the topic a bit, Sorry Tony.
Cliff
Last Edited by on Aug 23, 2008 7:41 PM
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George R.
978 posts
Aug 23, 2008
7:56 PM
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Whos David Kowalski ??????????
The Novice
George
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kopetsa
1422 posts
Aug 24, 2008
2:57 AM
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I agree with Both..
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Andrew
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3757
871 posts
Aug 24, 2008
3:53 AM
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Tony - This is a great topic! I agree with Pensom's statement and the first sentence of Kowalski as far as the spin being mental. However, body type will fool you. There are birds that do not meet the "criteria" for good body and feather that defy gravity. Then there are those birds that are of perfect type that come from a family of spinners that are garbage.
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Alohazona
445 posts
Aug 24, 2008
2:04 PM
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The roll is a mental attribute.I think all the primary traits were locked in to Plonas strain before before Kowalski made off with them.My birds are plona based and i have some birds identical to some in his book.I think he was taking alot of credit for something that was already there.The strenghths and weaknesses he speaks of are evident in what I am flying.I think it would take alot longer than what he indicates to purge the faults.From what just about every one that wrote about Plona,they said he was a stickler for Pensoms strain once he started up with them.I have had to work several sides to this family to come up with what have right now.I have some good result. I know its just the tip of the iceberg,theres a long road ahead,but one I find intriguing...Aloha,Todd
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Ballrollers
1410 posts
Aug 24, 2008
5:35 PM
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Hey George,
Here ya go rookie, check this out on RPDC:
Pigeon Supplies: Medications-Supplements-Books-Cages-Loft Plans
Cliff
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iride
33 posts
Aug 25, 2008
8:56 AM
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Talking of Pensom,,,
I read somewhere where he could pick out a real spinner in the loft, Just how the bird handled and looked,,,,,
Mike
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Handlebar loft
Mike
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