ezeedad
468 posts
Apr 25, 2008
8:16 PM
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Something interesting that Pensom wrote...
I fail to see what useful purpose can be served by supplying information on Birmingham Rollers which I have bred in the past and which in no sense would benefit anybody but myself. I firmly believe that pedigrees of the unknown can and do create a condition of degeneracy, since pedigrees for Rollers depend entirely upon the observations of the breeder himself.
How can one portray on paper the true characteristics of rolling pigeons such as temperament, reaction to mental instability, and relation of mental instability to organized training and environment. It simply cannot be done. Therefore, when a fancier mates his stock according to pedigree, he becomes victim to wishful thinking with the hope that something good will come of it. The correct procedure to pursue in the creation of a successful stud of rolling pigeons is to purchase the right kind of stock from the right kind of fancier. It is important that the beginner either see the quality of the vendor's birds in flight or take the work of some reliable fancier who has seen them in flight, and who knows the breeder well. If the purchased stock is of any value the beginner, after a period of three years, should be able to own a flock of rolling pigeons to be proud of. Only dissatisfaction can accrue from less that the best.
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Scott
407 posts
Apr 25, 2008
8:28 PM
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Good post Paul, personaly I think that peds have done far more harm than good as people put value in a bird simply due to pedigree.
On the other hand peds are nothing more than breeding records , and going back on peds 30 years plus is interesting reads.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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DeepSpinLofts
635 posts
Apr 25, 2008
8:56 PM
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[WH Pensom 1904-1968]
William Hyla Pensom was born in 1904 in Birmingham, England, and if ever there was a "born fancier", he was. Because his father and grand-father were fanciers, his initiation to the hobby came early. By the time he was an adolescent he already had become personally acquainted with many of the actual founding fathers of the breed, men who had done critical foundation breeding in the 1800's and who had literally brought the Birmingham Roller into the 20th century. The significance of the achievements of those early breeders is made all the more remarkable by the fact that their work was done long before the discovery of Mendel's principles and the establishment of the science of genetics. But this was not unique to the origin of the Birmingham Roller.
The British were early leaders in the field of practical animal breeding in virtually all areas, with impressive results having been obtained many years before any scientific understanding of the biological mechanisms involved was available. Developing distinctive breeds of live-stock was, to a considerable extent, a national preoccupation and source of pride.
The founding fathers of the Birmingham Roller may have known nothing of chromosomes, genes, dominance, etc., but they shared with their fellow countrymen a well-honed ability to spot quality stock and an intuitive understanding of heritable variation and directional selection capable of producing results which modern breeders would be hard-pressed to match.
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
Last Edited by on Apr 25, 2008 9:44 PM
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smoke747
902 posts
Apr 26, 2008
12:58 AM
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thanks for that post paul. that needed to be shared.
smoke747
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Keith London
ICRC
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Scott
411 posts
Apr 26, 2008
8:03 AM
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There is a lot of good stuff there that touches on the importance of flying and learning the true charactor of the bird, there is just more to it than breeding the best performers.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
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ezeedad
471 posts
Apr 26, 2008
11:29 AM
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Yes Scott,
There may be some good information in pedigrees, but the most valuable tool we have is the ability to recognize a good bird.
Good info Marcus... The Brits have been the leading edge of breedins animals in general for a long time.
Thanks Keith
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DeepSpinLofts
644 posts
Apr 26, 2008
1:15 PM
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Greetings this weekend Scott... wishing all is well with you and your loved ones.
Eezeedad's excerpts in regards to some of Pensoms writings are treasurable footnotes for us all. However Scott... it's important to understand that Pensom's essays were unusually well written, stimulated the imagination, and were widely read.
I have literally read tons of Pensoms manuscripts and there was always something about them that was quite important to the sport it seems. The techniques he described worked! Fanciers discovered that when they applied the disciplined approach which Pensom had intelligently outlined, their overall success with the birds and their sheer enjoyment of the hobby dramatically increased.
Pensom generally described a concise practical method for training youngsters and for managing flyers.
....however
His breeding system (though perhaps not so clear to newbies) for choosing breeders and matching them into pairs is by far the best advice I've ever seen about these beautiful aerial acrobats.
Talk to you later....
Marcus
Deep Spin Lofts
Last Edited by on Apr 26, 2008 6:27 PM
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sippi
187 posts
Apr 26, 2008
7:48 PM
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How many generations do you think that an ancestor on a pedigree has influence in the progeny? Anyone?
Sippi
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3757
725 posts
Apr 27, 2008
6:38 AM
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Since DNA is inherited as a block, a gene locus and a marker should and will stay in association longer, the closer they are on the chromosome - if they are far away, the marker will fall out. If a family is inbreed and or line-breed closely for the specific characteristic of influence that characteristic will be much greater in my experience. It also depends on the selection for the particular influence of desire.
Since we are discussing pedigree value this is exactly what a pedigree is suppose to be used for and that is to help as part of a record of the desired characteristic that the breeder is trying to accomplish through breeding. A particular ancestor can have a large influence on that characteristic. Bill Pensom had pedigrees and records on all of his stock dating back to the turn of the century for the exact reason of maintaining those characteristics that he desired.
Last Edited by on Apr 27, 2008 6:40 AM
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Scott
415 posts
Apr 27, 2008
7:49 AM
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Sippi ,of coarse the ancestry plays in but the problem is what was used from then till now.
If the mating were bred from the past and paper chances are birds were used in the line that shouldnt have been and it is ruined or at least there is going to be a lot of work to get the entire package back.
If the line was bred towards the future then it can and will be a completly different bird from one that wasn't.
Myself I dont write peds unless the bird has prooven itself as worthy,plus I only breed with the future in mind.
Once you hit a particular point in your stock loft everything is going to be running so tight that the peds are nothing but "your" breeding records and everything else above it are just good interesting reads, and at that point the famous birds way up the ladder are really a mute point, well that is unless it says "Swallow" or some other show breed for color project LOL LOL LOL LOL.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Apr 27, 2008 7:56 AM
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dmitch
48 posts
Apr 27, 2008
8:59 AM
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To many generation for a true pedigree one would have to go back over three hunderd years or more.We have established so many cross in these birds who is to say if we realy have true birmingham rollers or North American cross,Orental,Whittingham,or what.
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3757
726 posts
Apr 27, 2008
9:50 AM
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Mitch - No offense but this has not been my experience with the individuals that I have known for the past 38 years. For example, I know a myriad of individuals who acquired stock directly from Bill Pensom and have maintain the birds through individual breeding based on performance. Where do the crosses lie? The same for Dr. Nordlund and Bill Yurga with fireballs. If you look back at Bills birds they go back to only about 6-8 birds in the black country. Please help me understand the logic of what "all of the crosses means"?
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MILO
923 posts
Apr 27, 2008
9:56 AM
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Don't know what has come over me...I am posting again...LOL Maybe it's getting PH&D in here.
Pedigrees have their purpose. It's not a selling tool. As long as that is understood, then it's all good. Don't you think Michael Jordan's illegit son would want to know who his father is? LOL JK. It's ok to make a paper trail. It won't kill you. If you breed open loft however, you can line the floor of the cages with them to catch the crap.
c
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Scott
418 posts
Apr 27, 2008
10:32 AM
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LaRon, I don't think that some understand how serious many take the breed and that many lofts derived down through just serious flying lofts from the imports , not from birds collected here and there and from questionable lofts or kids lofts.
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Just my Opinion
Scott
Last Edited by on Apr 27, 2008 11:00 AM
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dmitch
49 posts
Apr 27, 2008
10:57 AM
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Mr 3757 not all can say that becuse every body didnt get birds off of pensom.Most would have to go by what the breeder say.
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MILO
925 posts
Apr 27, 2008
11:26 AM
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Mitch.
What are you talking about? Everything on this continent was imported. What is your point? I am having a little trouble following your train of thought here. Are you posting based on assumptions?
Let me ask you this...What family of birds are you working with? If you aren't sure tell me who you got them from? I'd like to know. You may be surprised about even the birds you own.
c
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dmitch
50 posts
Apr 27, 2008
11:52 AM
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Milo my family of bird come from Norman Herrin.But do i know were his family of birds come from and so on and so on No and what they have cross in them no but i do know they have a nice body typ and spin.
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